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TERRORISM: Gang Member Tried As Terrorist

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posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 11:46 AM
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This is for billy bob and all the other "sheeple" out there...
DID YOU KNOW? it is far cheaper with new private prisons (one of the biggest pac groups out there) to jail someone than put them on welfare...

in other words, just jail all the poor people and put them in work camps...
just like the soviets did...

a very dangerous precident is being set here... it has nothing to do with the specific circumstances of this case... it is the missuse of the extension of power that we specifically granted to our government when our reps signed on to the patriot act... there was supposed to be NO abuse or misuse...

this precident gives the ,very human and capable of mistakes, government an excuse to jail anyone they want anytime they want without any rights...
(exactly what happened at the republican convention...) is that the country we want...
NOPE! no i don't want to kiss and hug Saddam... but i sure feel like we could be a lot stronger as a nation if we actually had a nation to be proud of as far as civil rights go...




posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
This is for billy bob and all the other "sheeple" out there...
DID YOU KNOW? it is far cheaper with new private prisons (one of the biggest pac groups out there) to jail someone than put them on welfare...

in other words, just jail all the poor people and put them in work camps...
just like the soviets did...

this precident gives the ,very human and capable of mistakes, government an excuse to jail anyone they want anytime they want without any rights...


hey, lazarus. reread my post. i was predicting the neocon rhetoric and spewing it for them. i was doing sarcasm.

i totally agree with you. making prisons a profitable business is wrong in so many ways, it's ridiculous. runaway police powers are the biggest danger to freedom there is. keep fighting the good fight, my thousand yr. old brother.



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 01:38 PM
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Sorry Billybob...
didn't see the sarcasm thru the scary comments...
so glad you were not serious...
very creative wit you have there... kudos...
keep up the good fight "young" brother

as to this crime... if the court wants to call this a terrorist act, then maybe we should let them... because then the government would also qualify as a terrorist agency, under such a loose interpretation...



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 02:20 PM
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From the article in at the top of this thread,



New York Gang Member Faces Trial as Terrorist

Morales is the first gang member in New York to be indicted under the state's terrorism statute, which became law shortly after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.



As another poster in this thread mentioned, this was a state of New York law that Morales was charged with violating.

I'll say it again so there is no mistake - it was a state law, not a federal law.

So why all the neocon and patriot act bashing? last I looked New York was solidly in the blue column and has been that way for a long time.

The way I see this, liberal politicians, judges and grand juries cannot be trusted to apply the law correctly in the context meant by their own liberal legislature. This bending of the legislatures intent is very dangerous in setting precedent and is one that I fear the most were liberals to gain control of the federal branches of government down the road, they cannot seem to resist interpreting new meaning into existing law.

Morales crime is certainly deserving of punishment, just not at the expense of setting a precedent that would break the dam so to speak.

If New York law did not have adaquate provision to punish Morales with one single law violation, then federal firearms law would add substantially to his sentence as well as compilation of many statutory state provisions violated.

Maybe the focus has to be on the sentencing rules the courts have to abide by. For instance if after morales was found guilty a judge could not sentence Morales to serve time non-concurrently then something needs to be changed in those rules.


The absolute abject knee-jerk reaction to this story by those seeking yet another way to indict neocons, conservatives and the Bush administration for laws passed and abused in a blue, blue state is astounding to say the least and shows an inability to objectively determine just whom is to blame for this dangerous precedent.

As far as the Patriot act is concerned since it was referenced by some in comparison to the New York law, I believe the federal act should be sunsetted as originally planned - did New York provide a sunset provision in its law?



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 02:35 PM
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I'd have to agree that gang members are a sort of well, terrorist. However, applying the rules and uncomfortable allowances for fighting real coordinated international terrorist networks to citizens, especially when they aren't direct members of those networks, is a real bad idea.



