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Top Economists Are Backing Sen. Bernie Sanders on Establishing a $15 an Hour Minimum Wage

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posted on Jul, 31 2015 @ 04:35 AM
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a reply to: Aazadan

I'll briefly delve into this (briefly because I'd rather not completely hijack this thread with a discussion on the merits of extreme environmental protection over the needs of people...)

That problem can be resolved by lifting *some* of the more crushing of the federal environmental control and regulatory laws which truly do stifle economic growth. The United States sits on vast finite resources... and we've got an entire wing in DC adamant that we do nothing to properly tap those resources. Mining, logging, oil (at least when the feds aren't artificially futzing with the price of it in a pathetic effort to punish Russia), farmable land... all industrial resources which would easily provide the jobs America needs, especially if those tariffs and import taxes are reinstated and the feds rewrite the tax policy to actively encourage domestic production in America again.

America became the largest economy and had the most envied middle class in the world based on resource extraction and domestic manufacturing. Somewhere along the line, we screwed that up. The challenge is partially to track down what caused the US to lose it (unions? worker protections? global free trade? ridiculous regulations and red tape? trickle down economics?) and then target that issue with laser guided precision, destroying the obstacle and then reclaiming our future.




posted on Aug, 1 2015 @ 10:17 AM
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originally posted by: AlaskanDad
How would you propose to turn real estate into a free market, it has been propped up by 40 years of get rich marketing plans and interest bearing loans. How does one ever take away the these influences and create a free market.


The real estate market is one of the better free markets despite government intervention. The tangible aspect and high expected return still make it a good investment.

Firstly, Glass-Steagal needs to be reinstituted to prevent banks from comingling investment funds. Secondly, Dodd-Frank needs to be repealed as it has had the exact opposite affect; larger and larger banks are loaning less money. Thirdly, banks should be free to lend to who they want, i.e. borrowers with low risk instead of being forced to loan money to people who will never be able to repay. Fourthly, the Federal Reserve needs to incrementally increase interest rates as they have been held at this historic and artificial low for too long. As the rates go up more people will move to real estate as both a residence and investment.


The minimum wage should have been adjusted for cola and productivity on a timely manner, then there would have been no need to beg for a $15 an hour wage!


If we did not delink the dollar from gold there would be minimal inflation, it should be relinked to a basket of commodities which will afford real earning power for the middle class.



posted on Aug, 1 2015 @ 10:25 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
Let me tell you from experience, lacking a minimum wage doesn't work. I've got a disability...


I made it clear earlier my stance on this, I said there will always be people that require additional assistance and it is our obligation as a civilized nation to afford them these benefits. However, abuse must be closely monitored and harshly punished.


Most people on minimum wage already do this. In order to get rental prices within what is considered healthy (30% of income) you generally need 2 people per bedroom. Is it a valid business model for McDonalds to say that in order to work for them you have to live with your parents? These are career jobs now, them not offering independence is not good.


They are only career jobs if you make them so. Anyone with any type of marketable value will not be working their entire careers at McDonalds for minimum wage, the thought is preposterous.


Rent only goes down if property values go down. In order for this deflation you speak of to happen, peoples investments in their homes need to lose value. This also means their retirement accounts and other investments that are based on property values also depreciate. This would also mean property tax revenues decline which will result in large tax increases in other areas.



If rents are too high in a certain area people will move to were they are less or more new start ups will be built, that is how the real estate market operates. It is a true supply and demand situation.


Let me explain the economics of disability to you.


See my above comments, this explanation is not necessary.


Or they automate it, which creates a glut of labor and wages go down. Alternatively they do what the tech industry has done and import all the labor with H1B visas leaving Americans without jobs.


The Luddites worried about the same thing two hundred years ago.


We will also never get the government out of the market. Free markets are completely unsustainable because they result in monopolies. Competition as a concept is flawed because inevitably someone doesn't lose, which allows them to push everyone else out. This is why the most formidable economies on the planet today use government to fuel the private sector.


