Little Sisters of the Poor Aiding in the Religious Right Wing's Agenda for a Theocratic Government

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Gryphon66

Jehovah's witnesses don't believe in blood transfusions. Doesn't a ruling like this mean that a JW business could deny health insurance coverage for life saving blood transfusion procedures on its employees?

As far as I know, the only religious objection being entertained is regarding birth control. I don't believe Obamacare has a provision for other coverage objections, but I'm not sure. It's a great question, though and precedent has been set with Hobby Lobby that could lead to that.

From Hobby Lobby decision:

This decision concerns only the contraceptive mandate and should not be understood to hold that all insurance-coverage mandates, e.g., for vaccinations or blood transfusions, must necessarily fall if they conflict with an employer’s religious beliefs. Nor does it provide a shield for employers who might cloak illegal discrimination as a religious practice.

originally posted by: Freenrgy2
You're worried about a group of nuns, who will somehow magically turn government into a theocracy,

No one is worried about the nuns. If you read the OP, you'd know that. If the only way you can argue is to make crap up, your position is not strong.

You lost me at theocratic government. Honestly, every other valid point you had was just drowned out in your title.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I'm sorry to see that this thread has been a conservative:liberal free-for-all from Page One onward. I would have liked, as I'm sure you would, to see the actual topic discussed in realistic terms. It's an important one.

I am giving the Sisters the benefit of the doubt, for the time being

I wonder why you would want to do that.

The Little Sisters of the Poor represent the right wing of the Roman Catholic Church, which has been in the ascendant ever since the reign of Pope Paul VI, and which has been responsible for quashing people's movements for equality, justice and human rights, particularly in Latin America, for over half a century, as well as for the hardening of attitudes against abortion, contraception and women's rights which we saw under the papacies of John Paul II and Benedict XVI.

This tendency was also instrumental in bringing down the former Soviet empire, but that does not compensate for its many strikes against humanism, egalitarianism and freedom.

The current Pope, however, favours the opposite side — the left-leaning, people-centred side of the Catholic Church that once gave birth to 'liberation theology' and which has a sterling record of fighting on behalf of the common people, the poor and the oppressed, all over the world — including in my own country.

Pope Francis's incumbency has set the reactionaries back considerably in terms of popularity and public share-of-mind among Catholics, but it has not drawn their teeth: far from it, as we see here.

Let us not forget who we're talking about. The Little Sisters of the Poor were founded by the late 'Mother Teresa', a fraud who accepted huge sums in donations to her charity but spent them on endowing opulent shrines and chapels for the Church rather than on poor and suffering people in the slums of Calcutta, the nominal beneficiaries on whose behalf those sums were collected. She was happy to accept money from dictators (the Duvaliers of Haiti) and swindlers (Charles Keating of Lincoln Savings & Loan) and, when it was pointed out that she was a receiver of stolen property (and blood money), simply never gave any of it back.

She told the world's great and good, as well as the world media, that 'abortion was the greatest threat to world peace' in her Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech, refused to endorse antiwar movements or attend rallies, and spent much of her time flying around the world by private jet and living in the mansions of the super-rich, while the recipients of her 'charity' starved and died in the Sisters' hospices in India.

She was easily one of the most evil people ever to have been hailed as a popular saint, and she did more than almost anyone else to help the reactionary tendency maintain its stranglehold on the upper echelons of the Catholic hierarchy.

Of course the Sisters continue the fight against humanity and compassion in favour of bigotry and raw power. That's the plot in which their stake was always planted.

Well done, BH. Unfortunately the intellectual level on ATS these days is far too low to sustain a thread like this one on topic.

originally posted by: VictorVonDoom
So, a bunch of nuns don't want to sign a form = a right wing agenda to establish a Christian theocracy.

Got to love election season.

Thank God (or whomever) that the left wing is there to save us from these backward religious fanatics. This country would go down the tubes in short order if people in the government felt that it was wrong to lie, or steal, or take bribes, or cheat on their spouses, or murder, or torture people, or go to war for profit.

Before you know it, the radical Christian theocracic government might decree that people had the right to choose whether or not they wanted to buy something. Or they might decide that spending money taking care of our poor, our homeless, and our veterans was more important than handing out foreign aid or spying on everyone in the world.

Good thing we have the left wing and moderate right wingers to prevent such radical nonsense.

Wow. That was a big straw man you built and dismantled there. Well done.

a reply to: Freenrgy2

Fear you? LOL

If the argument isn't about socialists and progressives being religious, why did you bring it up? The topic regards religious shirking of regulations and avoidance of the law. Leave the silly personal commentary to the side.