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 02:41 PM
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Oh yes this is all about one gangs "reign of terror" in a neighborhood. If this doesn't make you angry you are too stupid to live.
First of all 25 years ago this wouldn't have happened because everyone on the block would have had at least a .38 and no punk kid is gonna risk having the whole neighborhood gunning for him. Why is it the whole neighborhood doesn't have guns anymore? Oh wait that's right the government especially in New york has virtually banned civilian ownership of guns. You stupid liberals make me so sick, first you let them take our guns then when street gangs with ILLEGAL WEAPONS hold a whole neighborhood hostage because noone can fight back you applaud street gangs being called terrorists.

If there was half a brain cell present in the average citizen you would all wake up and smell the f-ing coffee!! THe government is not on your side! they aren't you're friends. Regardless of what you think of street gangs, this should make everyone who reads it very angry. Personally if these little punks would have been in my neighborhood about 15 minutes after they pulled their first stunt the police would have got an anonymous call and found the whole lot of them worse for the wear tied up in an alley.The problem with this is it sets a phenomenally dangerous legal precedent and a bi*** prosecutor who justify's something like that in 2 sentences that contain no statements of facts just her opinion ought to be hanging on the post next to this gang banger f-ck.



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by astral_ice
You stupid liberals make me so sick, first you let them take our guns then when street gangs with ILLEGAL WEAPONS hold a whole neighborhood hostage because noone can fight back you applaud street gangs being called terrorists.


Hold up a minute there skippy. I do believe you can still go buy a gun. No one has taken that right away. The fact is, the reason these kids dont get shot is because if you shot them, you go to jail. If you kill them, you go to jail for a long time. If you want to blame something, try going for a mix of parenting and economic upbringing. And if you are really feeling that sick, its probably to much of that conservative candy coated poop coverd peanuts you have been eating. I suggest some peptobismal with dash of common sense.



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 05:45 PM
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"Whichever party gains the day, tyrants or demagogues are most sure to take the offices."
Clinton Roosevelt, relative of Teddy and FDR, Assemblyman in New York legislature. 1841



Originally posted by Phoenix

The absolute abject knee-jerk reaction to this story by those seeking yet another way to indict neocons, conservatives and the Bush administration for laws passed and abused in a blue, blue state is astounding to say the least and shows an inability to objectively determine just whom is to blame for this dangerous precedent.


It's also very convenient to forget the party affiliation of the administration that started the trend of wide sweeping overbroad anti-terror legislation. Legislation that was passed in the wake of a terrorist attack with many unanswered questions and conspircy threories about it...

The police state's non-partisan.

Better living through denial I suppose.



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
Morales faces the most serious charge of second-degree murder as a terrorist act. A New York grand jury returned the charges against him in connection with the shooting death of 10-year-old Melanie Mendez, who died from gunshot wounds two years earlier


Thank God they could charge him with being a terrorist because as you know its legal to shot kids in New York.

This crap is just a stupid as "Hate Crimes" The man killed a child why do you need to charge him as a terrorist? Maybe to set a precedent so we dont have deal with all those pesky constitutional problems?

Dont get me wrong try him and hang him, but do it for killing a child not merely as a way to further the Governments agenda



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 05:57 PM
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Originally posted by astral_ice
First of all 25 years ago this wouldn't have happened because everyone on the block would have had at least a .38 and no punk kid is gonna risk having the whole neighborhood gunning for him.


Ah, now that would be Utopia. A whole neighborhood that dashes to the window, locked and loaded, every time they hear a car backfire. Are you NUTS?! It is a persons right to own a firearm. They have value for sport, for home defense, and in extreme cases for what Abraham Lincoln called "our revolutionary right" to overthrow a government which does not represent our interests. To encourage the proliferation of firearms for use in vigilantism is a whole other animal, and a completely unacceptable option.
What you suggest is analagous to advocating TOTAL proliferation of nuclear weapons to ALL nations because "it would create stability".



If there was half a brain cell present in the average citizen you would all wake up and smell the f-ing coffee!! THe government is not on your side!

Corruption is VERY real and the people can not get everything they want, but on issues like this we can still have our say and we can win. Vigilantism is not the answer.


