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Drag Queens banned from Pride Parade in Scotland

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posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:23 PM
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a reply to: intrepid

Come through Comic Relief!!




posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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a reply to: Stormdancer777

This is the way you portrayed in in your initial contribution:


originally posted by: Stormdancer777
jewamongyou.wordpress.com...

The lesbian vs. transgender conflict

There was a great video on the subject I can't find it.


I'm glad you don't see this it this way.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:34 PM
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I just saw this thread and tried to catch up but every other post has been deleted. Must have been an ugly scene in here a while ago, eh?

I would imagine the disassociation that's desired is simply because of the cliche it perpetuates. Being "drag" isn't LGBT but plenty of LGBT enjoy drag and it's a shame the organizers can't distinguish that. I totally understand the need to distance myself as people often cite famous drag queens when transgender topics come up because they have been conditioned to think they are the same thing. It's the same reason that a "dude in a dress" image pops up for most people when they think of a transwoman.

Outright saying they are not welcome is just silly, though. A gay person is a gay person and should be welcome at a Pride event, no matter how they are dressed. We can't afford the karma that this sort of discrimination brings.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:37 PM
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originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: JadeStar

Personally I have no problem with them banning them if they had problems in the past with them. I do think it would probably be better for them to vett the performers and performances so they only had non-offensive drag queens present but since they often bring entourages of other people from their drag scene who would be offensive then maybe they decided to just ban them entirely?



Should this apply across the board to any parade?


If a municipal government endorses it then yes.


Personally I have more of an issue with the "Leather Bondage".


i agree.


Should public parades be completely G-rated as to not offend anyone?


weren't they at one time? maybe we need to get back to that? or maybe i just grew up in a conservative family and am a prude, idk.



What about Mardi Gras and Rio? (Those are most famous, but there are a lot more over-the-top parades and festivals in the world).


I think both are ok because if you are from New Orleans or Rio you grew up around those. And if you are travelling there for them then you know what to expect.


Should ALL acts be vetted?


No, just ones which have a history of doing offensive performances.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:40 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: Stormdancer777

Yes, because he has always been a Woman.. without understanding the science behind Transgender i can see why it might be confusing, but if Caitlyn has always been attracted to Woman than she would identify as Lesbian


Unlike Chaz Bono who is not.

Chaz Bono is a straight male, always has been, attracted to women.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: JadeStar


How about putting on black face paint and pretending to "be black"? They frequently have done this.

Or how about singling out identifiably transgender women in the audience and refer to them with male pronouns? They've done that.

Or how about trivializing or turning into comedy the medical/surgical treatment of some transgender people? They've done that too..


Those things would be offensive to just about EVERYONE, though.

Those things are just wrong. I had no idea.
Rude, offensive, and hateful.


You'd think so right?

But there are many who think that stuff should get a pass because: "duh, it's JUST a performance. don't take it too seriously!" same kinda next level b.s. we hear from certain comedians who use the t-word or make transgender people the punch line of their jokes (assuming no transgender people bought a ticket to see them).



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:43 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: introvert

Personally i don't think any of it would be Offensive outright.

Drag is not "Mocking" transgender people or Gender Identities. it's an expression of "Character"

for me personally it's a way for me to live and express my 'Feminine Self'


Thanks Darth. I enjoy learning from you.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:44 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

True, some people think that Transgender Woman and Drag Queens are the same if not similar, but i think now with more Trans issues becoming public and more Trans education becoming conversation people are starting to understand and define the differences, of course you are always going to have those people that are just ignorant no matter how much Knowledge is being given.

and that is why the Trans people that identify publicly as Trans are as important as those that don't want to be associated with that Label



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:45 PM
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a reply to: Annee

Exactly, i think many people confuse the Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity when it comes to Trans People



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:46 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

Likewise, for both of us being on the Younger side.. i think we do well in conversations!




posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: Cuervo

True, some people think that Transgender Woman and Drag Queens are the same if not similar, but i think now with more Trans issues becoming public and more Trans education becoming conversation people are starting to understand and define the differences, of course you are always going to have those people that are just ignorant no matter how much Knowledge is being given.

and that is why the Trans people that identify publicly as Trans are as important as those that don't want to be associated with that Label




Yeah, I knew this DJ at a bar who was a transvestite. This dude was straight as could be (married with kids, even) and lamented about the assumptions people made about him. People assumed he was either gay or transgendered. He didn't even identify with the LGBT community but would have if he were gay.