That is patently false, even the largest monopoly of the 19th/20th century, Standard Oil, had competition and was losing market share to competitors prior to its break up. Oddly, it is nearly reabsorbed all of its constituent companies with the merger of Exxon and Mobil and they do not have a monopoly on the market.



posted on Aug, 1 2015 @ 10:28 AM
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originally posted by: Subaeruginosa
So basically your advocating for a system where the democratically elected government has absolutely no power, but mega corporations and 1% have total rule over everything?


I would like a free market unhindered by government interference and a government that is not interfered with by the market. Lobbying should be banned and campaigns should only be run using public or personal financing.



No wonder the secret service have the fanatical conservatives under the radar! With such dangerous and extreme ideas, there a danger to the very fabric of society.


What retarded hyperbole. I am not a Conservative, I am a Free Market Libertarian.



posted on Aug, 1 2015 @ 11:03 AM
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AugustusMasonicus, your free market libertarianism is a crock of offal, and nothing more.




Firstly, Glass-Steagal needs to be reinstituted to prevent banks from comingling investment funds.


Would not a free market mean no government interference?




Fourthly, the Federal Reserve needs to incrementally increase interest rates as they have been held at this historic and artificial low for too long. As the rates go up more people will move to real estate as both a residence and investment.


Free market with the FED involved?????

I think you are a fraud!!!!!



posted on Aug, 1 2015 @ 03:17 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Firstly, Glass-Steagal needs to be reinstituted to prevent banks from comingling investment funds. Secondly, Dodd-Frank needs to be repealed as it has had the exact opposite affect; larger and larger banks are loaning less money. Thirdly, banks should be free to lend to who they want, i.e. borrowers with low risk instead of being forced to loan money to people who will never be able to repay. Fourthly, the Federal Reserve needs to incrementally increase interest rates as they have been held at this historic and artificial low for too long. As the rates go up more people will move to real estate as both a residence and investment.


Glass-Steagal is government intervention, more so than already exists. That is not the free market at work. In a free market banks can do whatever they want with your money, and it's up to competing banks to offer more attractive deals.

This actually happens to be why markets don't work. They assume that people are rational and have an expert level understanding of near perfect information. In reality people get very little information, often misunderstand it, and do not behave in a rational fashion. If markets work the AIG collapse never would have happened because people would have realized it was unsustainable.

If we did not delink the dollar from gold there would be minimal inflation, it should be relinked to a basket of commodities which will afford real earning power for the middle class.

It's very easy to have inflation under such a system, you increase the basket of commodities a dollar buys by 4% and you get 4% inflation. It doesn't change anything.


originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
I made it clear earlier my stance on this, I said there will always be people that require additional assistance and it is our obligation as a civilized nation to afford them these benefits. However, abuse must be closely monitored and harshly punished.


Disability has a fraud rate of less than 1% and isn't exactly lucrative. When I listen to these anti welfare rants I take them a bit personally because they all read to me like I'm being called a leech or worse. When people backtrack like you are doing now and specific it's the other people that are bad, it reads like a racist rant from someone who then turns to the black guy standing next to him and says "don't worry, you're one of the good ones".


They are only career jobs if you make them so. Anyone with any type of marketable value will not be working their entire careers at McDonalds for minimum wage, the thought is preposterous.


Really? We've overproduced skilled labor positions. I know pizza shops where every employee has an engineering degree. Do you think the 60 year olds working at McDonalds these days don't have any other skills? These jobs are careers now whether you like that or not. We've eliminated the jobs that used to be careers and even if we had them it's not possible for everyone to advance through the ranks.


If rents are too high in a certain area people will move to were they are less or more new start ups will be built, that is how the real estate market operates. It is a true supply and demand situation.


Except for when you're poor and you can't afford to move. Things like security deposits, first/last months rent, increased travel when you move further away, etc can easily eat up 2+ months of income. A simple move can require years of saving.


The Luddites worried about the same thing two hundred years ago.


And the Luddites were right, they were just 2 centuries early. The big difference is that machines of their day still required human input, the robotics of today don't. We're nearly at the point where an entire McDonalds can be automated, all that will be needed is one person on staff that can repair a machine if it breaks down and handle customer service issues.