Personally if these little punks would have been in my neighborhood about 15 minutes after they pulled their first stunt the police would have got an anonymous call and found the whole lot of them worse for the wear tied up in an alley.

You know, they say the empty can rattles the most.



The problem with this is it sets a phenomenally dangerous legal precedent and a bi*** prosecutor who justify's something like that in 2 sentences that contain no statements of facts just her opinion ought to be hanging on the post next to this gang banger f-ck.


Although your language and lack of control over what could otherwise be called righteous anger are not helping your case, i agree with you on the underlying principle here. Not that we ought to kill the prosecutor, but that we ought to demand strict interpretation and disciplined conduct from our law enforcement and justice systems.
It rides right along with that however that we owe it to these public servants to equip them with the laws and processes to protect us. It reflects poorly on the people and government of New York that they have not recognized the problem and enated laws to provide legitimate consequences for these gangmembers.



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 01:55 AM
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Seeing as these gangs form due to your countries 'more privilidges to the privilidged, and less for the needy' policies, and the fact they can get weapons so readily is your people seem to feel that having weapons in every home is a good way to run a country, i dont think they should be prosecuted as terrorist... I'm not defending them for shooting a 10y/o, thats just wrong. But its the same reason people turn to terrorism (most of the time, i'm sure some are crazy and evil), they have nothing left to turn to, their lives are #, so they take the blame out on someone.

What next though? Will pulling faces that can be considered scary be terrorism... how about hollywood producers who make horror films that scare people #less everyday... yep terrorists... or what about that administration of yours, making your people feel their in danger and scaring you so they can control you and your lives alot more... nah thats not terrorism....



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 02:18 AM
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Nobody is sympathising with gang members, we have and have had laws in place to deal with murder, extortion, what have you. Like Billybob said, What the issue here is the legal precedent this sets to apply the patriot act to domestic crime. Have you right wing nut jobs actually read the patriot act or did you just nod your head and turn the channel to the latest episode of Cops? If you have then Kudos, if you did read it and it didn't make you realize the vague definitions could include you or your kids when they check out the 'wrong' book at their local library, then you really need to understand the extent of the damage this act has caused... Odd, but nobody who voted on the damn thing read it. The ones who voiced their concerns got anthrax in the mail or like Senator Wellstone, they had a little accident. Go to the Library, check out a book on Islamic Culture, then sit back and watch as your rights are raped and you are profiled along with gang members. This gang member is a thug, a criminal, nobody is arguing that he shouldn't be prosecuted, but bringing the Patriot Act into the courts against a US Citizen with no ties to international terrorism is sickening. Like I said in an earlier thread, Folks like you are going to be cheering and waving your little flags while they haul folks like me off in rail cars. Frankly that scares the Chit out of me. Nazi, Facist, call it what you like, but the citizens of late 30's era Germany thought their government was right to pass similar anti-terrorism legislation as well. Hell man, the Bush Family was part of the Bankroll for the Nazi Party in Germany, now we are letting the same folks pass laws and start wars here... Wake up.



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 02:55 AM
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terrorism Audio pronunciation of "terrorism" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)
n.

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

well, that about sums it up right there. that makes grafitti punishable by death under the patriot act.

ok so where do we draw the line? the guy in the said article deserved to be put to death if the allegations are/were proven true. however, as i (sarcastically) mentioned that would make it possibly to try someone and have them put to death if they spraypainted a politcal message on a wall. you probably say it will never come to that but if was your /kid/friend/lover who got tried because of some BS like this imagine how you would FEEL...



posted on Jan, 4 2005 @ 10:03 AM
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Originally posted by specialasianX
But its the same reason people turn to terrorism (most of the time, i'm sure some are crazy and evil), they have nothing left to turn to, their lives are sh*t, so they take the blame out on someone.


