muslims and christains agree that....

a reply to: Belcastro

The reason I ask is because I don't recall a comparative to Genesis' "the word was God"...

I've tried having another look, but none of the creation parts of the Quran seem to suggest the Universe was spoken into existence.

It more elaborates on Genesis by going into other details.

a reply to: Entreri06

Muslims don't believe Jesus is the son of God, but no where, when correctly interpreted, does the Quran say Jesus is not the son of God. Since Jesus is the only one noted as Messiah in the Quran he has a higher importance than any other prophet. Since no other prophets are called Messiah, he can't be just a prophet as many Muslims claim.

Christians believe he is God although Jesus never claimed to be anything other than God's son.

Both Muslims and Christians are wrong.

Both the Quran and the Bible are correct.

Interesting to note. Both books say the believers will be lead away from the truth until the final messenger or Christ himself returns, depending on how one interprets the texts.

The word of God spoken of is Light, when God the father says the words "Let their be Light". Jesus claims to be the Light and those are the words of God.

So the word of God is Light. The word of God is Jesus.

originally posted by: Belcastro
Apparently, Muslims and Christians both agree that jesus is the word of god, as described in both the bible and the quran.
they both believe in jesus' miraculous birth from the virgin mary.

they also both believe that jesus is the messiah.

what they cant agree on though, is whether or not the word is creator or creation.
in the Bible, the word was god.

In the Quran, God created the universe through the Word.

so either muslims have misinterpreted their holy texts, or christians have. or both.

what do you think?

Here is what the Bible says about the Word being God before he was manifested in the flesh and dwelt among them.

1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Ok these verses show us that the word is Jesus and that nothing was created without him and that Jesus is God.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

that is in John 1 that the word was God before he was manifested in the flesh as Jesus Christ.

originally posted by: Belcastro
I haven't read the quran for myself yet...

Let me save you some time...

One does not understand a cult by joining the cult and reading their own writings.

It is impossible to understand propaganda by STUDYING propaganda.

This would be like trying to decipher Scientology by reading "Dianetics".

Or listening to politicians to learn the truth about politics.

Religion is a powerful form of mind control used by the ruling class to manipulate and enslave the masses.

Studying propaganda will only make one more confused than he already is.

I cannot find one thing original in the Qur'an as I wrote in my own blog but what surprises me is that there are those who argue that the "borrowing" is minimal and advances the cause of religion--while the Qur'an rejects religious, human, and civil rights. This is crass at best. ~ Dr Arthur Frederick Ide

Islam's Plagiarized Christian Origins

The Qur’an/Koran of Islam is a collage of myths, plagiarisms, contradictions, and ignorance of sciences and mathematics. Contradictions in the Qur’an/Koran are numerous. Historical errors and errors in scientific fact are extensive and ludicrous.

There are more contradictions, errors, lies, and historical inaccuracies in the Qur’an/Koran than time permits, but these contradictions, errors, lies, and historical inaccuracies go unchallenged while the wrath of Islam continues to murder, maim, steal and defame people who attempt to treat it with magnanimity in the name of religious freedom. But Islam is not a religion–it is a martial and militant lifestyle that has no concern for human or civil rights–only for its advance against free will.

Qur’an: Contradictions, Myths, Plagiarisms, and more

The comparative analysis of the Gnostic heresies with the Islamic teaching denying the crucifixion confirms the theory that Islam borrowed the denial and its means from the Gnostic Docetism. No matter how reluctant Muslim scholars are to admit it, the sudden occurrence of the denial of Jesus’ crucifixion in the Qur’an and the absolute political nature of this denial indicate that Muhammad adopted from Gnostic heresies only after distorting the Gnostic creed by straining it through a political filter. Consequently, what we read today about Jesus’ death in the Qur’an is the distorted version of Gnosticism, which is fathered by Muhammad’s anti-Jewish sentiments and ideology.

Immature Resurrection of Gnosticism in Islam

You MUST rely on your own personal experience if you really want the truth.

That is where you come to a place where you KNOW instead of just believe.

Too many spend their entire lives studying religion or seeking enlightenment instead of going to the SOURCE or trying to connect with the very meaning of life and the creator of the universe.

Below are a couple examples:

Praying all night in the mosque, he asked God to help him. Suddenly he felt drops of oil falling on him and even smelled its fragrance, he says. He claims another time he heard an audible voice telling him to read a Bible—an abomination to a Muslim. “We would not touch a modern-day Bible,” he says. “This voice immediately put a desire in my heart. It is so vivid, so clear, so overwhelming. Still today, I could not forget that voice.”

