Dajjal is Dead?

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

It is apparent that you are quite educated on the various scriptures and their coinciding historic accounts, much of what you wrote has gone way past my head. Interestingly enough Saul is mentioned in the Quran - his arabic name referencing that which is 'tall' in nature:

''And their prophet said to them, "Indeed, Allah has sent to you Saul as a king." They said, "How can he have kingship over us while we are more worthy of kingship than him and he has not been given any measure of wealth?" He said, "Indeed, Allah has chosen him over you and has increased him abundantly in knowledge and stature. And Allah gives His sovereignty to whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing [in favor] and Knowing." (Quran)

But not mentioned in a bad light, according to Islam as it is in other scriptures or texts you suggested.

Obtained from online texts:

Talut is also mentioned in the Hadith literature thus: "Narrated Al-Bara: The companions of (the Prophet) Muhammad who took part in Badr, told me that their number was that of Saul's (i.e. Talut's) companions who crossed the river (of Jordan) with him and they were over three-hundred-and-ten men. By Allah, none crossed the river with him but a believer.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


but let's be rational, the prophet was a rock-star, and just as Jesus showed us by handing out his flesh like bread and his blood like wine, everyone wants a bite of you when you are elevated above the others, they drink your blood as if it was water or wine— and much has been said and written about him and much has been attributed to the good lord, that is hardly genuine. These later wisdom traditions often contain material that would better be described as pseudepigrapha, or, wisdom attributed to-, or written in honor to certain men of God.

Yep I see your point - and Islamic scholars should agree, but as with all things in religion, guidance is sought with sincerity of the heart, faith in God - and of course our God given intelligence to reflect on various knowledge, in that way we can only hope that we are accepting the right guidance - we will only ever know so much as humans - things get lost in time and translations and thus a Muslim and I am sure followers of other faiths will place their trust in God for the correct guidance.

Not at all, I read your replies here with great joy. And I apologise for being arrogant, you're a good guy.

I am very much pleased that we can in fact engage in this peaceful exchange of knowledge, and have an intellectual discourse! I wish it was always like this on ATS Apologies if I may have communicated in an offensive tone !

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

Are you sure you are not talking about Saul the king of Rehoboth-Ir here, written about in the Torah and not the nemesis of king David? What does the Koran say about King David btw?

The Shaul mentioned in Genesis 36:37-38 was a king of Rehoboth an area near Nineveh. The proper noun Sha'owl is nearly identical to the Hebrew name of «The Unseen» AKA «The Kingdom of Death». However the name of the king, Saul, is given as «Asked [of]» in BDB and Gesenius refers to him as patron of the Shaulites whom Numbers 26:13 lists as the last of Simeon's tribes, but this may not be the same person. Apparently he was a just king and reigned around the River Euphrates (that's the river reference right there). He is called Shaul of Rehoboth on the Euphrates (Heb. the River).

Samlah [Strong's: «Cloathes»] died, and Shaul [BDB: «Asked Of»] of Rehoboth [given in Gen. 10:11 as a place near Nineveh] on the Euphrates [lit. «hannahar», «The River»] reigned in his place. Shaul died, and Baal-hanan [«Baal/Lord is Gracious»] the son of Achbor [BDB: «Mouse»] reigned in his place. [ESV] Genesis 36:37-38

Baalhanan in Hebrew means «Baal/Lord is Gracious» which reflects the Jahveh-Baal division that's found throughout the Torah and the rest of OT. The odd definition of the name of his father, Heb. «Achbor» here, given as «Mouse», is not to be confused with the Arabic word used when praising «God is Great» (though it's probably word-play between big and small, as above so below &c.) the given definition here is apparently written as in Arabic (would you care to translate that for me and provide an Arabic definition for the word? I would appreciate that if you'd care to. Also when the Philistines regretted stealing the Ark of the Covenant in 1 Samuel 6, they put five golden tumors and five golden mice (same word, probably plural in the language of the Philistines, Akbore) into the Ark upon returning it. The Golden Ark gave them tumors. Talking of mice— I'd like to recommend the graphic novel Maus (two books) written and illustrated by Art Spiegelman, it's a lovely story. Everyone should read it I think, it's about finding solutions where there are none. Great stuff.

ETA: Now look what you've done, my desk is littered down with books


ETA2: This word came to me as an epiffany, I've been searching for these Kings of the East that cross the Euphrates, finally it looks like I have found a clue as to whom they are, they are the Saulites of Rehoboth-Ir. And this is also where we are in Revealed history, sixth vial, the good lord is near, I bet!

