So atheists, what if you are wrong

a reply to: borntowatch

I'm not an Atheist, but I will say I am golden either way . I guess I am Agnostic, I believe there is a creator, but I also believe the bible is a load of crap

The problem is, that no matter how hard you try to make yourself believe in something that your mind can't accept as truth, you still can't force your self to believe. I have tried, I desperately wanted to believe. I grew up in church, I went to church as an adult, I prayed and studied the bible. I have spent more time reading the bible than most Christians, yet my mind refuses to accept any of it as fact.

So what if I am wrong? Well, not much I can do about it until I see the evidence at death now can I?

originally posted by: borntowatch

You know what Mark

I am doing just that in this thread

Turning that question back on the believer who asked a question about belief in deity, an atheist who believes he is right and everyone else (who doesnt believe him) is wrong.

Thanks, I had an idea of that before but

Belief is a choice. Both sides need to accept it and move on. I fall on the side of believer, but I really don't care whether other people do or not.

I'm a believer, my partner is an Atheist. We are not at each other's throats over it. I just do my thing and they do their's and we share and enjoy the stuff we have in common,

We'd all be forgiven wouldn't we?

Also if we're wrong why are you so sure you're right? Maybe Zeus will be pissed you didn't worship him or the great juju of the mountains will be disgusted by your belief in the Christian version of god.

The thing i cant get over with religion is the belief that you're right and everyone elses god is wrong.

I just want to add that 99% of atheists would believe in any god that had some acual proof of existence. One piece of acual real evidence would be enough to change my mind. It would have to be real proof however. Not a gap in our current understanding of the universe and how it cam to be. Not an old book. Real scientific proof. Thats all it would take.

a reply to: borntowatch

I'd be much more open to a belief in God if his supporters didn't look down their spiritual noses at those that just aren't sure.

If believers really practiced what they preach of Biblical love and tolerance and lead by example, it could lead more to the faith but their spiritual arrogance turns people off.

Question your motives as to why you really started this thread.....

Your mocking attitude might answer your own questions.

originally posted by: mymymy
a reply to: borntowatch

I'm not an Atheist, but I will say I am golden either way

. I guess I am Agnostic, I believe there is a creator, but I also believe the bible is a load of crap

Funny thing about the god of the bible is that you can be complete atheist up til you reach the gates of heaven and repent, confess, and accept, so either way if you die an atheist and see God when you die, just convert right there and then, all is forgiven, end of story. But wait, that's according to catholic beliefs. So who is right? Christians, Catholics, Coptic, etc.?

So either way, people who are atheist you are safe. Those who are devout, have fun living a boring, closed minded life.

a reply to: markosity1973

Belief is a choice.

Hold on there. Not really.

Just like homosexuality is not a choice - neither is the capacity to believe in something that one simply does not believe in.

"Going to church" is a choice, and "reading the Bible" is a choice. But, taking it as fact in the face of all the ridiculous stories offered therein is, well - related to - how the brain is wired....

I will never believe, no matter how much I try, no matter if a bonfire is being lit beneath my skirts, no matter if a jihadist holds a knife to my neck. I can "say" that I believe.....but, I can't. Just like I can never be a lesbian, no matter how much I try. Now, we know that homosexuality is not a choice.

If "accepting dogma" is a choice, then what does that say about the mentality, desperation, and gullibility of those who spout "lip service" related to "I accept you, Jesus!"



(You know I love ya, Mark. Just saying.)

Hmmm. I'm not so sure about a couple of generalizations here. Starting with your statement that atheists claim "God doesnt exist and you are stupid for believing this stupid nonsense". I think the general consensus is, even among militant atheists, more like this... ''there isn't a lick of evidence to believe in religion, but if something comes along that proves one (of the thousands) is/are true, then we'd change our tune'. The problem here is that there is no more evidence for your religion than the thousands of others that have existed. I just don't believe in one less religion than you do. So before I even answer your question... why don't you believe in all the other religions?

Now, onto your question. I think the first thing I'd probably say if I was dead and standing in front of god (for this example we'll say the Christian god, since that's what you are alluding to) is "Dude, finally some evidence that you exist". Why did you do such a bad job of letting people know? I mean, it's just as bad as every other religion out there... you can see the conundrum right?

