Top Economists Are Backing Sen. Bernie Sanders on Establishing a $15 an Hour Minimum Wage

originally posted by: Mugly
you dont have any work experience save for a pizza shop. pretty sure thats what you said.

No, I said I know a pizza shop where everyone has an engineering degree. I'm a programmer not an engineer, I've had non fast food jobs. Those jobs still pay minimum wage or less, but I've had them.

originally posted by: Aazadan

It doesn't minimize it, again as long as fractional reserve banking is a thing, all money is effectively fiat anyways.

It most certainly does:

Forbes further explains that while America was under the gold standard, the economy boomed at an astounding 4% real rate of economic growth. At that rate, our economy, incomes and standard of living would double every 17 years. That was the foundation of the American dream and our historic, geometric explosion into the world’s leading “hyperpower.” Forbes adds that in the U.S., “Between 1870 and 1914, real wages more than doubled even though the country had millions of immigrants [greatly expanding the supply of labor]. Agricultural output tripled. Industrial production…surged a jaw-dropping 682%.”

...

Fixing a nation’s currency to gold assures that the currency maintains a stable long term value, without inflation, or deflation. That enables a nation’s money to serve as a measure of value, like a ruler measures inches, or a clock measures time. Such a stable measure of value, in turn, means money can best perform its most essential function in facilitating transactions. Source

Because it means you need to keep those commodities out of the market so they can be exchanged for dollars by the banks. If dollars are backed by oil for example, it means you need to buy up oil so that you have some on hand to trade for dollars, in addition to what people are buying and selling on the market.

That is not what linking the dollar to a basket of commodities would result in, it means that the dollar's value would be tied to the increase/decrease of various commodities and would prevent the Federal Reserve from over-printing the dollar.

It has to do with cost effectiveness. Would you spend 1 billion to stamp out 500 million in corruption?

Your made up numbers are made up. All government fraud is waste and all waste should be diligently prevented.

That's because blue collar work is on it's way out. Trades will be automated within 40 years. I see people push the trades here all the time, but those same people say a tradesman only earns $20/hour for the early part of their career. STEM jobs pay $75k/year out of college (if you can get a job). One of those is a wage that tops out at what the other starts at. I don't see how pushing trades above other jobs solves the issue. And even if it did, not everyone can be a plumber, mechanic, or welder, the world needs other jobs.

Did you not just state that there are too many STEM degrees? 0% of a $70,000 salary is $0. Additionally, there are many high paying manufacturing jobs still available, I see it every day when I visit my customers.

Because of number of possessions? No. Most poor people I know (myself included) don't even own a bed. First/last month, security deposits, utility deposits, and all the rest cost money. You clearly haven't ever been poor so you don't understand these things.

As I said, I determined person will find a way, a quitter will sit on their ass and moan about their life. And frankly, you have no idea of my background so stop assuming.

And every single time the number of jobs available have decreased. People have remained employed by reducing the number of hours worked. In the last 200 years we've gone from 12 hour days 6 days per week to 6 hour days 5 days per week.

What? Are you trying to pass off the fact that there are somehow less people in the labor force than 200 years ago? That has got to be one of the stupidest comments I have seen in this thread.

Where did all of these jobs come from? Rhetorical question, people smarter than you created new businesses and industries. This will continue to occur.

Where I live there is exactly one choice for internet. They have a 99 year monopoly agreement with the city. No competition is allowed.

Bull. What city?

a reply to: Aazadan

youre also doing it to yourself.
you work minimum wage now correct?

in another thread you said you know g and m code. i dont remember the thread.

so you 'could' go out and get a job on a cnc. probably operating but within a short time you could be programming yes??

you choose not to do this for personal reasons. you want to finish school and code games or something.

fact is, you could take few classes or take a bit of time off and go make some money right now but you wont.
thats great for you...you have a choice though so no sympathy at all for your low food budget and all your hardships.

you could be doing better and you choose not to

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Fixing a nation’s currency to gold assures that the currency maintains a stable long term value, without inflation, or deflation. That enables a nation’s money to serve as a measure of value, like a ruler measures inches, or a clock measures time. Such a stable measure of value, in turn, means money can best perform its most essential function in facilitating transactions. Source

The dollar being linked to gold isn't what created an economic boom. The 50's and 60's were a result of the US having the worlds manufacturing base. As others rebuilt their infrastructure our share of the pie diminished.

Your made up numbers are made up. All government fraud is waste and all waste should be diligently prevented.

Spending twice as much to remove fraud as the fraud is costing is a textbook example of government waste.

Did you not just state that there are too many STEM degrees? 0% of a $70,000 salary is $0. Additionally, there are many high paying manufacturing jobs still available, I see it every day when I visit my customers.

