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Is nlp or hypnosis magic?

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posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 07:58 PM
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Hypnosis is not magic. It is understood and explainable. The demonstration of any advanced understanding looks like magic to those who have not yet achieved that level of understanding.




posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 09:24 PM
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a reply to: The GUT


Now a question: As a practitioner do you believe you access or interact with something basically preternatural? Or maybe a Jungian-esque frame work/philosophy?

Hmmmm. What many would consider preternatural, I often consider natural, but latent. If that makes sense to you.

As to Jung. I guess it would depend on where one believes the "collective unconscious", in relation to archetypes(and beyond), truly resides. Is it natural or supranatural? Is it strictly biological, or is there a metaphysical aspect? Is it brain(dna?) or mind? Is there a difference? I'm not trying to convolute the question, but I do "grapple" with this specifically. The conscious and subconscious are two very different creatures, yet they are inseparable, and integral to the whole.

These questions and more come to mind, when considering just how NLP and hypnosis are supposed to work, and the different levels they can work at. Both bypass the conscious, to speak directly to the subconscious. Or do they? This is where the question begins to arise. Are the brain and the mind, one and the same? Ok. I'm rambling, and way off where I was going...

In short. Hypnosis and NLP are much more conducive to the Jungian "Explication, Amplification, and Active imagination(among others), than they are to Freud's more stringent(and narrow) method of analysis. Speaking of which. If you haven't heard of Milton Erickson, you should read up on him. Milton was a master hypno-therapist, and understood NLP long before the term was coined by Richard Bandler and John Grinder. Oh, how I would love to know what this man seemed to innately understand.

Glad to see you posting again. Maybe your ears were burning? I was just talking about you in reference to Jacques Vallee to someone (in real life) recently. That conversation didn't get very far. Talk about convoluted. Lol.


edit on 7/24/2015 by Klassified because: eta



posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 11:28 PM
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a reply to: Klassified

If we're talking Magic(k) with a capital "M" then we're generally looking at historic occult esoterica. No matter the particular syncretic mix, when we're talking the "real thing" then we are talking altered states among other commonalities.

Erickson is fascinating and pivotal in seeking where our modern understanding might be, but altered states and hypnotism go way back and are, as we know, associated with ritual magic and priesthoods. Hypnotism a little hard to trace, but there's good evidence for ancient Egypt. Then we have trance and self-hypnotism!! The relationship, too, between trance and hypnotism extremely close and sometimes intertwined.

And then there's, um…communication. Contact. LAM-ville. (Are you going there, Klass?) Daemons, Elementals, Spirit Guides…Whether the elementals be other intelligences or bugaboos and avatars of our own bisected, occluded-consciousness--that is to say the mysterious thing we call the subconscious--becomes moot for the moment as we realize whatever "magic(k)" is, some form of hypnosis has pretty much always been associated with it, eh?



edit on 24-7-2015 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 12:31 AM
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a reply to: The GUT

In the Indian Rope trick, the audience sees body parts falling from the top of the rope. The movie Camera sees nothing like that. The operational reality of the audience has been changed in a fundamental way, because they all believe what they have seen. So has the audience been hypnotised, to comprehend an alternative reality.? If they have then it means that their is something going on in the suggestive state that can affect a whole group of people, and not just one on one as in a hypnotic session.



posted on Jul, 25 2015 @ 07:35 PM
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a reply to: The GUT


If we're talking Magic(k) with a capital "M" then we're generally looking at historic occult esoterica. No matter the particular syncretic mix, when we're talking the "real thing" then we are talking altered states among other commonalities.

Agreed. At least from Crowley's definition. But the average person, thinks of magic as tricks and illusion that make it seem something impossible just happened. Like making the empire state building disappear. This is the context in which I said "No". They are not magic. They are psychological tools to effect desired change in the brain. However, from a more esoteric and metaphysical perspective. Sure. I don't disagree with what you're saying overrall. (Though I don't recommend trying certain aspects at home, unless one has an idea of what they're doing.)


Erickson is fascinating and pivotal in seeking where our modern understanding might be, but altered states and hypnotism go way back and are, as we know, associated with ritual magic and priesthoods. Hypnotism a little hard to trace, but there's good evidence for ancient Egypt. Then we have trance and self-hypnotism!! The relationship, too, between trance and hypnotism extremely close and sometimes intertwined.

If we are correct at how the Egyptian priesthood used altered states, and how they induced them in tuned enclosures(domes). Well, it's fascinating. I'm sure it goes back further, though. Trance(shamans), hypnosis, meditation, and prayer, are all related. In most cases, the only difference is the level of altered state desired. Though even that isn't set in stone.


And then there's, um…communication. Contact. LAM-ville. (Are you going there, Klass?) Daemons, Elementals, Spirit Guides…Whether the elementals be other intelligences or bugaboos and avatars of our own bisected, occluded-consciousness--that is to say the mysterious thing we call the subconscious--becomes moot for the moment as we realize whatever "magic(k)" is, some form of hypnosis has pretty much always been associated with it, eh?

