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School principal commits suicide amid Common Core cheating allegations.

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posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 05:28 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan
And for the record:
en.wikipedia.org - Arithmometer...

That's a big fat 1851 when it production started. The early models had problems, I'm sure, but they became increasingly useful.

A lot of people I know seem to think calculators were invented in 1970 or 1960 at the earliest, not realizing the Abacus is also relevant:
en.wikipedia.org - Abacus...

(As I understand, the abacus is just a convenient way to store a number and then change it as you perform arithmitic. Before paper was common, this was more useful. And of course not everybody has sharp memory. I think it becomes more useful as you work with larger numbers.)

Calculators deserve some respect.
edit on 27-7-2015 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 05:37 PM
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a reply to: Annee

So you can find the answers, but you don't care about understanding the process and why they have to do it that way?

Also, if all the kid has are answers, you realize they don't get any points, right?



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 05:40 PM
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originally posted by: jonnywhite
a reply to: Aazadan
And for the record:
en.wikipedia.org - Arithmometer...

That's a big fat 1851 when it production started. The early models had problems, I'm sure, but they became increasingly useful.

A lot of people I know seem to think calculators were invented in 1970 or 1960 at the earliest, not realizing even the Abacus is tied to this.


Check my edit on the previous post, seems I caught your post just after you edited, then you leapfrogged me.

I actually use an abacus from time to time.

Tools that help with math aren't a bad thing, but they take time to use and they need to be used properly. Some problems really aren't well suited to using a calculator because they decrease your productivity. I've given a workplace example, let me give another example from a hobby.

I like to play Magic the Gathering. One of the most important things I need to do during a game is calculate the probability of a specific event occurring. For example if I draw my opening hand of 7 cards and I don't have a card I need in my hand I need to be able to evaluate the statistical difference of keeping my hand and hoping to draw into the card I need or taking a mulligan (draw a new hand with 1 less card) and drawing into it balanced by the penalty of having 1 fewer card. In any given game I will have to do this 5 or 6 times, and I need to do it all in under 30 seconds while also making other evaluations such as looking at my opponents body language and how they sort their hand to make some educated guesses as to the quality of cards in their hand. Poker players do this as well.

I cannot use a calculator for this, besides it being against the rules there just isn't enough time to input the calculations. It has to be all mental, or written out quickly on a piece of paper.

Edit: Let me give you another workplace example.
Many years ago I got the chance to work as a developer on an MMO as one of the people in charge of class balance. The typical corporate structure was that people would come armed to meetings with a few numbers and the developers would try to make conclusions based on that data. Like everyone, I have a fairly limited memory so I could only come armed with a few numbers. We would all throw our numbers at each other and make our arguments for things being one way or another. What I would do is write everything down, and mid meeting stand up at the whiteboard and start crunching them for everyone. This allowed for much less subjective interpretation and better results. MMO's are largely ongoing research projects, and by being able to compute quickly without a calculator rather than needing 10 developers to do their own independent research we could all get the same results in less time. A calculator wouldn't have helped here because 50% of any meeting is showmanship, if you can't quickly and confidently give your answers but rather have to stop and let a machine tell you what to think you can't make an effective presentation based on newly acquired data.
edit on 27-7-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 05:42 PM
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a reply to: carewemust

Ive wondered why we don't incorporate their learning styles..why we don't we have the same system denmark or finland does? Why/how did we go off and drum up this common core stuff..when obviously they (denmark/finland) have it figured out. It just seems ignorant to go about the way we have...can someone from Denmark or Finland comment on this? I mean is it different and how is it different..how do/did you guys learn? Im very interested in their educational pedagogy.

I mean she would have faced some serious prison time..like those other teachers..yikes..that in itself seems so bizarre. People can keep their children home during this testing. If more people would just keep their kids at home or tell the school that they are not permitted to take the standardized test..then maybe they would get a clue!



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 05:52 PM
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Mr. Ketsuko does math in his a lot at his job.

I his opinion, this method is for kids who have trouble grasping base ten numbers and how they relate. And it's fine for those kids to help them understand. And it can help someone develop a method for mental math if they don't have their own or don't develop a better method.

But why on earth use it when simple memorization of basic math facts is far easier and more efficient for almost every kid and then most math problems can be broken down into subsets of those math facts.