That is patently false, even the largest monopoly of the 19th/20th century, Standard Oil, had competition and was losing market share to competitors prior to its break up. Oddly, it is nearly reabsorbed all of its constituent companies with the merger of Exxon and Mobil and they do not have a monopoly on the market.


Take a look at our ISP's which act as monopolies. Oil is a global market so even having a large market share in one country doesn't give them a serious advantage. ISP's on the other hand operate on a local level. Banks are also trending towards a monopoly but it's still a couple decades off.
edit on 1-8-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 09:33 AM
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originally posted by: AlaskanDad

AugustusMasonicus, your free market libertarianism is a crock of offal, and nothing more.


If you say so, but in order for you to insult me I would first have to value your opinion.




Would not a free market mean no government interference?


There can be minimal restraints.




Free market with the FED involved?????

I think you are a fraud!!!!!


When you figure out how to eliminate it give us all a call, I am operating under the assumption that realistic change would be made, elimination of the Federal Reserve is not something that is going to happen.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 09:42 AM
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I have no doubt this has already been said. But, I'll say it anyways.

Milk is what, $3 or so a gallon?

Guess what. Minimum wage goes to a ridiculous rate, and the cost of milk goes up. Cost of labor has a direct impact on cost of goods.

Or, as McDonalds is doing with automated vending machines, you simply bypass the labor altogether.


This is nothing more than "feel good economics". And, it's bullsh*t. If you don't like your hourly pay...get a real f*cking job. Yeah, I know, I'm heartless. But guess what. I slung burgers at McDonald's as my first job. I've washed dishes. Bussed tables. Done construction labor. Waited tables. Bartended. Retail sales. Retail Management. Tech Support. IT Hardware. Programming.

Life is a pit. Either crawl your way out, or don't. Not everyone gets to be a millionaire. Not everyone gets a snowflake of an existence.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 09:52 AM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

Glass-Steagal is government intervention, more so than already exists. That is not the free market at work. In a free market banks can do whatever they want with your money, and it's up to competing banks to offer more attractive deals.


See my above comments.


This actually happens to be why markets don't work. They assume that people are rational and have an expert level understanding of near perfect information. In reality people get very little information, often misunderstand it, and do not behave in a rational fashion. If markets work the AIG collapse never would have happened because people would have realized it was unsustainable.


The issue was only a handful of people understood the market dynamics of credit default swaps and exploited the revocation of Glass-Steagal to manipulate the market.


It's very easy to have inflation under such a system, you increase the basket of commodities a dollar buys by 4% and you get 4% inflation. It doesn't change anything.


It prevents you from unlimited printing and spending as you devalue your currency with that type of behavior. That is where real and lasting inflation comes from. The fluctuation of the market are to be expected and are cyclical, rampant currency printing and its use to buy debt are damaging.


Disability has a fraud rate of less than 1% and isn't exactly lucrative. When I listen to these anti welfare rants I take them a bit personally because they all read to me like I'm being called a leech or worse.


Why do you take fraud prevention personally? Are you hyper-sensitive or something? Get over yourself. If you are a leech then you deserve to be prosecuted, if you are not then what are you worried about?


When people backtrack like you are doing now and specific it's the other people that are bad, it reads like a racist rant from someone who then turns to the black guy standing next to him and says "don't worry, you're one of the good ones".


Where have I backtracked? My initial comment was quite clear and if you have some sort of reading comprehension issue you should not be blaming me.


Really? We've overproduced skilled labor positions. I know pizza shops where every employee has an engineering degree. Do you think the 60 year olds working at McDonalds these days don't have any other skills? These jobs are careers now whether you like that or not. We've eliminated the jobs that used to be careers and even if we had them it's not possible for everyone to advance through the ranks.


Bull. Sad sack perspectives like yours are what is entirely wrong with society. Your silly anecdotal mention of a pizzeria that is staffed entirely by engineers is so ludicrous in its supposition that it is barely worth refuting. If all the engineering positions in the United States were taken why do we even bother to have E-3/H1-b/O visas?


Except for when you're poor and you can't afford to move. Things like security deposits, first/last months rent, increased travel when you move further away, etc can easily eat up 2+ months of income. A simple move can require years of saving.


A determined person will make it happen.