Now the whole morality thing...I'll probably ask why a genocidal, infanticidal, sadistic, immoral, cruel, sex-obsessed, tune-changing entity has any right to judge morality at all. I mean seriously god. What is the deal.

I'd probably then ask why he is such an ego-maniac that needs to be worshipped ad nauseum, how that can possibly make any sense for a supreme being to be wrapped up in such a petty human emotion. Sorry I didn't worship him, that just seems really weird. Man up god, don't be such a psychotic narcissist.

I may touch on some of the ways he carries out his "divine plan"... the children who suffer their entire lives, or are locked in a basement and raped repeatedly then murdered, never even having a chance to become 'saved', how that could possibly fit into any grand plan that makes sense. i.e. god, you did a pretty bad job as a creator.

That said, I'd probably then ask why he did such a poor job of designing life and humanity, both in design and on a climactic knife edge, both on our earth or in the universe.

Also Tthat he finally needs to take responsibility for blowing it and cut it with the whole "free will" hooey. He already knows how every person is going to turn out, so there was never 'free will' anyway. God is timeless. Oh, and why was he so incredibly wasteful in designing all of that massively destructive universe, I mean, we are a tiny tiny speck in it all. Why tell us we are important yet make us so absolutely insignificant?

In the end, I suppose you are really asking me what I'd do in the whole "save my soul" kinda way. I'd say to god "First and foremost, every good deed I did was for actual goodness, not because I thought I'd get something in return, not because I thought I'd get into heaven, or that you'd listen to my prayers, I did it because it was the right thing to do, and none of your greedy heaven-hungry disciples can say that. I loved the world, the universe, and the incredible story it has, I'm amazed by every little thing that had to happen in order for me to exist. I love life and lived that way. Kind-hearted, adventurous, fearless, and hungry to soak it all up. I stood in awe of the beauty of my fellow humans, animals, and plants. The quest for learning and sharing. The weird unexplainable thing that is love. So... god, and may I remind you of your horrendous moral track record... what's the right thing to do? Heaven? Hell? I know it's all just black and white with you, unlike how it actually is in the real world, so what are you going to do?

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

If I gave the beings I made the freedom to choose their own way ... then yeah, what they made out of what I gave them would likely end up being a mess because inevitably a lot of them would end up thinking they know better than me.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: markosity1973

Belief is a choice.

Hold on there. Not really.

Just like homosexuality is not a choice - neither is the capacity to believe in something that one simply does not believe in.

"Going to church" is a choice, and "reading the Bible" is a choice. But, taking it as fact in the face of all the ridiculous stories offered therein is, well - related to - how the brain is wired....

I will never believe, no matter how much I try, no matter if a bonfire is being lit beneath my skirts, no matter if a jihadist holds a knife to my neck. I can "say" that I believe.....but, I can't. Just like I can never be a lesbian, no matter how much I try. Now, we know that homosexuality is not a choice.

If "accepting dogma" is a choice, then what does that say about the mentality, desperation, and gullibility of those who spout "lip service" related to "I accept you, Jesus!"

Lolz buzzy,

I get where you are coming from - Yes I will go as far as to agree with you that we are basically inclined to believe or not.

My own family is a great example of that - my brother and I used to talk for hours at night when we were young on this subject. He is quite a skeptic whereas I am quite open minded.

The choice bit I was referring to was more the belief system i,e religion type etc. That part is definitely a choice. A person may choose to believe in God, Buddha, fairies or all three, but the basic belief in the mystical (or not) is kinda hardwired into us, I completely agree.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
Yeah, Pascal's wager. *yawn*

Try some Bertrand Russell.

it is a most astonishing thing that people can believe that this world, with all the things that are in it, with all its defects, should be the best that omnipotence and omniscience have been able to produce in millions of years. I really cannot believe it.

Argument from Incredulity, cool. "I can't believe something, therefore it is false." Powerful argument derived from solid logic, indeed. Akin to everything else that atheists produce.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

He continues with:

Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than [what we have now]?