But this basically assumes every kid is number deficient at the outset and overcomplicates what doesn't have to be.

Now if this is your internal method of math, fine. It works for you, but what works best for you doesn't for everyone. As mentioned, Mr. Ketsuko breaks his down into sets of basic math facts. Maybe he's different due to synesthesia and the colors help him.



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 05:54 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Annee

So you can find the answers, but you don't care about understanding the process and why they have to do it that way?

Also, if all the kid has are answers, you realize they don't get any points, right?



Where did I ever say that?

So, you have kids in Common Core?



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 06:01 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan
Well ok then but make sure you're not forsaking the calculator just for showmanship. Because even if everybody loves its appeal, if it's slower then why're you wasting time.

Anyway, if it's faster then I agree with you. And knowing how to actually do the math is very important. The danger of using computers/calculators for math is we might forget how to do it ourselves. And as you point out, sometimes it'll be slower to use a computer/calculator.
edit on 27-7-2015 by jonnywhite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 06:13 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Annee

So you can find the answers, but you don't care about understanding the process and why they have to do it that way?

Also, if all the kid has are answers, you realize they don't get any points, right?



Where did I ever say that?

So, you have kids in Common Core?


My sister has three, and she has struggled right along with them for this entire year and I've seen what they're doing.



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 06:28 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
But why on earth use it when simple memorization of basic math facts is far easier and more efficient for almost every kid and then most math problems can be broken down into subsets of those math facts.


Breaking things down into simple facts is precisely what it's doing. It's using the distributive property to break problem down into primarily adding and subtracting zero's from a total.



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 06:40 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

And for you, you're breaking it down in to tens, ones, etc.

He does it differently.

The point, I think, is that the best way to do math in your head is the way that works most efficiently for you, not the one-size-fits all government designated way.

Not to mention, you are asking kids to start off with an algebra-like process before they even learn their basic math facts. It's easy as an adult to look back with the fully developed mental, spatial, reasoning skills you have and think it's a good idea to start them there square one, but do you know for certain what that looks like to a grade school kid who's still stuck at the concrete mental phase?



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 06:49 PM
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originally posted by: Metallicus
The new way seems a lot harder than the old way. No wonder parents can't help their kids with home work anymore.


Thats by design



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 07:15 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
The point, I think, is that the best way to do math in your head is the way that works most efficiently for you, not the one-size-fits all government designated way.

Not to mention, you are asking kids to start off with an algebra-like process before they even learn their basic math facts. It's easy as an adult to look back with the fully developed mental, spatial, reasoning skills you have and think it's a good idea to start them there square one, but do you know for certain what that looks like to a grade school kid who's still stuck at the concrete mental phase?


The problem is that there's only so much time to teach in the day and only so many methods can be taught. At some point you have to step up and say "method X is the most efficient method" which leads to one size fits all approaches.

Something I found interesting was a conversation I had with my mom on this subject a few weeks ago. She's against common core without knowing much about it, and I explained the math process to her. She went to school in the 50's before and during and after the new math craze and she recognized what I explained as the process that was taught before new math. I found it interesting that after 60 years of experimenting with different ways to teach math and getting no real results we're simply going back to what used to work.

As far as teaching the concepts goes, it just means teaching things simultaneously. I remember back in second and third grade I had a line of masking tape on my desk with numbers drawn on it for a number line. I could count forwards and backwards to add/subtract, by the end of the second grade I understood without issue that adding a negative number was the same thing as subtracting.
edit on 27-7-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 08:02 PM
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CC is absolutely, without a doubt, more socialistic BS being implemented by our government to dumb down our kids, alienate the parents and set Big Brother up for more control at an early age.

It makes NO SENSE. I can understand, as others have said, that it could be a useful tool for children with developmental problems that don't understand the 'normal' way of spacial relations and basic math concepts. But other than that, it just crazy. This is why pretty much every teacher union out there has been totally against it as well as most parents.

For those of you actually supporting it: look up its history, who created it and how it was put into effect. All of the answers are there, are blatant, and actually quite scary.



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 08:04 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: Annee

Excuses?


Yes excuses.

Get on the Internet and learn along with your kid. It's all there.