Again, no one is "worried" about nuns. No one believes that nuns have magic power. Not sure who my side is, but in America, Democrats and Republicans have shared power for most of what we would call modern times.

Not sure how your personal testimony affects the topic. In general, people who disagree politically, well, act like they disagree politically.

Your FEAR, you say? Sounds to me like you're projecting your fear onto anyone and everyone you disagree with.

Fear you? Physician, heal thyself.

a reply to: raymundoko

OK. Why? Did you read more than the title?

Do you disagree that there is a force in this country that wants a theocratic government and is doing what they can to make religious tenets into laws?

American Theocracy: Who is Trying to Turn America Into a Theocracy?

“I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian nation. We have a biblical duty, we are called on by God to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism.” Randall Terry, founder of Operation Rescue
...
“So let us be blunt about it: We must use the doctrine of religious liberty to gain independence for Christian schools until we train up a generation of people who know that there is no religious neutrality, no neutral law, no neutral education, and no neutral civil government. Then they will get busy in constructing a Bible-based social, political and religious order which finally denies the religious liberty of the enemies of God.”
–Gary North
...
"Christians have an obligation, a mandate, a commission, a holy responsibility to reclaim the land for Jesus Christ -- to have dominion in civil structures, just as in every other aspect of life and godliness. But it is dominion we are after. Not just a voice. It is dominion we are after. Not just influence. It is dominion we are after. Not just equal time. It is dominion we are after. World conquest. That's what Christ has commissioned us to accomplish. -George Grant

originally posted by: Astyanax
I wonder why you would want to do that.

Because I still want to have hope that the individuals who are involved are in the business of helping people. I'm not stating that they're innocent, but I have hope that they are. I don't think the actual Sisters who work there are operating under some nefarious scheme... but I could be wrong. I definitely believe the Catholic Church is guilty of trying to create a theocracy, among MANY other nefarious undertakings.

I agree with your points completely. The Pope, Mother Teresa, etc. But I still want to believe that at least SOME nuns are in it to do God's work, by helping people.

Well done, BH. Unfortunately the intellectual level on ATS these days is far too low to sustain a thread like this one on topic.

Yeah, I kinda knew that going in, but wanted to get the information out there.

a reply to: Astyanax

I beg to differ on one point at least....

Your stance on the freedom of women to choose abortion is touching and one I supported - until my wife described what doctors are literally doing, when they abort a fetus:

They are scraping the insides of the womb and ripping human parts and pieces out. She knows because she was their accompanying nurse-in-training.

BTW: Steve Jobs was an orphan - no telling what those little human beings brought in to the world can turn into!

We build a world full of political lack of accountability that creates financial stresses and moral stresses in our society - and people like Mother Teresa are lambasted for ideals that you don't share - but worked for the poor it supported - according to numerous witnesses. The same witnesses that you quote in stating the Catholic church's excessive behaviours in Latin America.

I happen to be a Catholic and the system they've created for us - is one we are under the impression extends around the world - I don't see a problem - so where is your proof.

“I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian nation."

That is the spirit of the anti-christ. There is no hate in what Christ taught people to do:

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful." - Luke 6:35-36

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?" - Matthew 5:44-46

Don't be tricked into hating the loving teachings of Christ because of what anti-Christ people do in the name of "Christ" which they were never told to do.

originally posted by: arpgme
Don't be tricked into hating the loving teachings of Christ because of what anti-Christ people do in the name of "Christ" which they were never told to do.

Oh, I'm not. For the most part, I believe strongly in the teachings of Christ. People who actually follow Christ are not who I'm concerned about. It's the ones who USE religion (Christianity, Muslim, etc) as a political tool and an excuse to hate and condemn those who are different from them, that concern me.

I am not fooled. Those people aren't Christians. They are hate mongers and control freaks.

Thanks for your input. Always welcome!

a reply to: arpgme

I know I probably missed it but do you have a source for this:

“I want you to just let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian nation."

I'd like to see what else is there.

a reply to: Astyanax
Asty, that was the best damn post in this thread. I hope you got an applause for it, even though I know you could care less. I learned something I didn't know today.

On topic: I honestly don't know how much of a "threat" dominionists really are, but any organization, religious or otherwise, that is vying for undue influence over government policies and laws, needs to be exposed and dismantled. Unfortunately, that doesn't happen near as often as it should.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

You have a super post.

People should applaud what you say.

I for one do.

Unfortunately, that doesn't happen merely as often as it should.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

I don't think the actual Sisters who work there are operating under some nefarious scheme.