For example, one man in a nation hostile to Christianity says he heard a voice telling him, “Find Jesus, find the gospel.” He didn’t know what Jesus was—a chair, a tree, an animal? But the voice told him exactly what city and house to go to, so he traveled for two weeks, arriving directly at the door of one of only three believers in the city.

Why Revival is Exploding Among Muslims

I had a real encounter with an evil spirit once; and only He could save me from the evil grip. You see, one of the rooms in our house had been known to have an evil spirit occupant. Many including my brothers and aunt had seen the spirit in the dark form of an ugly man. I was not a true believer of evil spirits and stuff that they were talking about. I did, however, have a rather strange experience when I spent the night in that room.

One fateful night, it was quite different and that thing got hold of me entirely. My whole body was paralyzed and the only body parts that still worked were my eye balls and my mind. I thought then that I was in real trouble this time. The feeling was awful and I was in the dark void completely.

In desperation, I called out bismillah imanirohim (from the Islamic religion) and then tried to recite omitoufut (from the Buddhism religion), but none of them worked. Finally, I cried out “Jesus, please help me!” and instantly I was freed and I made a quick dash out of that room. My parents sold that house a few years later.

Muslim encounter with Jesus

Khalil was a sholar who was asked to research the Bible, so he could convince others about its fault. (he was forced to do the research, he didn't like to touch the bible.)

"A radical Islamic terrorist from Egypt changed from a murderous "Saul" to a forgiving "Paul" after Jesus Christ visited him in a soul-penetrating dream. This hater of both Christians and Jews set out to discredit the Bible, but instead, he was transformed when Jesus appeared to him and changed his heart."

"In a dream, he saw a man, who came to him and told him that he was the one for whom Khalil had been searching. Khalil didn’t know who the man was. The man told him to look in the Book (the Bible). Khalil said the Book and all his papers were lost, to which the man replied, “The book never gets lost. Get up and open your closet and you will find it. The rest of your papers will be returned to you by the end of the week.”

"Khalil woke up from the dream and opened his closet. His very own copy of the Bible was inside the closet on a shelf."

Muslim Encounters with Jesus

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Genesis1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens (sky or empty space) and the earth (matter that is formless). 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness.

If one can accept that formless sky and matter are not things, because they are without form.

Then we can see after creating the formless, the Light/Jesus Christ, who has a form was created by the Word of God. Exactly like he claims.

The subsequent acts of creation are the work of the Word/Light/Christ.

When John says in the beginning was the Word, this implies the Word has a beginning, which the Light/Christ in Genesis is shown to have a beginning.

But God the father has no beginning.

2 Timothy 9
For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time—to show us his grace through Christ Jesus.

This series of events also lines up nicely with the Big Bang theory.

Formless matter explodes into "Light", and from that explosion everthing else is created. This view is in alignment with both evolution and creationism.

This interpretation of events also aligns the OT and NT to the teaching found in the Quran.

Add - Jesus is the physical representation of God, and the creator of all formed things, except God himself who has no beginning. The Light/Christ is our God. Although, Jesus said that he only does what his father tells him. Although he was perfect, he said not to call him good.

Only his father, who created the Son/Jesus/Light should be considered good. Since whatever Christ is was a manifestation of the Word of God the Father.

Jesus didn't tell his disciples to worship him, he told them to worship the Father.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Jesus is not God. They are two separate entities, but Jesus is part of God.

a reply to: Isurrender73

the AV preserved words of God in one book for us who speak English says differently than your opinion. so let me shed some light on the subject for you. The AV word of God can define any word or phrase in it by its context and has a built in cross reference so we can see truths. I hope this helps your understanding.

[quote]Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

The light was called forth not created. The Light is the Son of God.

Without form and void as defined by the AV shows us that it was something already made and had to be made habital again. here is how we know the meaning of it

4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

the context of Jeremiah 4 is speaking of Jerusalem. So we see the meaning is of a place once inhabited and later without form and void.

The term beginning has different places. The beginning in Genesis 1 is after the beginning of Proverbs 8:21 and John 1:1-2

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

there is no 2 Timothy 9 so I assume you forgot the chapter which is chapter one.