And the Luddites were right, they were just 2 centuries early. The big difference is that machines of their day still required human input, the robotics of today don't. We're nearly at the point where an entire McDonalds can be automated, all that will be needed is one person on staff that can repair a machine if it breaks down and handle customer service issues.


Well I guess that will rapidly solve the dilemma of the underpaid fast food worker. I suggest you and them take a crowbar to the machines now and uphold your ancestral anti-progress pedigree.


Take a look at our ISP's which act as monopolies. Oil is a global market so even having a large market share in one country doesn't give them a serious advantage. ISP's on the other hand operate on a local level. Banks are also trending towards a monopoly but it's still a couple decades off.


I have several choices in my area for internet service, I fail to see the issue.

In regards banks you can thank Dodd-Frank for that, more government, reactionary interventionism that had the exact opposite affect.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

i think his post about every person working in that pizza with an engineering degree is quite amusing.

im calling major BS on it or if on the off chance he is telling the truth then there is more to it.
maybe every single one of them have something in their background that will not allow for a better job.
maybe, just maybe they are bored retirees. that happens.

still though. not buying it



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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originally posted by: Mugly

i think his post about every person working in that pizza with an engineering degree is quite amusing.


Yeah, I could see them all scrambling around making replicas of the Coliseum with pizzas and calzones.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 10:20 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

you know it.

every one of them has a degree.
probably all named archimedes too.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 01:57 PM
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originally posted by: Mugly
im calling major BS on it or if on the off chance he is telling the truth then there is more to it.
maybe every single one of them have something in their background that will not allow for a better job.
maybe, just maybe they are bored retirees. that happens.


They're not retirees, I went to college with most of them. That's just what's available in the area for work.


originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
It prevents you from unlimited printing and spending as you devalue your currency with that type of behavior. That is where real and lasting inflation comes from. The fluctuation of the market are to be expected and are cyclical, rampant currency printing and its use to buy debt are damaging.


We had plenty of inflation before leaving the gold standard too. The gold standard doesn't prevent inflation at all because banks can still leverage their assets. It just means most dollars can't be redeemed for anything at all in a crash. Instead we have the FDIC that can atleast do something by insuring deposits for some.


Why do you take fraud prevention personally? Are you hyper-sensitive or something? Get over yourself. If you are a leech then you deserve to be prosecuted, if you are not then what are you worried about?


Because it's a very small amount of the total. When people speak of reforms they aren't speaking of getting rid of the handful of fraud cases. I assume people aren't being hysterical over a non existent problem which means they're not targeting the few fraud cases that exist... the ones they want to go after others.


Bull. Sad sack perspectives like yours are what is entirely wrong with society. Your silly anecdotal mention of a pizzeria that is staffed entirely by engineers is so ludicrous in its supposition that it is barely worth refuting. If all the engineering positions in the United States were taken why do we even bother to have E-3/H1-b/O visas?


Companies go for H1B's for a multitude of reasons. The big one is that they can pay much less. The majority of American's tend to want a real wage, while someone brought over on a work visa will work for 50% of the pay. Which means one of two things, either these jobs are no longer worth what we pretend they're worth and we shouldn't be holding STEM degrees up as what people should be learning to do or companies aren't being honest about attempting to hire Americans first. In reality it's a mixture of both. Throwing out made up numbers here, we have a need for say 50,000 new computer science jobs per year, but we produce 60,000, while at the same time we bring over 30,000 workers. This ultimately means that 2 out of 3 new graduates don't get jobs.


A determined person will make it happen.


Being determined doesn't change the economics. Moving to a place that costs less rent requires years of savings, then further years to recoup your initial investment in the move. If your rent costs $600/month, you can put $50 per month in savings, and you need $1500 in order to make a move to a place that costs $500/month you're looking at 30 months to save for the move, then another 15 months to break even... nearly 4 years, and that's for something simple.


Well I guess that will rapidly solve the dilemma of the underpaid fast food worker. I suggest you and them take a crowbar to the machines now and uphold your ancestral anti-progress pedigree.