I think back and totally feel his pain but from the opposite side.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:53 PM
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As someone who has never particularly followed drag, as I figured out quite a while ago that I don't really have much in common with them despite what outside observation may erroneously think. So I can't really comment on drag a whole lot. Nevertheless, this really looks like a lot of fall-out from Ru(de) Paul and his ilk, the drag queens that tend to cross the line from friendly satire to outright nastiness.

So it's quite understandable how many in the transgendered community can be offended by such performances, especially when some can be outright mockeries of our lives. We're forever plagued by the ongoing stereotype of being "dudes in dresses" and it's frustrating. Deeply frustrating. Many drag queens are homosexual cis-men who have no real understanding of what transgendered women go through, so the danger of crossing a line is very real.

Do I think a blanket ban is appropriate? Not really. I agree with Jade that vetting performances in advance would be a better tactic. A ban should only really apply to performers who have a long history of insensitivity and offensive material. You're trying to entertain a pride event, after all, not start a riot.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:58 PM
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a reply to: Cuervo

Exactly, people make assumptions out of ignorance, but also because subjects are Taboo and not talked about enough



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:03 PM
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originally posted by: Gryphon66
I've been to a few drag show in Atlanta, since the mid 1980s.

One of the last ones I went to (about 8 years ago) was hosted by Miss Charlie Brown, a Southern fixture in the scene and the same person that was influential in RuPaul's early career.

Charlie loves to mess with "straight" people in the audience. He was picking on me for about 3 or 4 minutes, because he didn't believe I was gay, and he did so with very overt and profane questions. I am used to such things happening, but, there are times when some performers take it over the top in the "abuse" part of the program.



^^^^^ THIS.

This is what I am trying to say.

Look. Someday I hope to be a mom. (i know right?)

Because of how I was born I can't have children myself. So my long time boyfriend (high school sweetheart) and I have talked about adoption.

Ideally, I would love to adopt a transgender child because a) these children are hard to place and b) who better to raise a transgender child than a mom who knows some of what they might go through?

Let's say that happens in the future and I am the mom of a 13 year old transgender daughter who begged me to take her to the Seattle pride festival or parade only to go there and potentially have her encounter that type of drag performer who idk, for some reason chose to single her out and abuse her because she is straight and cis-normative?

That would be just as hurtful to her as being singled out for verbal abuse by someone for being transgender.



I can see that some people would be hurt by that kind of attention. Just like going to some comedy shows, I know to expect it.


Yeah but these events are supposed to be an all-inclusive a refuge from that kind of abuse. It's no less hurtful if the abuse is aimed at straight and cis-normative.

If one part of the community is abusing another then that part of the community has to be dealt with. It doesn't matter who is doing the abuse not who the target of the abuse is.


As I said, I'm more than a bit confused myself by all the fine distinctions being made these days. I look forward to a time when none of them are necessary and people are treated fairly and equitably regardless of any "differences" they may have.


Someday we will all just be humans, transhumans and sentient AI.... Uh oh, divisions again... throw in extraterrestrials and you have the makings of all the same fears, misunderstandings, hatreds and bigotry.
edit on 23-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:07 PM
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a reply to: Kojiro

I know many of the Queens that have been on Rupauls Drag Race, and i can't think of one who have crossed the line into 'Nastiness" nor can i think of any of the Local Queens who have or other Queens in the clubs and Shows i've been at.

i can completely understand the frustration of the ignorance people have of the "Dude in a Dress label"

i can't think of a performance that Mocks the lives of Trans People, Drag is different and personal to each person who does it, but it's not to "mock" the lives of Trans Woman. there are some Trans Woman who still perform as Drag Queens*

Yes many are Gay Cisgender Men who don't know what it means to be Trans, the same as some Trans people don't understand what it means to be Gay, and some Gay people don't know what it means to be Bisexual and Lesbians Etc but it's not their fault for being Born Cisgender, just as it's not anyone's fault for Being Born Trans, we can't pick how we are born



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:10 PM
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originally posted by: Stormdancer777
jewamongyou.wordpress.com...

The lesbian vs. transgender conflict

There was a great video on the subject I can't find it.



Latte Island has a series of posts about ongoing clashes between transgender activists and lesbian activists. There’s even a video showing a confrontation between the groups during a march.

In the video, lesbian activist Cathy Brennan can be heard telling a gender-modified man that he is “not a woman”. Here are her own words explaining her position regarding men pretending to be women:


That whole spew in that excerpt is some of the most hateful anti-trans language i've seen written on ATS.

And the LGBTIQ+ crowd wonder why Ekron or I do not attend such events or become part of "the community".... We never were and with friends like that who needs enemies?