2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

The world began in Genesis 1:3 when he established the first 24 hour day. Not the beginning when the word was with God before his physical manifestation as recorded in John 1 or the beginning of his ways as seen in Proverbs 8.

may Gods preserved words bless you abundantly.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Jesus is not God. They are two separate entities, but Jesus is part of God.

Jesus is the Word as seen in John 1 and he is God because the Bible declares him as such.

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Cleary the AV preserved word of God disagrees with your assumption that Jesus is not God. For in 1 John 5:7 the word of God declares they are one. Also in the Greek it means they are one.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You are free to believe whatever you like.

I prefer to believe that 1.6 billion Muslims follow a prophet and there are no contradictions in the three texts.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You also become One with your wife. So I think it's possible for them to be One in thought and action and still be two separate entities.

God is Love
Jesus is the Shepard.

The Shepherd takes us down the path towards Love. Love itself and the Shepard have 2 different roles. Love does not leave the sinner, but only those who obey the son find the Light.

a reply to: Isurrender73

believe what you like you and 1.6 billion Muslims are all going to hell because you do not believe Jesus Christ Died for their sins on the cross and paid the penalty of your sin which is death without any works added to his work.

a reply to: Isurrender73

Obey the son in what?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Isurrender73

believe what you like you and 1.6 billion Muslims are all going to hell because you do not believe Jesus Christ Died for their sins on the cross and paid the penalty of your sin which is death without any works added to his work.

And this is exactly why I reject what you believe. Thank you for being Christ Like.

a reply to: Entreri06

"They don't believe Jesus was the messiah'

According to the Qur’an, Jesus is indeed the Messiah (al-Maseeh). In the English translations, ”al-Maseeh” is sometimes translated as ”Christ” or ”Messiah”

Qur’an 3:45
Qur’an 4:157
Qur’an 4:171
Qur’an 4:172
Qur’an 5:17
Qur’an 5:72
Qur’an 5:75
Qur’an 9:30
Qur’an 9:31

originally posted by: Belcastro
a reply to: Belcastro

im very interested in reading the Quran for myself from front to back like i have done with the bible.
but i dont know where to find one other than online and thats too much text to read on a computer.

If you want to get one for free, internet search the nearest mosque in your area and ask one of the Muslims there for one. Nowadays, nearly all commercial bookstores sell copies of the Qur'an in their "Religion" section. You can also buy one online at Amazon, eBay, or a multitude of online book retailers.

a reply to: Isurrender73

My point is not based on my opinion but on the word of God as preserved in the AV Holy Scriptures.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

you opinion on Christ likeness is based on human flesh. Christ refuted and rebuked the Pharisees because of their teaching false doctrine to Israel. so likewise I to you so I am more like Christ than you want to admit.

You still did not answer my question as to what we are to obey the son in?

originally posted by: infolurker
a reply to: Belcastro

You would have to ask a devout Muslim but I am pretty damned sure they do not believe Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son Of God sent to die for our sins as the Redeemer of Mankind (those who believe shall not perish but have everlasting life, the only way to the Father is through the Son) and is above all prophets and men (including Mohamed, Moses, Adam, and any Mahdi).

I've asked Muslims what the deal with Jesus is and they say this;

He did not die upon the cross - I've had very different answers as to who did and what happened next. I've hear things from he got down and ran away to God put another person there in Jesus' place. Therefore there was no resurrection and Jesus is not the Christ the Jews were waiting for in the opinion of Islam.

Interestingly enough though, they do believe that Jesus will return, along with Mohammed of course.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Jesus is not God. They are two separate entities, but Jesus is part of God.

Ahh yes, the trinity - something a Muslim cannot understand. The easiest way to describe it is it's like an egg - three distinct parts in the shell, the yolk and the white that make up a whole.

originally posted by: Belcastro
a reply to: Entreri06

i was reading a documentary that said they do believe he is the messiah, but i know that they dont believe he is the son of god.

It's very confusing (because they stole all their material from Judaism/Christianity), but they do believe He is the Messiah, but not God (as that would make Him greater than Muhammad)

It gets more confusing when the Quran says you have to believe in Muhammad for your sins to be forgiven. (much like Jesus)

Muhammad 47: 2; – God will bring to nothing the deeds of those who disbelieve and debar others from His path. As for the faithful who do good works and believe in what has beeen revealed to Muhammad – which is the Truth form their Lord – He will forgive them their sins and ennoble their state.