Not at all, where the Luddites went wrong is in assuming that everyone should have to work. The real dilemma is that the jobs we've based our economy on are about to vanish with no replacements. Our economic system is going to have to change to not assume everyone is working 40, or even 30 hours per week.


I have several choices in my area for internet service, I fail to see the issue.


Most places get 1 choice for internet service. Even in the areas that have several, there's only one backbone provider.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 02:51 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

calling BS again.
it does not take no damn 30 months to save for a move to a $600 a month place.

i think what your problem is is that you are simply throwing out stats and calculations on how much things cost or how long they will take on paper.
thats not how it works in the real world.

these days you dont need 1st months, last months, and security to move in.
look in the paper and on craigslist around here and you see a lot, and i mean a lot of apartments, duplexes, townhouses, etc that have all kinds of specials.
the last apartment my wife and i had before she got pregnant we moved in for $99 and we got a $100 gift card to wal mart at the end of the first month.
our credit is not great but it is ok. no evictions so we qualify.

i see a lot that require one month and a $99 deposit.

some are move in for $99 with an 18 month lease.

some places around here offer discounts on rent depending on where you work.

maybe it is december and you are thinking about moving. well, tax check time is right around the corner. hook up with one of those move in specials and youre good to go.
dont tell me that in your state/county there are no places like that cause it can not be possible that it is only in my area.

this is when you probably chime in to tell me that the engineers you know have to wait 30 months to come up with the whole knot because they have terrible credit and evictions and such right?
of course its not their fault though. it is the ex wife. it is the economy. it is the government.
since nothing is their fault we must double their wages huh?

there is a place about 4 miles from me. this complex owns about 20 different units and 5 of them are based on income only. not ragged out. not section 8. just based on income.

my brothers 'friend' went to see about them and we tagged along. these places were nice man. locked entry. the one she was looking at was 2 bedroom. nice appliances.
she was a part time hostess at bob evans. she signed a lease and her rent was $35 a month.
if i were to rent the same apartment it would have been about $700 cause of income.

there are also all kinds of programs to help with utility costs. again, cant be only around here.
there is one here called P.I.P.
my neighbor is on it. he went to the county community action agency and applied. his electric is $10 a month and his gas is $10 a month.
not bad eh?
there are only x amount of slots each season so people need to apply straight away. if they do not make it they will be put on a list.

so save all the 30 months to move crap cause its not true.

there has to be similar things in your general area.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 03:30 PM
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a reply to: Mugly

Replies like this are why I'm convinced I actually live in some weird Twilight Zone version of the US or that we actually live in two completely different countries.

No one here offers discounts, and everyone requires first/last and security and no one ever returns security when you move. The median wage in this area isn't even full time minimum wage (yes, you're in the top 50% if you can work full time at minimum wage), and section 8 if you can get enough points (most can't) has a 6 year waiting list.

As far as Pipp goes, it stands for percentage of income payment. If you only have electric your bill is 10% of your income and if you have electric and gas your bill for each is 6% of your income. The agreement works such that any overage on your bill is still applied to your account but you don't have to pay it. At the start of the following winter you need to pay any overage between your percentage and the amount billed, usually this comes to a couple hundred dollars. So for example if you make a little more money you immediately have to pay a debt which now leaves you without money for the following winter. Instead you have to maintain a low income and apply along side pipp for HEAP funding to pay the overage.

As far as saving for years goes, yes it really is true. I just had to do it, a friend of mine did it recently. That is the reality of being low income.
edit on 2-8-2015 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan
We had plenty of inflation before leaving the gold standard too.


Not at the same rate since 1971.


The gold standard doesn't prevent inflation at all because banks can still leverage their assets.


Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said 'prevent' I said minimizes.


It just means most dollars can't be redeemed for anything at all in a crash. Instead we have the FDIC that can atleast do something by insuring deposits for some.


Huh? Why would a dollar tied to commodities not be redeemable?


Because it's a very small amount of the total. When people speak of reforms they aren't speaking of getting rid of the handful of fraud cases. I assume people aren't being hysterical over a non existent problem which means they're not targeting the few fraud cases that exist... the ones they want to go after others.


So what if it is a small percent, it is still illegal and needs to be punished.


