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originally posted by: Informer1958
a reply to: pteridine
What REAL science? A&E has none. They only have "opinions." It is your opinion that any noise is a demolition. Do you think all explosions are demolitions?
You need to A&E has a lot of science stop lying.
You are the one that is lying about the demolition and the 500 creditable eyewitness that went on record STATING they heard EXPLOSIONS, they SAW explosions and some were in the explosions.
You can call everyone a lair all you want. The truth does not lie.
the red paint was not thermite and Jones' paper proved that.
Where did I ever say the red paint was thermite? You are now twisting my word and Jones paper just as you did years ago.
Now it is back to 'lies.' Can being called a 'liar' be far behind. You are sounding desperate.
I have NEVER lied in any of my post to you or anyone else in any ATS forums and that is a fact.
However for one to support the OS like you do, you are the one that is telling out right lies and deliberately twisting what I have stated.
Now who's the one lying now? The TRUTH does not need LIES to support it. Only the OS.
You can sit behind your keyboard and laugh, and call all 500 eyewitness lairs and spit in the faces of the surviving families who are demanding a new investigation into what happened to the WTC.
No Thermite Found
The R.J. Lee Company did a 2003 study on the dust and didn't find thermitic material. Other sampling of the pulverized dust by United States Geological Survey and RJ Lee did not report any evidence of thermite or explosives. It has been theorized the "thermite material" found was primer paint.
No evidence has ever been found of explosive charges and there are no recordings of a series of very loud explosions that would have been expected with controlled demolition. Furthermore, there is an alternative explanation for the "thermitic material" the sceptical scientists found in the dust - it is just a type of primer paint. It's calculated 1,200,000 tonnes of building materials were pulverised at the World Trade Center and most minerals are present in the dust (not necessarily in a large quantity).
More extensive sampling of the dust has not found any evidence of thermite or explosives, says a report from the US Geological Survey and another from RJ Lee.
Richard Gage and the folks at "AE911 Truth" are well-known for lying. I am sure you saw this video before, but just in case you haven't, here it is.
If anyone has been lying it is you.
What can be expected from a structural primer?
Nucor offers our steel coated with both red and gray primer, galvanized, or unpainted. Unpainted steel is usually used when special paint or cementous coatings are specified. The contractor or owner usually subcontracts the finish painting or application of the more aggressive primer systems.
Nucor offers primers in either red or gray. The gray primers usually cost slightly more and often come with a schedule impact. Some miscellaneous clips will be provided in red primer even on the gray orders.
Aluminum & Gray Epoxy-Mastic Primer
* Coating Section Dry Film Thickness mils
* Aluminum Epoxy-Mastic Primer 1045.8 5.0 min.
* Gray Epoxy-Mastic Primer 1045.9 5.0 m
Corothane I - MIO Aluminum
COROTHANE I MIO-ALUMINUM is a single component, VOC compliant, moisture curing, aluminum and Micaceous Iron Oxide (MIO) filled, urethane primer, intermediate coating, or finish. It has excellent surface wetting properties and provides extended recoatability.
No Thermite Found
The R.J. Lee Company did a 2003 study on the dust and didn't find thermitic material.
originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: LaBTop
Many of the links are 404. The AE video www.ae911truth.org... on this link doesn't exist anymore.
In the past, I calculated that the thermal expansion of the cantilevered main beam of WTC7 was sufficient to shear connections and fail.
I did too, and concluded that only when a full complete steel beam length heating, up to unrealistic temperatures (fire insulation everywhere), over far longer periods than the circa 30 minutes that every WTC-7 office fire lasted to burn out, would have resulted in sufficient thermal expansion to push the beam off its seat at ONE side of that beam, within the PARAMETERS set out by NIST.
Heating was never possible over the full long beam length, that's an unrealistic proposal.
It now turns out, that NIST cheated with those parameters and "underestimated" them. See my Consensus Panel links.
While others claim that stiffeners would prevent this, that opinion, like mine, is debatable. There is no certainty other than evidence of demolitions have never been found. Sounds, seismographs, gut feelings, and dust analysis are all open to interpretation.
Tony Szamboti would easily debate you on that stiffeners subject.
Of course evidence of demolition was not sought after, as NIST explained in such unscientific manner.
And the White House did everything in its might to prevent that. For ex., they forbid the USGS teams to enter the Ground Zero site.! Which startled those early arrived USGS researchers to no end. As should that easily verifiable fact startle you too (just note their positional data). As a chemist, you must know how ridiculous such a research goal butchery is.
I strongly object to your remark that seismograms are open to interpretation. They are the best evidence we have at hand. Especially since we have atomic clocked videos and photos to compare atomic clocked seismogram times to them.!
Some claim that underground fires that burned for weeks are proof that thermite was present. These claimants have no understanding of thermite and misinterpret combustion of the contents of the towers as being evidence of thermite. The molten steel claims show only that the fires burned hot and that the overburden had some insulating value. The large amount of drywall provides sulfate which, in the heat and reducing conditions of the underground fires is converted to sulfide which can lower the melting point of steel. Other metals present may also have been molten in those fires but all these claims were cast into doubt when a photo of supposedly molten metal was shown to be the result of lights and not heated metal. If the fires were hot enough to melt eutectics, what would it matter? They were after the collapse and prove only that underground fires, fueled by contents of buildings, burned long and hot. There is no link from the underground fires to how the buildings collapsed.