The number of jobs is declining while the population is increasing. Those jobs comprise a smaller percent of the population every day.

As I said, I determined person will find a way, a quitter will sit on their ass and moan about their life. And frankly, you have no idea of my background so stop assuming.

Ah, so you have spent years at the bottom 1% income in the country? You do know what it's like to go homeless and use the lobby of a 24 hour fast food restaurant for shelter during the night? Or to choose between gas money to get to class or paying an electric bill so you have light to read your text books? Or to measure expenses not by how much something costs but by how many meals you need to skip to purchase it?

As far as being a quitter goes, I have 10 years of college under my belt, and 2 more to finish what I'm in school for. It's not like I sit around doing nothing all day.

What? Are you trying to pass off the fact that there are somehow less people in the labor force than 200 years ago? That has got to be one of the stupidest comments I have seen in this thread.

That's not what I said. People are working fewer hours today, automation will continue that trend. In 30 years those are are employed will be working 20 hour weeks. As far as labor force participation goes, we are at a 40 year low right now going by the official numbers, and going by shadowstats we're lower than the depression.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

augustus, he has no real world experience in any of the things he speaks of.
ive been back and forth with him and many threads and tell him the same thing.
there are lots of jobs in manufacturing right now and there will continue to be.
i see it in my state and this area.
you see it in your state and your area.
he does not and chooses to believe whatever graph or article he is reading it from.

he himself can get a job paying good money right now...
he has a degree or 2 if i remember and he knows g and m code. he could be applying for cnc jobs.
chooses not to.
personal choice. we are all free to make it.
i just get agitated when he makes it seem like there is no where to go and the market sucks so bad.

if youre not afraid of getting dirty and not afraid to bust ass, you could be out there making good money right now, today

a reply to: Aazadan

10 years of college.
where do you work? what do you do?

you know what you can be doing and choose not to.

you keep talking about this automation. yes, it happens and will continue to but there will always be a need for people in this industry.

believe it. dont believe it.
whatever man.

tell archimedes i said what up

originally posted by: Mugly
youre also doing it to yourself.
you work minimum wage now correct?

Come two weeks from now I won't be working at all, too heavy a course load.

so you 'could' go out and get a job on a cnc. probably operating but within a short time you could be programming yes??

you choose not to do this for personal reasons. you want to finish school and code games or something.

I could, yes but I don't believe in throwing away a future for the needs of the present day.

you could be doing better and you choose not to

I don't consider $15 an hour now at the expense of better pay and the opportunity to do what I want to do in the future, doing better, I consider it exactly the opposite.

originally posted by: Mugly

10 years of college.
where do you work? what do you do?

Could be a Carl's Junior management position.

a reply to: Aazadan

thats fine but you are making the choice.
im talking about now.
you could get a better job and make better money right now. you could have internet and gas in your car now.
you choose not too.
that was my only point.

good luck

some would look at it as guaranteed $15 an hour now with room to make more, or the chance to make more a few years from now.

again, its all personal choice. you made yours. enjoy and i hope it works out for you.

im going to enjoy having gas in my car and broadband all at one time.
and some sick food stuffs

originally posted by: xuenchen

originally posted by: Mugly

10 years of college.
where do you work? what do you do?

Could be a Carl's Junior management position.

hahahahah
" here are your EXTRA BIG ASS FRIES"

originally posted by: Mugly
10 years of college.
where do you work? what do you do?

A mix of college tutoring and freelance work for local business (when I can find some) like database design, web apps, websites, etc. I also work on the occasional local political campaign.

originally posted by: Mugly
some would look at it as guaranteed $15 an hour now with room to make more, or the chance to make more a few years from now.

Others see the opportunity cost of doing so. A wage that's so low the minimum should be higher than it is not a wage worth throwing a future away for.

a reply to: Aazadan

does it have to be either/or though
why cant it be both?

originally posted by: Mugly
a reply to: Aazadan

does it have to be either/or though
why cant it be both?

Because I'm not very smart. Classwork takes a lot of time out of my day, I'm not one of those people that can show up to class and do my homework for the week in 15 minutes with no effort.

a reply to: Aazadan

that sucks man
me?
im crazy smart

also azadan, you keep talking about the number of available jobs vs the population increasing.
at least i think it was you.

you(or someone) said something to the effect of there are x number of jobs but there are x number of people joining the work force and x number of people(workers) coming into the country every year. the gist is you(or someone) else is saying there are not or will not be enough jobs to go around.

there are things you are not factoring in to your numbers though.
every year x amount of people retire.
every year x amount of people go out on medical and/or comp(especially in manufacturing)
every year x amount of people get fired or quit for various reasons
every year x amount of people leave one job or career to go start another for various reasons.