Companies go for H1B's for a multitude of reasons. The big one is that they can pay much less. The majority of American's tend to want a real wage, while someone brought over on a work visa will work for 50% of the pay. Which means one of two things, either these jobs are no longer worth what we pretend they're worth and we shouldn't be holding STEM degrees up as what people should be learning to do or companies aren't being honest about attempting to hire Americans first. In reality it's a mixture of both. Throwing out made up numbers here, we have a need for say 50,000 new computer science jobs per year, but we produce 60,000, while at the same time we bring over 30,000 workers. This ultimately means that 2 out of 3 new graduates don't get jobs.


A degree is only worth the investiture if a return can be generated from that education. Far too many people attend college these days, for various reasons, than should while trades and other skilled labor positions remain available. If people are willing to work for less, be they Americans or foreigners on a visa what is the next step, a minimum wage for engineers?


Being determined doesn't change the economics. Moving to a place that costs less rent requires years of savings, then further years to recoup your initial investment in the move. If your rent costs $600/month, you can put $50 per month in savings, and you need $1500 in order to make a move to a place that costs $500/month you're looking at 30 months to save for the move, then another 15 months to break even... nearly 4 years, and that's for something simple.


Your made up numbers are made up. This hypothetical poor person has so many possessions that it will take over a year for them to save up to afford the movers and secure a down payment? Bull. Try not to exaggerate so much next time.


Not at all, where the Luddites went wrong is in assuming that everyone should have to work. The real dilemma is that the jobs we've based our economy on are about to vanish with no replacements. Our economic system is going to have to change to not assume everyone is working 40, or even 30 hours per week.


The sky is falling rhetoric has been repeated ad nauseum with no manifestation of the alleged doom ever appearing. The same will hold true here. New sectors and industries appear regularly, it will happen again, much to the chagrin of the Luddite crowd.


Most places get 1 choice for internet service. Even in the areas that have several, there's only one backbone provider.


And just like my utility who owns the infrastructure I am still able to get multiple competitive rates on delivery and play them against each other for better pricing.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

maybe you do live in some strange zone then cause those deals on rentals are all over the place. nice places too.
about the utility percentage thing.
i think you pay the 10% if you are in a certain bracket. if youre not then it is $10 a month.
my neighbor pays 10. i know cause he loves to tell me about it all the time.

well i guess since in your alternate reality if it really does take more than 2 years of savings to move then you need to do some research and move to a spot where there is some work. seems logical to me.

for me though, if that really is how it is near you, and just being honest but i dont think it is.
i would be skimping on everything to cut that save time way, way down.
drop the high data plan. ditch the cable. lower the bandwidth on cable. eat differently.
if you like beer, stop. if you buy smokes, stop.

things can be done.

it just sounds to be like you think you have everything figured out but im getting the feeling you dont.
youve got mad stats and flow charts and #.
i just told you about a program that is 10 bucks a month for electric and gas and you fly in and rip it up and say well yeah but you will be broke for the next winter and have to keep a low income.
its not true man...
have you gone to your agency and asked to speak with someone?
im guessing you are going no further than google.

sorry man but it all sounds like excuses to me....

know what else is around here? a crazy amount of food banks. you gonna tell me those dont exist in your area?
they are all over around here. lots of churches offer the food bank every other friday. some on the second tuesday.
there is a sheet you can pick up at any of them and it gives you the schedule for all of them. so, you can go to a bank a week.
i went a couple times right after i got hurt. i just wanted to see what it was about but then i felt bad cause i really didnt need to be doing it. before i went i was like F it, free #.
after i left i felt bad cause i had money for groceries.
but anyway, those banks offer killer stuff too.
i got full roasting chickens. ground beef. they had friggin ribs. all kinds of canned goods...breads.
pork loin kits with all the veggies already in them.
shampoo and other stuff like that.
baby supplies.

all you have to do is register with your ID and a bill with your name on it to prove you live in the county. then you can go.

but i forgot. they dont have those around you and even if they did you will tell me about how you will get dicked over in the end and have to stay low income or something.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 04:05 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said 'prevent' I said minimizes.


It doesn't minimize it, again as long as fractional reserve banking is a thing, all money is effectively fiat anyways.