I will say that if I were bisexual i'd rather take my chances stealth dating a straight guy than a lesbian woman. I would be way more afraid the lesbian would kill me.
edit on 23-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:11 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

So you only think that a Drag Performer would single out a hypothetical 13 Girl and Verbally assault her for being Trans?

that is assuming not only the worst of people but also assuming that Drag Queens are incapable of understanding trans Issues

How would that hypothetical 13 year old feel if Trans People were Banned from pride if they identify as "Cis-Normative'?



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:11 PM
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a reply to: Darth_Prime

As I said, I don't really follow the performance art. All I can comment on is what I've heard on the grapevine in social media and it can be pretty appalling.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:16 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: JadeStar

So you only think that a Drag Performer would single out a hypothetical 13 Girl and Verbally assault her for being Trans?


It wouldn't be the first time it's happened.



that is assuming not only the worst of people but also assuming that Drag Queens are incapable of understanding trans Issues


I am trying my best not to paint with a broad brush but just because SOME understand does not mean ALL understand. There are socio-economic/cultural factors which often impact the drag performer's level of education surrounding issues of gender identity, so what harm they might do, they don't mean usually. Or they may be just a straight up anti-trans bigot (which are rare in that community). Either way the harm is done. Often with people clapping or laughing.

And just because some do not understand does not mean I feel all drag performers should be banned from the pride events and parades. I do however think that ones which ARE offensive and have a history of being offensive SHOULD be banned.

To be honest the drag community should police itself better then things like the story in the OP wouldn't happen.



How would that hypothetical 13 year old feel if Trans People were Banned from pride if they identify as "Cis-Normative'?


If she is anything like me she'd just shake her head and instead, ask to go to a concert with her cis and/or cis-normative, straight friends.
edit on 23-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 09:17 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: JadeStar


How about putting on black face paint and pretending to "be black"? They frequently have done this.

Or how about singling out identifiably transgender women in the audience and refer to them with male pronouns? They've done that.

Or how about trivializing or turning into comedy the medical/surgical treatment of some transgender people? They've done that too..


Those things would be offensive to just about EVERYONE, though.

Those things are just wrong. I had no idea.
Rude, offensive, and hateful.


You'd think so right?

But there are many who think that stuff should get a pass because: "duh, it's JUST a performance. don't take it too seriously!" same kinda next level b.s. we hear from certain comedians who use the t-word or make transgender people the punch line of their jokes (assuming no transgender people bought a ticket to see them).


Do you want to be treated equally, or not?

Every group is mocked. So jokes about any other group are fine, but since you take hormones and got some surgery you somehow deserve immunity? Because you might get your feelings hurt?

The transgender group on ATS is very disturbing I'm begging people with common sense to read this thread, it's scary. According to what I've seen recently these transgender people (who have their bodies altered surgically to appear as the sex they identify with mentally, and take hormone therapy so they can appear more like the gender they identify with) consider themselves the same as cisgendered people (normal people, you're a guy or gal in your head and your private parts match from birth means you're cisgendered) since they feel no obligation to inform potential sex partners that they were born the opposite sex, but now get upset if someone makes fun of a group that they don't even identify with. A number of transgender individuals on ATS don't consider themselves transgender (they're just whatever gender they are in their head, and any body modification is the same as removing a wart), and think it perfectly acceptable to never tell anyone, even potential love interests, sexual partners and in one instance, even in the unlikely event they were going to marry (just thought it important to inform the potential person they couldn't have kids, not that they had their penis and scrotum turned into a vagina).

Drag queens are doing a little performance piece, and making fun of everyone. You don't go to a comedy show, sit in the front row and expect not to be made fun of for something. It's supposed to be fun, and drag queens enjoy being caricatures, absurd representations that make off color jokes. The only group you'll see screaming discrimination is going to be transgender people, because they scream that no matter what. Try to treat them the same, you forgot they were transgender and deserve preferential treatment to counter all the alleged privileges anyone but their own group receives. They are the ones that deserve all privilege, because they are different.

Now, to conclude this I want to say that I think transgender people deserve the exact same respect as the rest of us. What I'm talking about is a crappy subset of transgender people. They're the new age feminists of gender identity. Most reasonable people can agree that a transgender person, a woman, a man, and really anyone that isn't trying to control thinking and just live their own lives without unwarranted disrespect should be treated the same. The transgender people complaining about drag queens are the same people that only care about trans* rights, and crap on everyone that doesn't bow down out of some sort of absurd self inflicted guilt.




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