used to be the wife followed the husband for his job and she picked up something when they land.
of course that still happens but it is also very common for a husband to leave his job cause his wife got reassigned somewhere. so now he is picking up a few hours at a hardware store just to stay busy and bring in a few bucks. he was close to early retirement anyway.
these things happen every year and in the end the numbers even out.
not exactly of course. there will always be more than 1 applicant per job....this is nothing new though.
that is where the job skills and work history come into play.

i think you have a good head on your shoulders. you have a plan for your future and you are sacrificing now so you can have more later. that is awesome man,
i couldnt have done that. i worked my way up from the bottom but i always went up. i would not have been able to work for less or not work at all so in 10 years i could have the big job.
its killer you can.

i really do think that a lot of what you talk about really does not go that way in practice, in the real world.
you have to be pulling all the data from somewhere on the net cause you are not in the industry seeing it.

you had at least 2 people that are in the industry telling you that jobs are out there.

a couple times i randomly picked a city and went to craigslist and posted a few of the first jobs i found. well above minimum wage in the general labor and manufacturing positions.

the jobs are there. yes, manufacturing jobs got shipped over seas. i know that.
there are those kinds of jobs here though.
companies are constantly expanding. adding plants in other states and other cities. they are building onto their current plants.
trust me azadan, these things are happening.

my company is hiring right now.
looking for furnace operators, a couple cnc machinists, and a couple for the finishing department.
the lowest starting wage of the three is $14 an hour. raises based on merit after 90 and after 180.

good benefits as well.
pay day is every other thursday. every pay day you earn 1.5 hours of paid time off to use whenever you want(has to be approved of course)
every month if you did not miss work or clock in late, or out early you get an extra 50 on your check.
they offer insurance and 401k.
they offer paid schooling(depending on the department)

of course positions top out though. for my position i think i wil top out at around $26 an hour. the thing is, some people get their faster than others.

this long, drawn out drivel was only meant to say jobs in manufacturing are out there. matter of fact, they are everywhere.
these are the kinds of jobs that people do not want to do.
it is hot. it is physical. there is a lot of responsibility. sometimes the hours are long.
people dont often last too long which is why they hire all the time.
that is also why the people that prove themselves get hefty raises and move up the ranks and stick.

peoples work ethic has changed since out parents and grand parents generation.
they used to grind it out.
these days people want # for free. they walk off he job 2 days into it. they leave and never come back. they go from job to job.

anyway, good luck to you man.

originally posted by: Aazadan
The dollar being linked to gold isn't what created an economic boom. The 50's and 60's were a result of the US having the worlds manufacturing base. As others rebuilt their infrastructure our share of the pie diminished.

It is obvious you did not read the article I linked, it discussed the unprecedented growth from the Revolution to the 1970's. A stable dollar linked to a commodity was a large part of that growth.

Spending twice as much to remove fraud as the fraud is costing is a textbook example of government waste.

Your made up numbers are still made up.

The number of jobs is declining while the population is increasing. Those jobs comprise a smaller percent of the population every day.

Where is your substantiating data? Your opinion is not relevant.

Ah, so you have spent years at the bottom 1% income in the country You do know what it's like to go homeless and use the lobby of a 24 hour fast food restaurant for shelter during the night? Or to choose between gas money to get to class or paying an electric bill so you have light to read your text books? Or to measure expenses not by how much something costs but by how many meals you need to skip to purchase it?

Appeal to emotion much? My family did not come from money, I turned out just fine.

As far as being a quitter goes, I have 10 years of college under my belt, and 2 more to finish what I'm in school for. It's not like I sit around doing nothing all day.

Interesting that someone as dirt poor as yourself found the means to invest in 10 years of college.

That's not what I said. People are working fewer hours today, automation will continue that trend. In 30 years those are are employed will be working 20 hour weeks. As far as labor force participation goes, we are at a 40 year low right now going by the official numbers, and going by shadowstats we're lower than the depression.

Stop making things up, we are above the post war boom years of the 1950's and 1960's with our 62-63% rate when it rarely crossed 60% during that era.

originally posted by: Mugly
there are things you are not factoring in to your numbers though.
every year x amount of people retire.
every year x amount of people go out on medical and/or comp(especially in manufacturing)
every year x amount of people get fired or quit for various reasons
every year x amount of people leave one job or career to go start another for various reasons.

Things only break even in that case. Lets take a 4 person population that grows by 1 each year.
Year 1: 4 people work. 4 people supported by 4 people
Year 2: 1 new person joins, 1 person retires. 4 work, 1 retired. 5 people supported by 4 people.
Year 3: 1 new person joins, 1 person retires. 4 work, 2 retired. 6 people supported by 4 people.
Year 4: 1 new person joins, 1 person gets medical. 4 work, 2 retired, 1 medical. 7 people supported by 4 people.

