Drag Queens banned from Pride Parade in Scotland

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Now, what i have said in the past is that you are certain that you would not be attracted to a Trans Woman, if we replaced that with "i'll never be attracted to a Black Woman" does that sound Racist?

Totally have been attracted to someone that I'm now aware was trans, lost the amorous feelings after finding out. I'm also not into women that have breast augmentation. They can be wildly attractive, including the breasts, but it just ruins it for me. Honestly never being attracted to a certain race doesn't sound inherently racist to me, there are a few races that I'm rarely into. I still think many people are beautiful, I have no problem saying a guy is handsome, I'm just not sexually attracted at the same time.

Maybe you would be Attracted to a fully transitioned Trans Woman and never know she was Trans, maybe fall in love.. hypothetically

Don't doubt that's a possibility. I still wouldn't think it was OK to not be informed though. I'm not of the opinion that what I don't know can't be hurtful.

It's such a weird topic, because there aren't many comparisons or similar situations. I will say that I firmly believe that anyone who is going to sleep with someone or pursue them romantically should share the information because as I've been saying the other person may be completely ignorant (despite ATS not actually seeming to often understand the word, you clearly do) that if they have a problem there's a chance they won't know. Since the Trans* person has the advantage of knowing this from the get go, and also that they are different, they have all the privilege of choice while the other person through no fault of there own does not.

I really appreciate you taking the time to respond. It was amusing that you not so subtly completely avoided the question of ignorance, it's OK if you think I am. I got a good laugh either way.

I hope you have a wonderful night, and again thanks. I think you're doing a wonderful service to EVERYONE what with taking the time to explain and educate.

a reply to: Cuervo

I think you are insensitive, not bigoted.

Agreed. I come across rather poorly online too. I'm not well written, and in real life have a rather expressive face. It's like e-spergers. I think it's also very hard to have grown up with certain ideas and influences (I want to say that my parents were always very accepting and loving toward everyone, my Mom still is, my Father passed away a few years ago but always was - don't know how that's germane but if anyone thinks I'm a dick don't blame them, they tried). After having this conversation with you I will try to be more empathetic and maybe even attempt to edit things before they spew out. Hey, I don't use the "t" word anymore, so I am capable of learning and change apparently.

What many late-in-life transitioning people won't tell you is that, during their years of suppression, a common way to cope is to act in the same manner that most others do in regards to transgender people. For the transladies, it served as a handy male-affirming go-to when the dysphoria started to pop up. Just like monster trucks and the military. Many of us just have short memories. Even during those years, I considered myself an "ally" to the LGBT movement but, in retrospect, I had a lot of toxic words come out of my mouth that would pain me today to hear with my ears.

I hope you're not beating yourself up over it still, you learned, I'm sure you've punished yourself enough. It must be painful to remember that kind of thing, especially knowing very intimately now what you were doing and just how deep it hurts someone in your position. Some of my most shameful memories are of being intolerant in one way or another. So, kind of like overcompensating yeah? That makes sense. I think we all do that to some extent when we feel insecure.

So I think I remember saying something in a thread you were in that was rather nasty. I remember feeling like crap about it for a few days, not sure if I sent you a message apologizing. I believe this was at a time where I was having some substance abuse issues and had a high amount of stress, but of course that doesn't excuse it. I just want to let you know I was very impressed with you coming out to ATS and in real life, and can't imagine how hard that was. It took a lot of bravery and character. I was also so happy to learn your wife wasn't dialed in too far on one side of the spectrum! You're not the same person to me anymore. You're even better, because now you're able to fully accept yourself.

a reply to: JadeStar

And if that scenario scared him what would that make him?

5'11", blonde, blue eyed, devastatingly handsome and into cisgender straight women.

I fail to see how wanting to be in a relationship with someone that's cisgender makes me a bad person or transphobic/homophobic/hydrophobic. I'm not scared of it, I just don't prefer it. Doesn't make it wrong or bad, I'm just not into it. Honestly it's my loss, and I've said a number of times that being bisexual would be pretty awesome, but I like what I like and I'm not going to change that because it makes someone feel insecure. I shouldn't have to. Next you're going to bagging on me because I only like mint chocolate chip ice cream.

I think you're a badass woman, you're clearly smart, you clearly stand up for yourself, and I think your work in astronomy is freaking awesome! I get the impression you believe I dislike you because of your story, and nothing could be further from the truth. I think the hardship you've gone through has made you stronger and more self aware, and I think you're going to go on to do awesome things. I remember when you first joined I internet yelled at someone for implying that having a picture of yourself as your avatar was obnoxious. We may disagree on one point, but I still respect you and hope the best for you. You live in WA right? We're probably both burned to a crisp from Sunday because we forgot sunscreen is a thing.

a reply to: Domo1

Oh, no sorry i wasn't avoiding it, you clearly are not ignorant.. you at least have knowledge and awareness of the situations you are talking about

a reply to: Domo1

Thanks for the reply. I do remember the post you are talking about and that's how I know you've changed since then. As far as my own actions, I hope you know I don't speak for my entire demographic but it is based on some frequent anecdotal stories as well as my own experience.

