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The "Gun Show Loophole" and Other Myths

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posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 02:50 PM
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a reply to: Answer

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT

You said in the above post:

[quote] I said that people from the UK base their beliefs on the propaganda and aren't fully aware of the situation so they should stay out of the argument. That's a suggestion, not a command.

You're talking semantics. You told them to stay out of it because of a statistically-unsupported opinion of propaganda affecting them on this subject. But whether you call your own statement a "command" or an "instruction", you are trying to influence other members' rights to participate in the discussion.

You do -- not -- have -- that -- right.

Let's get something clear. This is an international site (founded by an Englishman, by the way), and part of its maxim is that all threads in the public forum areas are open to contribution to all members, regardless of their nationality, ethnicity, gender, opinion or degree of knowledge. About 95% of the world's population do not live in the USA, so do not be surprised if those 95% hold varying opinions to your. Please bear in mind also they though some don't share your opinions and dissension is to be expected, such dissension may be beneficial for both sides in helping to "deny ignorance".

It is not your job to determine if the member "should" participate or not. You job is to present your own case and make sure that if you perceive another (American or otherwise) is mislead by what you perceive to be propaganda, then provide reasoned argument, advice and references to set them right.

This forum is not the place to voice your disapproval over staff actions. If you have an issue with staff, please the compliant button and take up the matter in the correct, approved way -- as many others have done.

Now, please get back to the topic! Thank you.

PLEASE do not respond to this post.

edit on 4/8/15 by JustMike because: fixed quote tags and bold edit tags; other typos




posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 02:55 PM
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It is not a strawman. My point is that violent crime is the problem and eliminating guns does not stop violent crime.


Which is a perfect example of a strawman. In fact that's probably one of the most prefect example of a starwamen argument i've ever seen. I will be referring to that in future posts about any subject (bookmarking now).



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:02 PM
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originally posted by: MrMasterMinder


It is not a strawman. My point is that violent crime is the problem and eliminating guns does not stop violent crime.


Which is a perfect example of a strawman. In fact that's probably one of the most prefect example of a starwamen argument i've ever seen. I will be referring to that in future posts about any subject (bookmarking now).



A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.


Call it what you want but I'm not going to look at "gun crime" in a vacuum like your media has chosen to do. It is a part of a bigger problem that needs to be addressed.

Gun crime is a symptom, not the disease.



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: Answer



A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument which was not advanced by that opponent.


Yes thank you for looking that definition up and presenting it. when talking about gun crime stick guns and don't trying to include other types of generalized crime. That's the general idea.

Stop using strawman arguments because it proves you have no solid point to make.


edit on 4-8-2015 by MrMasterMinder because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:16 PM
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Double post removed. Sorry folks. No idea how that happened.
edit on 4/8/15 by JustMike because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:22 PM
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Repeat Double post removed. Sorry folks. Still no idea how that happened.
edit on 4/8/15 by JustMike because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: MrMasterMinder
a reply to: Answer

Yes when talking about gun crime stick guns and don't trying to include other types of generalized crime. That's the general idea. Stop using strawman arguments because it proves you have no solid point to make.



Violent crime is not "generalized crime."

I'm talking about crime committed with the intent to harm others. Guns are obviously part of that picture.

Gun crime is down but people think it's worse.

Why does a UK news site have an entire section devoted mostly to gun-related crime in the US?

UK gun laws are clearly working...

From the source:

Sir Paul Condon, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, expressing fears of an emerging "gun culture" on the streets of Britain's inner cities. Estimates of illegal weapons range from 500,000 to a million or more, perhaps many more.

The Dunblane tragedy is bound to lead to calls for tighter gun control. But what more could be done - short of banning all gun ownership outside the hands of the armed forces and police - to tighten up what its advocates argue is already one of the world's tighter gun regimes?

Significant numbers among the one million or so people who shoot - anything from air pistols, to Olympic gunmen to wildfowlers and deer hunters - have been driven from the sport, according to Robin Peal, the BASC's head of public affairs - "people who couldn't be bothered with the hassle".

Past mental illness is taken into account in issuing certificates, but beyond that "it is virtually impossible for a doctor to make a judgement about someone's fitness to hold a gun," according to the BMA. Doctors were also worried about what would happen "if they provided a certificate and the individual then went out and shot a lot of people. Would the doctor, somehow, be held responsible for a judgement he could not really make?"


Interesting statement from the doctor... certainly coincides with the recent push in the US for psychological evaluations for gun buyers.

As I said before, when strict gun laws prove to be ineffective, where do you go from there? Focusing on the root cause of crime is too difficult, apparently. It is now so difficult to legally buy a gun that lawful gun enthusiasts are giving up... leaving guns only in the hands of criminals.


Despite the country’s stringent gun laws, newspaper reports indicate that illegal handguns can be purchased for £50–100 (approximately US$70–155). In 2002 a Member of Parliament stated that there are some inner-city areas “in which it is now easier to buy an illegal gun than to find a taxi in the rain.” Newspapers reported that in the two years after the ban on handguns enacted after the Dunblane massacre the number of crimes in which handguns were carried increased by 40%.
Source



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:38 PM
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a reply to: Answer

It seems to me you are anti gun while being pro gun at the beggining

Confusing ?

