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Does Christianity command believers to follow Satan?

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posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 09:30 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66

originally posted by: arpgme
a reply to: ketsuko



So to say that Paul never met Him alive isn't quite accurate unless you are every single person today who has experienced a manifestation of Him in their life a liar.


Spirits know how to manifest to people, so no, that wouldn't mean he is alive nor would it mean they are liars.


Not to mention, you know, schizophrenia and drug hallucinations.


Or just outright charlatans... ie Paul.




posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 09:37 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Someone has mentioned that a couple of times in this discussion.

The really odd thing that both Jesus and Paul also share, is the fact that they were both unmarried in a culture that placed a HIGH PREMIUM on marriage and child-rearing particularly among its rabbis (and Saul/Paul was a Pharisee, one of the strictest cults.)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 09:48 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Yeah that is quite the similarity...
Although I'd be willing to accept that at the time, although less common, probably not something frowned upon in extreme ways.

The thing about Paul, is the many contradictory things he scribed.

When you look into Paul, he seems antithetical to Jesus' teachings.

I like Enlightened1s Paul threads, they are pretty logical and eye opening.



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 09:52 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

Your logic is HIGHLY FLAWED.



8Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”




16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and FOR HIM.
Colossians 1:16




You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for HE IS A LIAR and the FATHER OF LIES. - John 8-44


Everthing was created FOR JESUS AND BELONGS TO JESUS. Satan was lying, because he is a liar. The kingdoms of the earth never belonged to him. Jesus I am sure knew this since the kingdoms already belonged to Jesus.

You have fallen for Satan's lie. The world never belonged to Satan, and Jesus himself is YHWH, the creator of the serpent, Satan.

In reality the hierarchy in the bible looks like this.

God the Father.
Jeus Christ the son
Man/Woman
Angels of Light, obedient to Christ
Satan/Demons

Satan is only a liar with no power, since he is placed at the bottom of the food chain. We already possess more than Satan if we follow the Spirit of Love and Reason.

Am I the only one who understands this? The Demon/Satan worshippers are all destroyed when Jesus comes back to claim what was always his.


edit on 25-7-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:08 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

These are your religious beliefs, not anything even remotely a "logical" critique of OPs comments.

Also, just out of curiosity, would you please cite the biblical reference for the medieval "Great Chain of Being" that you've co-opted?



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:16 AM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Isurrender73

These are your religious beliefs, not anything even remotely a "logical" critique of OPs comments.

Also, just out of curiosity, would you please cite the biblical reference for the medieval "Great Chain of Being" that you've co-opted?



1. Jesus said God is my father.

2. Jesus is the Lord and YWHW is the Lord, his son. All things were made by Jesus, including Satan.

3. In the Koran Satan/Iblis and the other angles are told to bow to man.

4. The angels defeat Satan and cast him out of heaven.

5. This leaves Satan at the bottom of the food chain.

I am not using my imagination, I am clearly explaining what the religious texts say. These are not merely my beliefs, but what the texts ACTUALLY SAY.

I don't care if you believe me, but I know what the texts say. You can Google each one of the things I listed for yourself, if you would also like to understand what the texts clearly say.

I am not sure how explaining what a few books actually say makes me illogical.


edit on 25-7-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:21 AM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73

originally posted by: Gryphon66
a reply to: Isurrender73

These are your religious beliefs, not anything even remotely a "logical" critique of OPs comments.

Also, just out of curiosity, would you please cite the biblical reference for the medieval "Great Chain of Being" that you've co-opted?



1. Jesus said God is my father.

2. Jesus is the Lord and YWHW is the Lord, his son. All things were made by Jesus, including Satan.

3. In the Koran Satan/Iblis and the other angles are told to bow to man.

4. The angels defeat Satan and cast him out of beaven.

5. This leaves Satan atthe bottom ofthe food chain.

I am not using my imagination, I am clearly explaining whay the religious texts say.

I don't care if you believe me, but I know what the texts say. You can Google each one of the things I listed for yourself, if you would also like to understand what the texts clearly say.


Numbered statements do not create logical analysis.

Much of what you've stated here isn't even found in the bible. It is medieval angelology with a little garden-variety Muslim hocus-pocus sifted in.

If you believe that most of this is in "the bible," you're simply mistaken.

Here's my point in a nutshell, and I'm done with you: you offered a "logical" critique of the OP in your comment, then proceeded to list your religious beliefs. You've done that again with a numbered list, as if that would make it more logical.

The OP is about a textual relationship/anomaly between the characters Jesus and Satan. It is not about what you believe.

Best.
edit on 10Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:23:02 -050015p102015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:28 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Which one of the 5 things I listed, and what part of Paul saying that everything was created by Jesus and for Jesus do you believe is not supported by the scriptures.

You are ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY, because I am explaining what the texts clearly say. Why do you need to ATTACK ME?

I am not trying to convert you, I was only trying to tell the OP what the texts say. Satan never had ownership of the earth. It's not that complicated.
edit on 25-7-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:35 AM
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originally posted by: Isurrender73
a reply to: Gryphon66

Which one of the 5 things I listed, and what part of Paul saying that everything was created by Jesus and for Jesus, do you believe is not supported by the scriptures.

You are ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY, because I am explaining what the texts clearly say. Why do you need to ATTACK ME?

I am not trying to convert you, I was only trying to tell the OP what the texts say. Satan never had ownership of the earth. It's not that complicated.


/sigh

There is no personal attack against you in anything I've written. If you feel there is, please alert my posts to the mods.

#3 and #5 are certainly not "in the bible." That's 40% of what you wrote. #2 is a paraphrase. #4 is medieval church doctrine.

That's 80% of what you wrote.