The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, to prepare the way for the kings from the east. [ESV] Revelation 16:12

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
Not at all, I read your replies here with great joy. And I apologise for being arrogant, you're a good guy.

I am very much pleased that we can in fact engage in this peaceful exchange of knowledge, and have an intellectual discourse! I wish it was always like this on ATS

Apologies if I may have communicated in an offensive tone !

I couldn't agree more to be honest or amen to that as the good lord might agree.

It is more than possible to keep these discussions on an intellectual level speaking in terms of science and admitting to human weakness and how time and retelling stories have a few flaws— miscopying, typos, mistranslations, misinterpretations, even straight out forgeries and pervasive doctrinal interpolations— all religions of this world should be more humble in their approach to truth and admit to the unique human ability to screw up and twist truth for political gain or just for the hell of it, or even man's tendency to err in such utter fallacy it defies all sense to turn lies into doctrinal law providing capital punishment for breaking it, with videos made available straight off of youtube.

Truth is the first casualty of any war. That's why all these religions were conceived and born in times of war, turmoil and unrest. The books containing their honors are often written in a way that you fear challenging it. But that's how lies are spread, my friend, and should be understood as a warning, that it is a sign, not of omnipotency and truth, but of weakness and fallacy, it demands oaths and blind submission— when things are taught with fear as main engine, we all suffer. The truth shall set us free and bring joy, not bind us in shackles and commit us to injustice and slavery.

Like you say, the way we understand the utterances of the good lord is weighed in our hearts, but also in our kidneys, and if they escape the light of our minds and sense, it's a trick of shadows and darkness, we should not submit to it, but as it is the light that produces shadows, they serve their purpose. Finally, we must never be so fixed at the good outcome long after Harmagheddon and beyond the horizon— that we become blind to injustice and evil done in the names of gods.

Keep up the good work!

ETA: Guess this is your day off, it's Friday. I rest in between days, or to be honest I find none. I haven't had a day off for as long as I have lived. Only in sleep do I sometimes get the illusion of calm and freedom, for the language is different in dreams, and we don't do mistakes there, we make up for them and sort them out, we learn from what we have done and sort of rewind the cyclus so you can wake up with a sort of tabula rasa with new chances of doing something good. However, sometimes we wake up where all karma sucks, and instead of resolve, we end up in loops where we are constantly reminded of our faulty nature and our general unholiness. Even as we became flesh we challenged life and millions of lifeforms dies for our hand every day, both directly (just think of all the bacteria, ants and flies we kill during a day) and indirectly (through pollution, slaying rainforests, GMO, the bloody bees are disappearing for heaven's sake). But there is indeed a spark of the divine inside everyone of us, it's up to each and one of us to turn that spark into good light. Let Science be our stronghold, and truth be our guidance and may our desire to do good and right be our standart.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Hey apologies for the late response, I do in fact tend to take time off around weekends. I'm very much pleased with your level of knowledge, it's refreshing to read your posts! The fact that that you have many books as you suggest 'littering your desk' makes me imagine you as real-life Professor Henry Walton Jones, Sr from Indiana Jones - so please keep up your good works.

Can I suggest that you pick up an english translated copy of the Quran one day and take a spin through, merely for the historical aspect in regards to our discussion, it may help provide you with additional historical accounts for comparison.

With regards to Saul, yes in the Quran Saul (Talut) is refered to as a king of Israel. Alongside Saul,the Kings Solomon and David are also mentioned in the Quran.


What the Quran says briefly about King Saul -

He's name references that which is tall in stature, and he was presented to the israelites as their appointed King, as decreed by God. Saul was not from a particular established lineage (to which the Israelite opposed his appointment as King), but described as Pious. Samuel is not mentioned by name in the Quran but he's personality as a figure was referenced in verses 246-248 of Surah Al-Baqarah. King Saul lead forth armies across a river to fight Goliath and his forces. The river being referenced here I believe is the Jordan river (shariah river) which runs between Palestine and Jordan.


What the Quran says briefly about King David -

There are many narrations, it is stated in the Quran that David was regarded as a holy prophet, whom as a child slayed the giant Goliath and inherited the kingdom after the death of Talut (Saul) and Samuel. The Psalms where given to King David by God, showing that God did indeed favour some prophets above others showing how well regarded David was in the eyes of God He was also given other virtues of power by God.