Yes. If you believe otherwise, you are free to prove that it is even possible.

a reply to: ketsuko

Wow. That's all you got?

So - you think the world is just perfect, then. Got it.
No problems that you can see. No accountability on the part of the failure who 'designed' such a miserable mess.

I really, really think you and I are done, ketsuko. No further reason for discourse. I can't try any harder or work any longer on trying to understand your cognitive dissonance than I already have.

a reply to: drfresh

Real scientific proof. Thats all it would take.

If, as I suspect, our technology is too young to answer that question...

Would advanced mathematics do?

a reply to: Leahn

Argument from Incredulity, cool. "I can't believe something, therefore it is false." Powerful argument derived from solid logic, indeed. Akin to everything else that atheists produce.

What? Pascal was talking about 'taking the safe road' even if one doesn't really "believe it." I was just reading him yesterday while sitting in the dentist's office waiting for husband. An "Introduction to Philosophy" textbook.

Pascal is arguing from "fear" - from "blind obedience, just in case".

What freaking ever. Bullied into submission via intimidation and threats. Sounds like the mob.

a reply to: strongfp

Exactly, the God of the bible loves everyone unconditionally, but will not hesitate to throw you into a lake of fire for eternity if you screw up even once.

I don't believe our being here was luck or a weird set of big bang type circumstances, I believe we were placed here. But I don't believe he has made any contact with us. The biblical God with his commandments and all seems very insecure, and a God would not be like that. If we don't turn out like he hopes, we're like Doritos, he can always make more lol

I also feel that people can believe what they choose, as long as they don't shove it down our throats

originally posted by: calstorm
The problem is, that no matter how hard you try to make yourself believe in something that your mind can't accept as truth, you still can't force your self to believe. I have tried, I desperately wanted to believe. I grew up in church, I went to church as an adult, I prayed and studied the bible. I have spent more time reading the bible than most Christians, yet my mind refuses to accept any of it as fact.

So what if I am wrong? Well, not much I can do about it until I see the evidence at death now can I?

What do you think about the teachings of heaven and hell, and the holy Trinity, according to the Bible?

a reply to: ketsuko

And what could POSSIBLY be the benevolent reason for allowing this to happen, rather than just giving your "creation" the nuts and brains to keep their act together.......?????

WHAT TYRANNICAL torturer and abuser would DO THAT?
Huh?

Who would do that?
And to what end?

So "heaven" doesn't get 'overcrowded' or overrun with common "riff-raff" gainsayers and ne'er-do-wells?

Admit it - you, ketsuko, you mere mortal, will be APPALLED if you get there and see all the atheists and gays and liberal, bleeding heart socialists in heaven, won't you?? Even those of us who taunted and protested and held our own in these silly arguments. You would HATE that!!!


Well, guess what. You should have thought it through and been prepared.
*smh*

Borntowatch

What if the duality notion that you are right and everyone else is wrong, is not how the higher level operate and that all beings show what they are in action, not in the idol/view they create of the world, like Yeshua said in sheeps and goats and Buddha taught in the 8 fold path.

The whole pray to Jesus Idol to be saved is Paul teaching not Yeshua. Funny how most Christians see Yeshua as god but do not listen to his teachings but Paul:s instead even when they contradict.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Leahn

Argument from Incredulity, cool. "I can't believe something, therefore it is false." Powerful argument derived from solid logic, indeed. Akin to everything else that atheists produce.

What? Pascal was talking about 'taking the safe road' even if one doesn't really "believe it." I was just reading him yesterday while sitting in the dentist's office waiting for husband. An "Introduction to Philosophy" textbook.

Pascal is arguing from "fear" - from "blind obedience, just in case".

What freaking ever. Bullied into submission via intimidation and threats. Sounds like the mob.

Pascal was, but Bertrand Russel, whose quote I was replying to, was not.

a reply to: Leahn

Funny, the two writers were back to back in the text. I finished Pascal and went on to Russell.

Sorry, I agree with Russell.
"You can't make me," comes to mind.

You can make me SAY IT, but you can't MAKE ME BELIEVE.

If I misunderstood your post, my apologies.