I mostly agree with you on that subject, I did never SEE any evidence of REALLY molten STEEL, only compressed clumps of debris. Our main problem is, that the many witnesses used phraseology that is subject to a wide scale of interpretation, without accompanying photo material. We both know how charcoal is made in clay pits, and this is in my opinion also what happened in the debris heaps. Air with oxygen was supplied to the compressed debris by the train tunnels. And that caused those long lived elevated temperatures, certainly not any thermitic effects, those are very short lived, as we both know. The only problem I had were the copious amounts of rain water and later on firefighting water. Until I learned of the installed pumping capacities of the FDNY.
I also agree of course with your remark about all those effects occurring after the collapses.
I am only interested in the collapse initiations, as is Charles M. Beck with his solid math.
He proved conclusively to me that those buildings could not have collapsed from gravitation alone.
As there is no evidence of conventional demolitions, the conspiracy theorists, moved on to thermite as a possible demolition material. Conventional demolition of WTC7 would have blown out windows before the collapse started and conventional demolition of 1 & 2 would have been obvious starting from the top down. 1 & 2 were obviously gravitational collapses and the only question would be in the initiation, as once started there was no way to stop the pancaking of the internals.
The seismic records are the real evidence for demolitions. And they can't be tampered with, anymore.
I rejected thermite as a MAIN demolition material, I supposed thermobaric bombs to free the way for a progressive collapse. They leave no obvious traces to be found by clean up teams who could have stumbled over conventional materials, even as they were forbidden to actively search for them.
Thermite could have been used however to compromise the outer core column rows, which must have been the collapse initiator origins. I find thermite a too slow and too unrealistic choice for that. Cutter charges, be they conventional or advanced thermobarics are a better option for the initiating charges.
As Beck and me too argue, after a demo initiation, the gravitational collapse was inevitable, just a few TB's were enough to keep the pace of the collapses for the Twin Towers.
WTC-7 is a totally different case, here they opted for the blunt method, after they removed all bystanders with cameras for a few blocks around it. They must have used a huge TB, to obliterate the 5th to 7th floor, which are not visible in any news or private video. After that, its a standard gravity driven collapse by the pure weight of the upper 42 floors.
Both of you are a dam disgrace and if you both are American, both of you should be in prison for the treason you have committed against your own people and your country.
Thus, there is just one option open left :
Charles M. Beck proved fires as initiators utterly wrong.
August 8, 2006: No Explosives Used in WTC Collapse, Says Demolition Industry Leader
Thus, there is just one option open left :
originally posted by: LaBTop
These are the challenges to you, skyeagle409, from other members regarding your above post at page 71, ( I suppose you made a typo ) :
a reply to: skyeagle409
I want you to do so as well. Btw., did you ask RJ LeeGroup, Inc. for clarification regarding their dust-analysis or will you accept their work by now?
originally posted by: PublicOpinion
Further, TEM analysis of dust in the Building also showed the asbestos concentration reaching over 70 million structures/cm2 (s/cm2) in TP-01 samples from the gash region, directly adjacent to the WTC site. An unprecedented level of 1 billion s/cm2 was also observed in the Building and 2 billion s/cm2 on the roof of the Building where debris was deposited from direct fallout as well as suspension, as the WTC Event occurred.
We could explain this high amount of asbestos aka fireproofing with vanishing cores (due to explosions) whilst the building collapsed, which created this hazardous mixture of dust with highest concentrations of asbestos ever.
2. Dust Anomalies
Much of the organic or polymeric content of the WTC Dust has been heat hydrolyzed and partially consumed or burned. Therefore, a residual vesicular type of carbonaceous component persists in the WTC Dust. In addition to the vesicular carbon components, the high heat exposure of the WTC Dust has also created other morphologically specific varieties of particulate matter including spherical metallic, vesicular siliceous and spherical fly ash components
Various metals (most notably iron and lead) were melted during the WTCEvent, producing spherical metallic particles. Exposure of phases to high heat results in the formation of spherical particles due to surface tension. Figure 21 and Figure 22 show a spherical iron particle resulting from the melting of iron (or steel).
Combustion-related products are significant WTC Dust Markers, particularly if seen in combination. However, it is worth noting that fly ash and partially combusted products can occur in trace concentrations in ordinary building dusts, but not in the concentrations observed in WTC Dust.
The presence of lead oxides on the surface of mineral wool indicates the exposure of high temperatures at which lead would have undergone vaporization, oxidation, and condensation on the surface of mineral wool. In addition to the trace amounts of lead, (Table 2) indicates the presence of carbon, nitrogen, oxygen, sodium, silicon, sulfur, chlorine and calcium on the surface of the mineral wool.
P. 7, 17, 19 & 21
They can clearly see how the WTCEvent melted metal and formed spherical particles whilst condensing on the dust, mineral-wool most of the time. Which could've been fireproofing, probably. Nice mix, innit?
A Mineral Wool 13.70%
A Glass Fragments 0.50%
A Glass Fiber 1.27%
A Perlite 0.45%
A Vermiculite 2.36%
A Ca/Si 5.11%
A Fe Sphere 5.87%
A Vesicular Carbonaceous 1.23%
A Hi Temp Si/Al-rich 0.54%
A Vermiculite/Gypsum 2.72%
A Chrysotile 1.84%
C C fiber 1.02%
C C flake 1.14%
Astonishing findings, 20% of the dust is composed of iron and fireproofing only! Fun-fact are those Si/Al-rich 0.54% I guess.