What the Quran says briefly about the Ark of the covenant -
It is said that the Israelites carried with them a chest containing relics and treasures from the family of their Prophets Moses and Aaron, you can find the particular verse (2:248) of chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow

There is much more off course the Quran is over 600 Pages.

For further reading on the abov see the article:

www.islamreligion.com...

It combines the previous descriptions with some further analysis and added historical accounts that you might find interesting.

As for the snippet you included and say is in Arabic, I'm afraid I couldn't have it translated as an Arabic word with meaning, and might I suggest that it could be an Urdu word instead of Arabic, maybe you can verify with another person.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim


It is more than possible to keep these discussions on an intellectual level speaking in terms of science and admitting to human weakness and how time and retelling stories have a few flaws— miscopying, typos, mistranslations, misinterpretations, even straight out forgeries and pervasive doctrinal interpolations— all religions of this world should be more humble in their approach to truth and admit to the unique human ability to screw up and twist truth for political gain or just for the hell of it, or even man's tendency to err in such utter fallacy it defies all sense to turn lies into doctrinal law providing capital punishment for breaking it, with videos made available straight off of youtube.

I agree, it can be overwhelming sometimes when you consider these factors, it's easy to get lost when seeking truth, or finding the right guidance, but if you are a religious person then indeed this is part of what faith is all about, trusting in a higher power to help you sift through the forgeries, avoid the deceptions, and find the knowledge that will benefit you above all.

Truth is the first casualty of any war. That's why all these religions were conceived and born in times of war, turmoil and unrest. The books containing their honors are often written in a way that you fear challenging it. But that's how lies are spread, my friend, and should be understood as a warning, that it is a sign, not of omnipotency and truth, but of weakness and fallacy, it demands oaths and blind submission— when things are taught with fear as main engine, we all suffer. The truth shall set us free and bring joy, not bind us in shackles and commit us to injustice and slavery.

Well said, it all boils down to the human condition, it's inescapable. The chaos that man leaves in his wake when attempting to dictate what he believes to be the truth is fueled by his own weaknesses.We have brains, we have instincts and reasoning and a whole array of tools to help us find the real truth and avoid the deceptions put in place by man whether it was done for personal gain or out of ignorance. Ultimately however, as a religious person myself, I feel true enlightenment can only be reached with the aid of a higher power.

We must humble ourselves when seeking knowledge both individually and collectively so as not to become arrogant, ignorant or blind sighted, and to accept that we as humans are limited in our capacity to attain knowledge of all things and that ultimately the knowledge we seek with sincerity is only granted if a higher power (the source of knowledge) wills it to be. This is having faith.

I hope we both find the truth we seek by all and every means.

Just want to thank you for your wise words and insights, I shall reflect on them

ETA: Only in sleep do I sometimes get the illusion of calm and freedom, for the language is different in dreams, and we don't do mistakes there, we make up for them and sort them out, we learn from what we have done and sort of rewind the cyclus so you can wake up with a sort of tabula rasa with new chances of doing something good.

In Islam it said that as you sleep, your soul leaves your body so that you die each time you fall asleep, only to be brought back into your body again when you awaken. I read somewhere that a soul can experiences pain and emotions and that this is known by the fact that we dream.

Interestingly dreams have a strong basis in Islam, there are narrations in the Quran that talk about interpreting dreams. Aslo, a hadeeth mentions:

“The clearest among you in his dreams are the clearest among you in his faith. If you speak the truth all the time, then your dreams will be true, but if you speak lies all the time then your dreams will be false.”

^Take from that what you will, I think perhaps when you feel more content in life, when you have a clear conscious and do righteous acts and in your heart you feel sincerely you are doing good, you sleep easy, your dreams are more clear and reflect the character that you project into reality, the nature of the dream has a more defined purpose and their is less confusion
What about the dreams of those that do the opposite? Your dreams might appear to depict things that have contradictory meanings, that reflect a guilty conscious..? The overall tone of the dream is uncertainty and confusion...Hmm getting to deep here

However, sometimes we wake up where all karma sucks, and instead of resolve, we end up in loops where we are constantly reminded of our faulty nature and our general unholiness.

This is interesting, I believe this is something that most people (who are aware of such things) can relate to, perhaps those that are more in tune with a type of belief system that encourages more frequent reflections on our weaknesses as a creation.