Huh? Why would a dollar tied to commodities not be redeemable?


Because it means you need to keep those commodities out of the market so they can be exchanged for dollars by the banks. If dollars are backed by oil for example, it means you need to buy up oil so that you have some on hand to trade for dollars, in addition to what people are buying and selling on the market.


So what if it is a small percent, it is still illegal and needs to be punished.


It has to do with cost effectiveness. Would you spend 1 billion to stamp out 500 million in corruption?


A degree is only worth the investiture if a return can be generated from that education. Far too many people attend college these days, for various reasons, than should while trades and other skilled labor positions remain available. If people are willing to work for less, be they Americans or foreigners on a visa what is the next step, a minimum wage for engineers?


That's because blue collar work is on it's way out. Trades will be automated within 40 years. I see people push the trades here all the time, but those same people say a tradesman only earns $20/hour for the early part of their career. STEM jobs pay $75k/year out of college (if you can get a job). One of those is a wage that tops out at what the other starts at. I don't see how pushing trades above other jobs solves the issue. And even if it did, not everyone can be a plumber, mechanic, or welder, the world needs other jobs.


Your made up numbers are made up. This hypothetical poor person has so many possessions that it will take over a year for them to save up to afford the movers and secure a down payment? Bull. Try not to exaggerate so much next time.


Because of number of possessions? No. Most poor people I know (myself included) don't even own a bed. First/last month, security deposits, utility deposits, and all the rest cost money. You clearly haven't ever been poor so you don't understand these things.


The sky is falling rhetoric has been repeated ad nauseum with no manifestation of the alleged doom ever appearing. The same will hold true here. New sectors and industries appear regularly, it will happen again, much to the chagrin of the Luddite crowd.


And every single time the number of jobs available have decreased. People have remained employed by reducing the number of hours worked. In the last 200 years we've gone from 12 hour days 6 days per week to 6 hour days 5 days per week.


And just like my utility who owns the infrastructure I am still able to get multiple competitive rates on delivery and play them against each other for better pricing.


Where I live there is exactly one choice for internet. They have a 99 year monopoly agreement with the city. No competition is allowed.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

engineering is a trade.
there will still be loads of jobs available for actual people in 40 years.

have you even been in a manufacturing plant?
have you been in a foundry? been inside an extrusion or drop continuous casting foundry?

loads and loads of jobs now. just like 50 years ago and just like there will be 50 years from now.

you are pulling all of your knowledge base off the net or from text books or something.
you dont have any work experience save for a pizza shop. pretty sure thats what you said.

how can you really know if you have never seen some of these things with your own eyes.
there are jobs to be had my friend.



posted on Aug, 2 2015 @ 04:20 PM
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originally posted by: Mugly
well i guess since in your alternate reality if it really does take more than 2 years of savings to move then you need to do some research and move to a spot where there is some work. seems logical to me.


Moving isn't that simple.


drop the high data plan. ditch the cable. lower the bandwidth on cable. eat differently.
if you like beer, stop. if you buy smokes, stop.


I don't have a high data plan (or any data plan actually), my internet service comes from my neighbors and I all banding together and splitting the cost (costs me about $15/month), I don't own a TV so there's no need for cable, and my food budget comes to $55/month (that's what being single gets you for food stamps). I haven't drank beer (or any alcohol) in over a decade, and I don't smoke.

This really sums up the disconnect that you think these types of extravagant purchases are being made.


i just told you about a program that is 10 bucks a month for electric and gas and you fly in and rip it up and say well yeah but you will be broke for the next winter and have to keep a low income.
its not true man...
have you gone to your agency and asked to speak with someone?
im guessing you are going no further than google.


Yes. I was on the program for years. I'm not anymore because I moved and those utilities are included in the rent. When I went off the program so that I could move, it also cost me electric back payments because of how the billing system works (which I just explained).


but i forgot. they dont have those around you and even if they did you will tell me about how you will get dicked over in the end and have to stay low income or something.


The nearest food bank is a 2 hour drive so I can't say I've ever been to one. That comes out to a full tank of gas to go there and back, so I question the economics of such a thing.





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