Now, see that's a logical treatment of an argument. At no point did I state my personal beliefs that the bible and all scriptures are pure mythology that is backed up by nothing barring blind belief.

If I had refuted your "argument" with my beliefs, I would be doing the same thing that you are doing in regard to the OP, rather than addressing your claims and offering counter evidence.

Your beliefs are not facts, and they have nothing to do with the anomaly pointed out in the OP.


edit on 10Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:36:33 -050015p102015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:40 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

You say this world was created by Jesus for Jesus? Well, Jesus has rejected this world.


John 18:36: “Jesus answered, "My Kingdom is not an earthly kingdom. If it were, my followers would fight to keep me from being handed over to the Jewish leaders. But my Kingdom is not of this world."”


It seems that, if the world didn't belong to Satan in first place, then Jesus/God "gave it over" to him, and he, Satan, clearly claimed that ownership without any argument from Jesus.



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: windword

You just don't have the correct X-ray Glasses and Secret Decoder Ring to properly interpret the scriptures, Windword.

Also, "context."

*looks smug*

On topic: I find that logic and reason make little dents in true belief. The OP points out a very glaring inconsistency between traditional Christian beliefs and two parts of "god's word" that are to be taken literally as written, except, when we shouldn't.

And that occult knowledge is only available, if you read the press releases, to the initiated. SSDD.


edit on 10Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:47:55 -050015p102015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)

edit on 10Sat, 25 Jul 2015 10:49:56 -050015p102015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 10:47 AM
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From my point of view Yeshua speak like a blessed one. Buddha, Nanak and Rumi are examples of others blessed ones. Blessed ones have a tendency from my point of view, to not need any lords above them or slaves beneath them in a power pyramid scheme (the nature of the dark ones being) but can take objective information from everywhere it comes and use it to benefit all beings.

Paul wanting us to call Yeshua lord proves to me he is creating an Idol in his image. Muhammad made the same thing by saying he was a slave who at the same time talked for a god (Allah) that makes him the god proxy commending other souls to do as he say.
edit on 25-7-2015 by LittleByLittle because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 11:01 AM
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a reply to: LittleByLittle

That's a sweet ecumenical claim ... but how do you see that relating to OPs contention that the Christian bible instructs to obey Satan as the "ruler of this world"?



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 11:09 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

PS: A slightly more logical train of attack on the OP would be to suggest that, with his resurrection, Jesus overcame the Devil and overthrew his rulership of the world vis a vis Revelations Chapter 1:



14 The hair on his head was white like wool, as white as snow, and his eyes were like blazing fire. 15 His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace, and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, and coming out of his mouth was a sharp, double-edged sword. His face was like the sun shining in all its brilliance.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. 18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hell.


Holding the keys of death and Hell recognizes the conquest of Satan's "kingdom" described in the OP passage from Matthew.

Although ... I will admit ... this physical description of the ascended Jesus does make him sound a bit like an Islamic Jinn (Muslim "angels" are beings composed of fire).
edit on 11Sat, 25 Jul 2015 11:10:45 -050015p112015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 11:21 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

The commandments are specific enough, why would following
Satan be one of them? Short answer, negative.



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: randyvs

Which Commandments?



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 11:38 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

Interesting find. He first mentions paying tribute (piety, righteousness, etc) to God, and then likens it to paying taxes on the material level. This verse is quite relevant:

"Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldn’t we?”

But Jesus knew their hypocrisy. “Why are you trying to trap me?” he asked. “Bring me a denarius and let me look at it.” 16 They brought the coin, and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”

“Caesar’s,” they replied.

Then Jesus said to them, “Give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s and to God what is God’s.” Mark 12:14-17



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 12:22 PM
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originally posted by: Profusion
A logical argument can be made that Christianity commands believers to follow Satan by combining Matthew 4 and Romans 13.

In Matthew 4 verse 9 in my opinion it states clearly that Satan was in control of "all the kingdoms of the world." You have to use a little logic to deduce that. To me it's obvious, Satan could only give something away that he was in control of.


If you had proof that Satan always tells the truth or is at least telling the truth this one time in Matthew 4:9, I could make the same conclusion. But he isn't according to John 8:44


King James Version (KJV)
John 8
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



originally posted by: Profusion
My argument is simple, according to the Bible:

Satan is in control of "all the kingdoms of the world."

Romans 13 commands Christians to "be subject to the governing authorities."

Therefore, Christianity commands believers to follow Satan.

I believe that's perfect logic. Am I missing something?


My argument to your logic is also from the Bible which proves Satan is a liar and in fact he has no truth in him. Satan will do what ever it takes to corrupt man and the world.



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: ABissell


6 When the day came for the heavenly beings to appear before the Lord, Satan was there among them. 7 The Lord asked him, “What have you been doing?”

Satan answered, “I have been walking here and there, roaming around the earth.”

8 “Did you notice my servant Job?” the Lord asked. “There is no one on earth as faithful and good as he is. He worships me and is careful not to do anything evil.”

9 Satan replied, “Would Job worship you if he got nothing out of it? 10 You have always protected him and his family and everything he owns. You bless everything he does, and you have given him enough cattle to fill the whole country. 11 But now suppose you take away everything he has—he will curse you to your face!”

12 “All right,” the Lord said to Satan, “everything he has is in your power, but you must not hurt Job himself.” So Satan left.


Satan may have been wrong when he waged God that Job would curse God, but he didn't lie in the Job story.


edit on 25-7-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 01:06 PM
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a reply to: windword

Your right!


My opinion is Satan lies to deceive man to disobey God. In this he is speaking to God and knows there is no point to lie or deceive God. Yes, this is just my opinion.



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