I believe you are gong too far here. It is very easy to sit back and tell people whats wrong with their country, but its a temptation best avoided. How can one have a deep understanding of something they haven't been in the midst of and gotten a good look at?
I'm from the same place that gang members are from. I know dealers, users, brawlers, and yes, gang members. These are not revolutionaries or even rebels. These are unquestioning followers.
People don't wake up one day and decide that their neighborhood is so awful and they're so oppressed that they're going to be resort to violence as an act of rebellion.
What does happen is this. Guys get picked on and fight. The looser comes back with friends. The guy who got jumped comes back with more friends, then somebody gets a weapon. This goes on from a young age until forever, and things keep getting worse. Guys get to thinking their real hard cases.
Then toughguys like that sometimes meet dealers and they get into dealing or using drugs or protecting people who do, because there's money in that if you can fight. Congratulations- you just became a pawn on the arse end of a major organized crime racket.

Gang members are not just desperate people striking back at their oppressors. These are short sighted people who enlist themselves as soldiers of organized crime so that they can be a badarse, or make money, or get drugs. And don't bother telling me I dont know. These are my friends and my enemies we're talking about. I can get on the phone and ask one of them to be sure if you don't believe me.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 09:51 PM
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"hey, lazarus. reread my post. i was predicting the neocon rhetoric and spewing it for them. i was doing sarcasm."

In some on line chat places they call this behavior 'Trolling' and frown on it.
Sarcasm is tough to 'get' when there is no voices to hear.


For the people who say 'he is being charged with a NY law' a question and a comment.

Do you feel better that YOUR civil liberties can be violate by a state. What if a county sheriff decide you were a terrorist and used the provision of the PA to throw you in his little jail and tell no one. The this misuse of the PA allows this


Comment; the state versions of the PA are enabled and empowered by the federal law. They came into being by being inserted from above.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 09:59 PM
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The trashing of the constitution has begun. Its incredible how now anyone who brakes any law is a terrorist.
The more time goes by the more i realize 9/11, the terrorists and all events following this concocted by this government to lead us purposefully into police state. Why on earth cant u see this



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:26 PM
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.
When the government uses a screwdriver as a pry-bar you are likely to end up with a bent screwdriver.

The use of terrorist laws against other criminal activity misdirects their intent and points to muddled thinking, writing them, implementing them, and supporting them.

In the long run the 'I have a hammer' so will look at everything as a nail may be 'good enough' for sloppy thinkers, but indicates what dull witted, uninspired place America has become.

Instead of Dazzling brilliance lighting the way and leading us, we have clumsy, ham handed, meat headed, herders to try to make us a single dumb mass.

do you hear a *moo* ?
.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:50 PM
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I like the 'Black Hand' gang. They solve mysteries.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 12:25 AM
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Well it seems there is another connection of gang related terrorists the MS-13, La Mara Salvatrucha and al-Qaida, I also read in a local paper here in Ontario a few years back that the Canadian Government allowed seven thousand (sp)’Tamil Tigers’as they call them selves to immigrate to Canada On, Toronto. I can see the reasoning in treating these gangs as terrorist but it is a very fine line that will undoubtedly result in government abuse.



La Mara Salvatrucha, MS-13

East Boston gang linked to al-Qaida
Boston, MA, Jan. 5 (UPI) -- Boston police are "turning up the heat" on a violent East Boston gang recently linked to the al-Qaida terrorist network, the Boston Herald said Wednesday.
The gang, La Mara Salvatrucha or MS-13, has roots in El Salvador and been tied to machete attacks, rapes and home invasions. But intelligence officials in Washington have warned in recent weeks that al-Qaida members have been seen in El Salvador with MS-13 members, raising concerns the Link

Related:
Port Police Arrest 8 MS-13 Gang Members

A SOUTH AMERICAN IMPORT



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 12:47 AM
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No that's not it, they had pictures and you had to read the page and look at the picture opposite to help solve the mysteries. Sort of like being an honorary member you know. Nothing to do with terrorism just innocent clues. I think god must be a terrorist, lots of people fear him but to my knowledge he was never a member of the 'Black Hand' gang but not all of their books are available in Australia so I could be wrong. We have biker gangs in Australia too but they are patriots for the most part I think.



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