No, I don't suppose they are. They're the foot soldiers, who signed up because they bought the idealism and the propaganda, and are still trying their best to make it all work out. But don't forget Donovan's parable of the Universal Soldier: in the end, it is the size of the division that gives the army its power. Take away the soldiers and there is no more war.

a reply to: Astyanax

Idealism and propoganda - that describes your government and their constitutional rewrites for the corporatocracy - which you are well aware of is your "religion".

You alienate idealism and propoganda, as if in and of itself - it is the enemy. I don't see that as being true.

I see buying the wrong ideals and propoganda as being the enemy - and those enemies are the state. They rob the people blind and make religious claims to support their position.

Whereas religion was started by people who made ideals of figuring out through their historical experience and moral stories - the best way to share the outcomes for the stakeholders of the "system", so that the stakeholders would NOT be interested in "sabotage".

a reply to: sensibleSenseless

You're welcome to your views.

Here are mine: unwanted children are a fact of life, which has to be dealt with somehow.

In the ancient world, they abandoned their unwanted babies on the hillsides, and the wolves did the rest. In some parts of the world, this practice or others comparable to it are still followed. I think abortion, carried out legally by qualified doctors under clinical conditions, is a vastly preferable response to the problem.

Because, even in a society that practices the contraception your Church does not approve of, the problem is huge.

How big exactly? Allow me.

I live in a country where abortion is illegal, and the conservative grip on society is unyielding and powerful. From time to time, I do some work for the national Planned Parenthood association, which doesn't even dare to campaign for the law to be changed, but instead does what it can by distribution information and contraceptives. It is through my work with these well-meaning folk that I have come to know that, in my country, upwards of 800 illegal abortions are performed every day. Some are carried out in secret by moonlighting doctors, but many are perpetrated by unlicensed and sometimes incompetent practitioners under conditions that are often insanitary, and where proper care is neglected. The results are predictable: 'post-abortion care' is a commonplace of gynaecological practice in our hospitals. Our hospitals are state-run, so it is the taxpayer who pays for the abortionists' mistakes.

How big, again? Well, 800 abortions a day works out to roughly one abortion a year for every fifty women of childbearing age in my country. Or, to interpret the statistic differently, it means that every other women of childbearing age has had at least one abortion. One illegal, quite probably dangerous, quite possibly botched abortion.

My compatriots are not particularly sex-crazed or fertile, though it's a poor country and contraceptive use is low. Still, I imagine this rate cannot be too far from the norm in most of the rest of the world. Even America, I read, has some 3,000 abortions a day — roughly the same rate, since the number of women of childbearing age in the USA is about 65 million.

That's how big the problem of unwanted babies is. And make no mistake: it is an ordinary, human problem, one that radically affects the lives of millions of ordinary folk, particularly women. What solutions does the Catholic Church offer for this problem? Abstain or bite the bullet. For a problem this size, I'm afraid that's simply not good enough.

a reply to: sensibleSenseless

I see buying the wrong ideals and propoganda as being the enemy - and those enemies are the state. They rob the people blind and make religious claims to support their position.

Whereas religion was started by people who made ideals of figuring out through their historical experience and moral stories - the best way to share the outcomes for the stakeholders of the "system", so that the stakeholders would NOT be interested in "sabotage".

That's all very fine, but I prefer to think of this problem in terms of real people rather than in the rarefied language of power struggles between institutions. Institutions are made of people.

the corporatocracy - which you are well aware of is your "religion"

What in the world can you possibly mean?

originally posted by: dawnstar
I know I probably missed it but do you have a source for this:

It was from my post. Here's the source: www.brucegourley.com...

a reply to: Astyanax

True religion isn't a scriptural book - it is the change in the way people behave - that is true religion.

Ideals written on paper - that is what a religious book is - just like the constitution. Just because one claims to uphold the values written therein, doesn't make that necessarily so.

It isn't the fault of religion, that those who claim to be religious aren't.

But, our constitution now, is what you argue our new behaviour should be and that we have attained perfection that religious ideals are not fit to provide.

Yet, I have worked alongside many an aetheist, who after having seen my "values", will defend my life, if someone were to unjustly attempt to take it. We are putting our lives at risk for our countries which are mixes of such "brothers" and "sisters" - for the politically re-written bibles of conduct called the constitution and we still haven't achieved freedom from tyranny.

Take the war in Iraq over allegedly found "weapons of mass destruction" - it was a poorly disguised attempt at handing Bushes buddies the oil industry in Iraq and "you and I" pay for it. That is your bible.