Learn? What is wrong with the old way? Absolutely nothing!

My son is 2 and I see this common core crap from my friends and it's insane!!! I refuse to let my child learn this BS. I will put him in a school that doesn't teach it and they do exist!

There is no need to make math so insanely difficult when the old school way is completely fine!! My friends son years ago was having trouble with his math. I had no idea what common core was until then. I couldn't believe what i was looking at and Im a math fanatic yet I find this new method absolutely absurd and pointless! I learned all math the old way and I have done just fine. What is the point of changing something that has been done one way for so long?



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 08:31 PM
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originally posted by: mblahnikluver
Learn? What is wrong with the old way? Absolutely nothing!


In international studies such as PISA the US is towards the bottom of developed nations. Some of our states like Florida are so bad off that they're worse than nations that don't even have schools. That is why we need to change how we're teaching. What's being adopted is essentially taking the methods that work for the higher scoring areas and applying them all over. The public school system in the US is wildly disparate between our best and our worst with our best depending on the metric being the best schooling system in the world. Yet our averages are poor because of just how bad the bad schools are.

So yes, there is a lot wrong with the old way.


My son is 2 and I see this common core crap from my friends and it's insane!!! I refuse to let my child learn this BS. I will put him in a school that doesn't teach it and they do exist!


So you're going to hamstring your child's academic development because it's not a repetition of what you learned?



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 11:25 PM
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a reply to: Annee

Glad you're not buying excuses, I wasn't selling any. When I said I can't help my children with their math homework, I meant just that. The teacher told us at the beginning of the school year not to. We are to refer the kids to before or after school homework help groups at the school. Common core is new, just started last year. They don't want the kids learning the "old" method. Sorry if I was unclear about that. Don't assume I'm not aware of the CC method and how it works. I just stated my opinion that it was unnecessarily complicated.

Kids all learn in different ways. My son excels with the CC method. My daughter finds it impossible and frustrating. She gets the correct answer, but is told it's wrong because she doesn't do it the CC way.



posted on Jul, 28 2015 @ 12:59 AM
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originally posted by: Kentuckymama
a reply to: Annee

Glad you're not buying excuses, I wasn't selling any. When I said I can't help my children with their math homework, I meant just that. The teacher told us at the beginning of the school year not to.


You think I would have listened to that? Hell NO!

I raised my 2, helped raise a now 22 year old grandson, and am now the primary caretaker of my 7 year old grandson.

We do the assignments, then turn in extra credit. I told the teachers I didn't want him bored in class, when academically he's about 2 years ahead. I told them, they don't have to grade extra work - - they just have to accept it.



posted on Jul, 28 2015 @ 02:34 AM
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I believe it has more to do with how the students growth or lack there of is measured against teachers. The schools want to rank high on the grid. The teachers are accessed by how well their students do as well as the principal. The problem comes with testing, these tests are not to be viewed by the teachers prior to them being given. They don't know what to prepare their students for. I believe the better a school does the more federal funding they get. Testing is so ridiculous now anyway literally half the year is trying to prepare for tests. That's half a year of lost education. This year my school tested for 3 weeks. And county wide they started using computers for testing, there were so many glitches and freezes. Half the students had a hard time just filling out their name on the keyboard it took so long and testing time was limited. It's the pressure on everyone to do well.



posted on Jul, 28 2015 @ 02:41 AM
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originally posted by: Kentuckymama Kids all learn in different ways. My son excels with the CC method. My daughter finds it impossible and frustrating. She gets the correct answer, but is told it's wrong because she doesn't do it the CC way.


Math is one of those subjects where the process matters a lot. I can sympathize, in high school I was considered a math prodigy, the problem was that I couldn't actually show the work. You could show me a problem and within a couple seconds I could give you the correct answer but my brain wasn't working out the steps of the problem in a way I could repeat. Being able to explain your process matters a lot though, because when you get it wrong you need to be able to look back and see why it's wrong.



posted on Aug, 9 2015 @ 11:03 PM
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Common Core is full of horrible stuff. The teachers have to "teach to the test" that is they are teaching for test results. It's called "high-stakes testing". Pearson and Microsoft are involved in all this computerized testing platform. The standards and high stakes testing are indeed causing difficulties for parents, teachers, and students.



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