In Arabic, the word Insan is a word that is both plural and singular, and translated directly it means 'those who have forgotten' in other words those who are prone to be forgetful. It is also used as a term for human beings in the Quran. The term encompasses many things, one of which is the non-psychical traits of a human being i.e. forgetfulness - and I guess the point I am making here is that a Muslim understands many times in life he will stray from the righteous path out of forgetfulness by will continually return in remembrance to belief and the higher power (source of knowledge). Forgetfulness can lead us to unholiness, and make us dwell on our perceived imperfections and faults, but I personally don't see forgetfulness as a fault in itself as much as it is an intended weakness to continually return to the remembrance of our origin and purpose.

Even as we became flesh we challenged life and millions of lifeforms dies for our hand every day, both directly (just think of all the bacteria, ants and flies we kill during a day) and indirectly (through pollution, slaying rainforests, GMO, the bloody bees are disappearing for heaven's sake). But there is indeed a spark of the divine inside everyone of us, it's up to each and one of us to turn that spark into good light.

Completely agree, I truly believe everyone has a spark of good light inside them (except for Dajjal of course ). Humans have natural tendencies to be kind and caring, benevolent and loving, and to say hello when we greet each other, and to be charitable when we remove obstacles from a path that can harm others, we have this inner craving to want to do good, and have a clear conscious. Unfortunately this spark can be suppressed sometimes, and everyone must follow their own path in this regard, because this is a spark that comes from your own heart. It is how you react in times of war, turmoil, in the age of violence and chaos that determines who you are as an individual. The choices that you make in any situation, when others around you are doing wrong, will shape you as a character and define you as a person.

originally posted by: ISeekTruth101
a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Hey apologies for the late response, I do in fact tend to take time off around weekends. I'm very much pleased with your level of knowledge, it's refreshing to read your posts! The fact that that you have many books as you suggest 'littering your desk' makes me imagine you as real-life Professor Henry Walton Jones, Sr from Indiana Jones

- so please keep up your good works.

Hehe. Thanks, but I'm not easily flattered. To be honest I can't stand parents and teachers and such who spin up all kinds of delusions in the little ones' heads, making them believe they have what it takes when in fact they are mediocre and below par in most things. When these people enter real life, they have nothing. Only the best is good enough, as far as I'm concerned. But aye, thanks for your kind words. Hehe Henry Sr., haha. Never heard that before

Can I suggest that you pick up an english translated copy of the Quran one day and take a spin through, merely for the historical aspect in regards to our discussion, it may help provide you with additional historical accounts for comparison.

And I will, it's just I don't feel ready quite yet. First time I read anything from the Bible, I was passed twenty, but I went all in, and the result is most of my books relate in one way or the other to the Bible or language. I don't think I have studied the Bible enough yet, my Greek is terrible for instance and I still have volumes to read about church history and other important hermeneutica. But in time, I will indeed read the Koran, for it is important to understand what happened in the wakes of it, in a hermeneutical sense. But aye, I will read it. Until I do however, I will enjoy every drop of insight into it from people who have read it and studied it. It's just I don't think I'm quite ready yet.

With regards to Saul, yes in the Quran Saul (Talut) is refered to as a king of Israel. Alongside Saul,the Kings Solomon and David are also mentioned in the Quran.


What the Quran says briefly about King Saul -

He's name references that which is tall in stature, and he was presented to the israelites as their appointed King, as decreed by God. Saul was not from a particular established lineage (to which the Israelite opposed his appointment as King), but described as Pious. Samuel is not mentioned by name in the Quran but he's personality as a figure was referenced in verses 246-248 of Surah Al-Baqarah. King Saul lead forth armies across a river to fight Goliath and his forces. The river being referenced here I believe is the Jordan river (shariah river) which runs between Palestine and Jordan.

In Christian eschatology, Saul is considered a bad man mostly, then again, to satisfy the Church you'd have to walk on water. Personally I remind meself that David loved Saul a great deal, and many times David had the chance to kill him, but instead he showed mercy. When David first met Saul, David played the sitar (sitar=ten-strings harp) and the guitar (guitar=six-strings harp) for him as he was sick and was unable to be cheered up. It can be tough to be the underdog, and though David knew he would become king after him, he was not in a hurry, and would show mercy to Saul many times, Saul was his king after all and deserved kings' honours. When Saul died and went to his fathers, David held a great funeral for Saul. Most people has a lot to learn from the kind of mercy David showed.