Lets just say I've had some interesting experiences. Personally, I don't believe in angels, demons, spirirt guides, or elementals, as such. I tend to lean Jungian in that regard, though some of my personal experiences convince me there is more than this dimension to life. For the most part, however, most peoples angels, demons, and so on, are an internal product, rather than external force, unless one wants to get into a discussion that goes far beyond the scope of this thread.

Here again though, "magick" conjures up imaginations, that become totally de-mystified once a person understands the mechanics of hypnosis and nlp on a practical and clinical level. If one wants to go beyond that, the journey is an inward one, and is more akin to Luke Skywalker entering the cave on dagobah. If one has not faced themselves, nothing good will come of going any further.

I'm rambling again. This is a topic I have a hard time articulating from a keyboard. My mind goes in too many directions. Some day, I'm going to drive to your neck of the woods, and it's going to be an all day/night discussion. Be prepared.
I'm buying all three meals. Lol.

edit on 7/25/2015 by Klassified because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 02:29 AM
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a reply to: Klassified

I didn't find it rambling. i mean, well…it is a rather complex subject that only grapples with--as a by-product--such light-fare subjects as consciousness and experiential existence haha. So some rambling is expected. The prevarication, though...


Jung tried to play it off publicly/professionally, but it seems he tended to believe there were other intelligences. Maybe even life after death if I recall? I think the journalism was good on where I got that, but I would need to check it myself again personally before I used it as more than a talking point here. Plus I'm mad at google right now in addition to being lazy. Seems you also wonder at times as well, if I read you correctly? Hence my "prevarication" love tap heh. Crowley kind of flip-flopped like Jung--and you--too.


Not to say I don't pretty much agree with the subtleties of your observations and the complexity of trying to define such things. This is a very interesting topic that leads all sorts of places. I wish I had more time right now. There's only one more thread I have any interest in doing and it's largely about hypnosis with a good dose of black magic seeping through That's why I was attracted to this thread. Research and notes are mostly done and actually in a single folder. The organization stops there though. Ooooh it's a grand thread I tell ya', if only…



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 06:11 AM
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a reply to: GoldenSyrup

And if it's a dark magician mind controlling billions of people? Is that magic?



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 06:11 AM
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How come everyone's just a dabbler or lukewarm in this age? Such a strange thing. If Jung didn't believe in external beings infinite then his understanding was incomplete. Infinite worlds and infinite beings is axiomatic to all mystery teachings, if one wants to find this out there are very clear instructions, otherwise one may stick to scientific knowledge and the apparent.

If Jung was the true Chinese sage in earlier ages then he would have performed magic himself. He was probably a senior monk at the Shaolin monastery mastering his kung-fu and analysing the babes.


edit on 26-7-2015 by TheLaughingGod because: Double post I decided to fill out



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 06:23 AM
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a reply to: The GUT

Don't you find it interesting that one of the most proficient magicians of the 20th century would flip flop like that? What does that mark, when one of the greatest magicians of the age is insecure(?) in his craft? I mean Crowley wrote of turning himself invisible. That is blatant magic. Yet, just a couple of hundred years ago belief in magic saturated every aspect of most societies. And did supposedly happen according to untold stories, you couldn't throw a stone without hitting some demon in the ancient days. Why do you think that is?



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 07:48 AM
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a reply to: The GUT


Seems you also wonder at times as well, if I read you correctly? Hence my "prevarication" love tap heh. Crowley kind of flip-flopped like Jung--and you--too.

I question(wonder about) many things when it comes to "reality". There are instances in my life that make me question the very fabric of what we agree is, and is not. Flip-flop, or struggling to constitute what truly defines the parameters? I have a hard time seeing what I do as magic, or myself as a magician. When is it psychology, and when is it magic? Is it strictly perspective? Or is it always one or the other? Etc. etc. etc.


Not to say I don't pretty much agree with the subtleties of your observations and the complexity of trying to define such things. This is a very interesting topic that leads all sorts of places. I wish I had more time right now. There's only one more thread I have any interest in doing and it's largely about hypnosis with a good dose of black magic seeping through That's why I was attracted to this thread. Research and notes are mostly done and actually in a single folder. The organization stops there though. Ooooh it's a grand thread I tell ya', if only…

I'll be looking forward to that. Please u2u me if and when you post it. I'm not the sharpest tack in the bulletin board, but I'll try to narrow my rambling and stay on target. And remember..."All work and no play, make The Gut a dull boy."



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: TheLaughingGod
And if it's a dark magician mind controlling billions of people? Is that magic?

Magick 8-Ball Says: Yes. There really is something to many of the the symbols that surround us I would add to that. What we might call meme magic is interesting in this context too.