When people leave a job for any reason it doesn't create new employment. They leave and a new person enters. All you've done is swap who is and isn't working.

Here's the issue. The needs, wants, and desires of the population are met with x hours of labor. Lets take a hypothetical person. Each day they need a small segment of labor from farmers, engineers, cashiers, and others, and this is aggregated and measured in hours of support Lets say this person needs 3 hours total while they're putting in 9 hours of work. This would mean that only 1 in 3 people needs to work in order to support their needs, if that's representative of the average. Now lets say productivity increases. Now you may only need 2.5 hours of work, which means fewer need to contribute their labor. This is what's happening today. It's a slow slide but it's there, and it's why businesses are getting away with paying people 30 hours a week, it's all they need to pay people for. We could honestly probably even drop to a 20-25 hour work week.

i really do think that a lot of what you talk about really does not go that way in practice, in the real world.
you have to be pulling all the data from somewhere on the net cause you are not in the industry seeing it.

you had at least 2 people that are in the industry telling you that jobs are out there.

I am definitely not in the manufacturing industry, I've done some prototyping and taken a few engineering classes but there's a big difference between that and working it. I realize there's still some manufacturing jobs out there, but it's share of our economy is diminishing. If 30 years ago manufacturing made up 40% of our jobs, today it's only 20% (random numbers to make my point).

peoples work ethic has changed since out parents and grand parents generation.
they used to grind it out.
these days people want # for free. they walk off he job 2 days into it. they leave and never come back. they go from job to job.

I don't know about that. My field is odd, one one hand it's not uncommon for someone to put in 10 hours a day, and then be on call for the other 14, and the it's exempt from overtime laws in most states, but at the same time a work/life balance is something people look towards.

I would agree that people these days are less willing to take physically demanding work, but people don't shy away from long hours if the job requires it. Some people just look to different things. Would you consider doing the same math problem for a week plus over and over trying to find more efficient solutions easy?

anyway, good luck to you man.

Thanks, I speak much worse of it than I should but that's because I'm impatient. Being poor in the US has not gotten easier over the last few years, just the opposite actually.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
It is obvious you did not read the article I linked, it discussed the unprecedented growth from the Revolution to the 1970's. A stable dollar linked to a commodity was a large part of that growth.

I didn't, but I'm familiar with the argument. I've discussed it with a few actual economists.

Your made up numbers are still made up.

Do I need to quote the numbers from when we drug tested food stamp recipients? How about quoting the numbers proposed to eliminate social security fraud compared to what it's costing? Eliminating fraud is great, but when you spend more than it's costing you to stop all you're doing is amplifying the problem.

Interesting that someone as dirt poor as yourself found the means to invest in 10 years of college.

I went homeless putting the money to tuition to pay for community college, then I've used Pell Grants at low cost universities.

Stop making things up, we are above the post war boom years of the 1950's and 1960's with our 62-63% rate when it rarely crossed 60% during that era.

I said 40 years ago, here's a link for you
www.businessinsider.com...

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
It is obvious you did not read the article I linked, it discussed the unprecedented growth from the Revolution to the 1970's. A stable dollar linked to a commodity was a large part of that growth.

Sorry, accidentally deleted my post the first time and had to rewrite it forgot to rewrite this part. Since you like Forbes here's another article.
www.forbes.com...

Essentially, growing the money supply doesn't cause inflation which contradicts with your premise that we need to have a non fiat currency in order to curb inflation.

I suppose I would be on the Keynes side of things, though I think it's wrong in some areas. Your article, and your posts for that matter are very much against that line of thinking.

originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
a reply to: Mugly

pretty sure most fast food joints dont have it locked down like that.
if they could make 15 and smoke a bunch of times and check their phone all day then yeah, i think they would be out the door.

You think so? Whens the last time you saw a Mcdonald's employee just sitting around outside smoking cigarettes and playing with there phone?

Every time I go there to get myself a grand Angus burger... all I ever see is people battling away doing relentlessly repetitive tasks, standing over a hot grill. Or people at the counter constantly getting verbally abused and talked down to by obese arrogant morons.

I guess the grass always seems greener on the other side though.

Man I don't agree with you on much but folks working in fast food, do kind of have a crap deal.
No the work is not skilled but it is far from easy, and far from safe. Floors are covered in grease slicker than snot on a doorknob and vats of boiling oil are all over the place just waiting for someone to shove their hand in if they slip and try to catch themselves.
Its not as if they can"move at a safe and comfortable speed" on all those floors either, as most of the time I see them running all over the place in the back trying to get peoples orders up, while dodging one another in a cramped work space.