Greg
edit on 4-8-2015 by Greg987 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: Answer



Violent crime is not "generalized crime."

I'm talking about crime committed with the intent to harm others. Guns are obviously part of that picture.


Yes it is more generalized because as you pointed out guns are only part of it. Not sure why you are having trouble comprehending that.

Also violent crime is crime committed using or threatening "force" (which is a general term in it self) against others not "harm" so yet again you have tried to present your views based on an incorrect understanding/definition.


edit on 4-8-2015 by MrMasterMinder because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 04:59 PM
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originally posted by: Answer
Why are UK members of ATS so heavily invested in America's gun debate?


The answer to that one is very simple.

Because a large percentage of American's on the internet can't understand that the culture in the UK is different so they try and display some kind of moral superiority complex about gun ownership, to the degree where it becomes obnoxious nauseating preaching.

And when something reaches that level, you have to expect a person who lives in a free country and has probably only ever seen a gun at airport security and doesn't feel the need or desire to own one at all, to question why people in the US are so damned obsessed with them, and come up with all kinds of excuses as to why they need them to the point that they want to carry assault weapons when they go to a supermarket.

TLDR version - because gun owners in the US can't stop preaching to other people.



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 05:31 PM
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originally posted by: Greg987
a reply to: Answer

It seems to me you are anti gun while being pro gun at the beggining

Confusing ?

Greg


How on earth have you gotten that from what I've said?



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 05:33 PM
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a reply to: MrMasterMinder

You've proven that you want to cherry pick a single line from my posts and argue semantics.

You ignored every other thing I said in that post to focus on a single statement and call me "wrong" because it doesn't fit the exact definition.

I'm not wasting my time responding to any more of your nonsense.



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 05:35 PM
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a reply to: neformore

It's gone way beyond that but ok.



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 06:36 PM
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a reply to: Answer
Just by cliaming its semantics doent make it true. The fact on the other hand is that some gun crime is only part of 'violent crime' which makes violent crime more generalized than gun crime. Its unfortunate that you are having a hard time understanding basic definitions of words and terms.


(post by Answer removed for a manners violation)

posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 09:31 PM
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originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: SPECULUM
And here we have the best example why there could be so much gun-crime with unregistered weapons. But hey, they can tell you are cool.


No..Most folks don't like unkle sammy poking their nose in their business.

Gun Crimers steal guns or make them in machine shops out of legal parts kits you can buy anywhere...NO FFL OR NFA rules apply



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 09:34 PM
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originally posted by: Answer
a reply to: SPECULUM

Well since there's no such thing as a "yellow sheet" the rest of your post is not exactly what I'd call "up to date information."

If you know dealers who are keeping guns "off book", they're breaking the law.


Lol..They still use yellow sheets at gun shops, and no one cares about their laws..SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 09:38 PM
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originally posted by: SPECULUM

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: SPECULUM
And here we have the best example why there could be so much gun-crime with unregistered weapons. But hey, they can tell you are cool.


No..Most folks don't like unkle sammy poking their nose in their business.

Gun Crimers steal guns or make them in machine shops out of legal parts kits you can buy anywhere...NO FFL OR NFA rules apply


Realy now..? So whats the exact percentage of criminals steal guns for crime or making them?

whats your definition of a "gun crimer" by the way?

edit on 4-8-2015 by MrMasterMinder because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 09:48 PM
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originally posted by: Answer

originally posted by: verschickter
a reply to: SPECULUM
And here we have the best example why there could be so much gun-crime with unregistered weapons. But hey, they can tell you are cool.


There is no gun registry in the US. A couple of states have it but it is not nationwide.

SPECULUM is talking about a legal activity of selling privately owned firearms. If those dealers are actually keeping guns off of their books to sell without a background check, they're corrupt and breaking the law.

A large number of guns used in crimes come from "straw purchases" which are already illegal. Also, corrupt dealers account for a large percentage and that is, again, already illegal.



A yellow sheet is Not a Gun registration. Its the dealers federal form he must keep as part of their accounting for BATF before a gun is ever sold to a customer, along with their gun book. and once they retire their business they must release all shop history to the feds. although the feds come in from time to time to read through them...Been there seen that..


Their personal guns they keep at home even go in the books and BATF even searches their homes for undocumented firearms..Lol

Learn gun shop before elaborating Dude. I got 30 years at this



posted on Aug, 4 2015 @ 09:50 PM
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originally posted by: SPECULUM

originally posted by: Answer
a reply to: SPECULUM

Well since there's no such thing as a "yellow sheet" the rest of your post is not exactly what I'd call "up to date information."

If you know dealers who are keeping guns "off book", they're breaking the law.


Lol..They still use yellow sheets at gun shops, and no one cares about their laws..SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED


No, they don't use yellow sheets at gun shops.

I'm a dealer. No part of the required forms for purchasing a firearm are yellow.



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