Don't you find it interesting that one of the most proficient magicians of the 20th century would flip flop like that? What does that mark, when one of the greatest magicians of the age is insecure(?) in his craft? I mean Crowley wrote of turning himself invisible. That is blatant magic. Yet, just a couple of hundred years ago belief in magic saturated every aspect of most societies. And did supposedly happen according to untold stories, you couldn't throw a stone without hitting some demon in the ancient days. Why do you think that is?


Proficient as a chaos mage maybe. Accidentally. Accidentally on purpose. One of those, I'm still mulling his context. A daring and foolish brain hacker for sure I'd say. A very creative brain hacker at that, I certainly give the devil his due. Hard to trust anything a skilled black mage says or writes for "posterity" however. I wouldn't doubt he was befuddled as he'd hacked his brain in so many ways he couldn't tell if the daemons were real or not. Real enough to create some misery and chaos in his life and those around him.

L. Ron Hubbard, imo, was--at least as far as black magic goes--much more adept and successful than Crowley. He sure knew a thing or two about hypnotism and compatible/related techniques. He kind of specialized in mind effing though, so it may not be a totally fair comparison. Both Hubbard and Crowley were great at creating their own myth. Which is another very powerful trick of the mage.

Manley Hall is a great shortcut and demystifies much of the indecipherable aspects of the ancient literature. I should've started there first.

I'm not a practitioner myself, but kind of a student of philosophies I guess. I've got to study some of it up close and personal, but generally as observer and not full participant. Although I did mess around and experienced a little more than I would have liked. Enough to tell my own self that there are some energies that defy our current understanding. That's just my opinion and utterly subjective I freely acknowledge. Those energies, whatever they might be, seem to me to generally be the one in control regardless of what the adept--or even channeler--seems to think. Over time, the more it shows.

Of course we're painting with broad strokes here, and esoteric arts vary widely and there certainly is no bible on the correct way to do magic. But the core is the submission and/or persuasion of mysterious forces in the attempt to suit one's will. It seems quite the sticky wicket. A tar baby. Stare into that abyss and stuffs start staring back.


edit on 26-7-2015 by The GUT because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 26 2015 @ 12:59 PM
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a reply to: gell1234

In my opinion, there are humans who have active associations with
'plasma lifeforms or call them Jinn if you must' from birth. Those
are the folks who are on the edge of having access to 'magic'
and that access just takes concentration, willpower and
imagination, which are aspects of hypnosis and nlp.

So some normal garden variety people can accidentally fall into
'magic' with something as 'harmless' as Tarot, Ouija,
hypnosis or nlp, etc.

To really approach 'true magic', you have to go down a very
dark road.. and it's a road of delusion, as the 'plasma
lifeforms' have an agenda, and that agenda is NOT to
let you cast spells on hot girls or turn invisible!

I don't normally discuss this topic, but as i'm nearing
100% boredom with the topic of UFOs, I'm starting to
think of writing on this topic.

I myself went in search of 'spirituality' when I was 4
or whatever it was, and fell down the rabbit hole
until I had learned far more than i cared to about
such subjects. I just wanted to find a loving big
daddy figure in the sky.. but unfortunately
for me I learned about reality instead. Well now
days it's neither fortunate nor unfortunate.. it's
all just physics.

Kev



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: The GUT

I haven't really delved into Manly P Hall yet but he is definitely on the list. He wrote that book at 23? I was always supremely impressed by that, felt like such a total failure in comparison, hah. Sometimes these personalities, they incarnate fully awakened like a golden child. Or they'll be born with abilities or acquire them. The novel factor in this age to state it poetically is that the winds of magic are weak. Lately they are stronger however. This is what the spirits say, whether lies or not.. I can feel their strength though. And I notice the changes too, in reality, and an unseen catalyst which nature is that of preparation. It is best to deal with all issues now rather than later, and to at least do some basic inner alchemy. Catharsis and skillful means.

As for Crowley and Hubbard.. perhaps Hubbard was more successful in the end but he was also a clown. Greater magician goes to Crowley in sheer proficiency and raw magical achievement. Wanna see some real magic though? The US was the magical project of Francis Bacon, New Atlantis was laying the magical groundwork for a new nation in the new world. Then a bunch of high adepts incarnated as the founders and various other personalities. This is how the hierarchy on this planet works and gets things done.. waves of high adepts incarnate for various projects, of all kinds. If I was older I'd know more, at this time I am only a neophyte.. you should've gotten to me when I was 60 in some other life.. then maybe I could've provided some real answers. Either way it's fun to research and think about.

Well, take it with a spoon of salt. That is the formal way when dealing with shifty spirits eh..



posted on Jul, 28 2015 @ 09:41 AM
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a reply to: TheLaughingGod
Yeah, I feel it too and it sometimes scares the ship out of me. I get over it, but an ill wind blows. Depending on one's perspective of course.

How do you generally commune?



posted on Jul, 29 2015 @ 02:27 AM
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a reply to: The GUT

I sent you a PM about that, I'm kind of cagey about talking about it.

These coming years are going to be really interesting.. got that last blood moon coming up now too, I wonder about that one.



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