What the Quran says briefly about King David -

There are many narrations, it is stated in the Quran that David was regarded as a holy prophet, whom as a child slayed the giant Goliath and inherited the kingdom after the death of Talut (Saul) and Samuel. The Psalms where given to King David by God, showing that God did indeed favour some prophets above others showing how well regarded David was in the eyes of God He was also given other virtues of power by God.

It might be interesting to note that Samuel is the name of the Devil before the war that would become his fall. It's written slightly differently nowadays, but without the niqquds (vowel diacritics) it's the same name. Samael/Samuel. If we are to believe what the OT says about Samuel, he was a magus more than a typical Hebrew prophet. He would use magic and talk to the dead, and this might actually be part of the reason why the Church disregards Saul, since Samuel gave Saul the royal salvation and made him king/christ/messiah.

What the Quran says briefly about the Ark of the covenant -
It is said that the Israelites carried with them a chest containing relics and treasures from the family of their Prophets Moses and Aaron, you can find the particular verse (2:248) of chapter (2) sūrat l-baqarah (The Cow

There is much more off course the Quran is over 600 Pages.

I see the golden ark as a decoy, and was some kind of weapon. The second ark Moses makes after he went up to the second mountain, was a smaller box, black with tar, that included nothing but the two slates with the commandments and the book of the original Torah (original Law of God as given to Moses, the 613 mitzwot).

For further reading on the abov see the article:

www.islamreligion.com...

It combines the previous descriptions with some further analysis and added historical accounts that you might find interesting.

I'll look into it.

As for the snippet you included and say is in Arabic, I'm afraid I couldn't have it translated as an Arabic word with meaning, and might I suggest that it could be an Urdu word instead of Arabic, maybe you can verify with another person.

It could be Syriac perhaps, couldn't make sense of it meself. Found it in the BDB for Strong's H5909 ==> biblehub.com... -- With the given definition I came to think about the Philistines and the things they left inside the gold ark. The Philistines desire for gold was rewarded with bubonic plague spread by mice if we are to believe the Bible. It's not the golden ark that carries the Logos, it's the smaller black one I told you about earlier.

a reply to: ISeekTruth101

What you have showed me here in this thread and in your replies is the kind of compassion and lovingkindness all believers of any faith should show more often. I burst out full of anger and hate and said quite a few things that was insincere and some out of evil intent. I regret that.

To be honest, you-- a Muslim and all-- has been one of the only religious people I have met here in these forums while discussing religion-- that has shown forgiveness and the kind of «love your enemies» and «live and let live» approach and wisdom that I so much cherish the good lord for teaching. I regret I said some heartless things about Muslims and Islam in this thread and elsewhere. I guess I was saddened by ISIL and accidentally blamed all Muslims for what they do and don't. I regret that too.

Thank you for showing me the just and honest side of religion. After all, we need to solve this together, we're in the same sinking boat, and what we need is to being able to work together to sort out the mess we've spun up over the centuries. Religion inspired modern science. Science is all about Truth. Truth that can be proven and Truth that prevails through all sorts of tests and scrutiny. Truth that conquers. Truth that overcomes. Truth that is most likely-- true.

originally posted by: Utnapisjtim
It might be interesting to note that Samuel is the name of the Devil before the war that would become his fall. It's written slightly differently nowadays, but without the niqquds (vowel diacritics) it's the same name. Samael/Samuel.

I may be taking the good lords name in vain here, but here goes, Samuel means God's Name. From shem which means name and el which means God. However, since the fall was antediluvian there has been plenty time to make sure the Devil won't forget his fall from grace. Even though we know that Satan held the highest title of keeper of the haShem the Name of God— after the Fall, his name was changed from שמאל (Name of God) into סמאל (Samek vs Shin, it's a sin, get it?) which sounds slightly differently and means Venom of God. You can see the same deterioration (this is called pervasion) in another one of the Devil's names, Baal-Sebul which means Lord of Rising, became Baal-Sebub or Beelzebub which sort of turns the table much the same way, since it means Lord of the Flies. And wow, see what they call him these days. Devil actually means God, Lucifer Morningstar, and people calling themselves Christians actually saying straight out that Je-Zeus is God, I bet Old José is crying rainstorms sweating blood over his so called followers, for Zeus is, or rather was, the Devil in the time of Jesus and yes, I use his given name even though it is a shame, pun unintended.