I was never cruel or anti-anything but I would use poor phrasing choices and casually drop a few no-nos thinking I was funny. But you know what, it did make me feel like a "real man" for a second or two. How scary is that when you really consider what it means?

a reply to: Darth_Prime

I can't tell if I'm reading too much into things or you have this hysterical smart ass whit that's evident only by what you're NOT saying.

Either way Darth, if you're ever near Seattle I would love to buy you a beer, and I really mean that. You're good people. Intentional and probably poor taste.

Have you thought about doing a thread explaining what it is to be gender fluid? I think it would be absolutely fascinating to hear your story. You're incredibly good at explaining things and understanding others from what I've seen, and this is going back aways, not just recent threads.

a reply to: Cuervo

I hope you know I don't speak for my entire demographic but it is based on some frequent anecdotal stories as well as my own experience.

I get that.

I was never cruel or anti-anything but I would use poor phrasing choices and casually drop a few no-nos thinking I was funny. But you know what, it did make me feel like a "real man" for a second or two. How scary is that when you really consider what it means?

I've been cruel and nasty on purpose. It's something I've had to work on. I have excuses, but they are just that.

Took me a second to understand what you meant. That is scary. I do think that it's changing though, and while not fast enough it's going to snowball like Moore predicted with computers.

I gotta say I really regret that we both remember that post. For what it's worth I'll remember this and intend to work on the things I say.

Holy cow! I'm not even sure what else to say about all this?

From Kojiro:

So, transgendered people are ineligible for marriage? Since when? That would certainly be news to EKron.

Umm? Yeah. Probably would be news to my ex-husband I was married to for 11 years too.

From Darth_Prime:

The one thing i don't get is, the Trans People who don't want to associate with the GLBTQ+ community are the ones that are trying to decide what and what not can happen

Are you including me in this? As I said, I really don't care. I see what JadeStar's point is though but I think you'd have to be a complete a-hole to single out a young transperson. I've seen two drag shows in my entire life so what do I know anyway?

From Domo1:

The trans people that think they're cis are the most obnoxious and annoying group I've ever run across.

You know, you are a piece of work and there's little doubt who you are referring to or why. I've seen you make efforts and progress but I find you obnoxious and annoying as well a good part of the time and your homo/trans phobia thinly disguised. Do I think I'm cis or that there aren't things in my past that make me different? No, I'm a realist but cis-normative is how I've lived the vast majority of my life which is longer than you've even been alive so you have no business telling me what to think or how obnoxious and annoying you think I (we) are.

From JadeStar:

What do you think of people like Domo who would rather force all trans people to be potentially marginalized and discriminated against by demanding those of us who live cis-normative lives to disclose corrective medical procedures which people like Ekron and I put behind us years ago to even the most casual relationships (and therefore potentially to acquaintances, co-workers, landlord, neighbors, etc)?

Where does that even come from other than a place of transphobic fear?

Precisely and I have no plans for getting a big T tattooed on my forehead anytime soon.

From JadeStar:

Exactly which is why I said if I had to date again (i hope i never do) i do not think I would want to disclose to someone unless it was going to become more serious.

I'm not in the market for anything and not looking but stranger things have happened and do happen even for people my age but I'd have to know someone pretty damn well before bringing up things from 40 some years ago. I'm a complex and multi-faceted individual with far more interesting things to discuss before ever getting around to that.

Anybody watch the Cathy Brennan interview posted by Stormdancer777 back on page 8? Gawd, I'm glad not part of this scene with the alphabet community or trans-activism and radical lesbian feminism. Obliviousness to all this is indeed bliss and I'm glad the three normal lesbians in my family have never come at me with this crap. Maybe it's because they know who I am?

More moderate feminist views, sure. I worked 20+ years in the pink-collar ghetto for men and faced all the same discrimination, sexual harassment, subservience and misogynistic attitudes that no cis woman can say is different from their experience. I work in IT now where women are still treated differently than male counterparts since somehow I'm not supposed to know as much or have as much experience and don't command the same degree of respect in the good ol' boy network. I can be persuasive and assertive but it sucks if something I say or propose isn't taken seriously until a man says the same thing. Somebody tell me my life is different from natal women because of some corrective surgery I had when I was a kid and if anyone thinks I'm not part of cis-normative society or wonders why that's where I'm coming from had better think again.

From domo1:

According to what I've seen recently these transgender people (who have their bodies altered surgically to appear as the sex they identify with mentally, and take hormone therapy so they can appear more like the gender they identify with) consider themselves the same as cisgendered people (normal people, you're a guy or gal in your head and your private parts match from birth means you're cisgendered) since they feel no obligation to inform potential sex partners that they were born the opposite sex, but now get upset if someone makes fun of a group that they don't even identify with. A number of transgender individuals on ATS don't consider themselves transgender (they're just whatever gender they are in their head, and any body modification is the same as removing a wart), and think it perfectly acceptable to never tell anyone, even potential love interests,

I don't think neither Jade or I have said we wouldn't say something. Guys like you would be one reason not to though and you're far too hung up on surgery and the "from birth" bit. I've been physically female twice as long as I wasn't and again, longer than you've been alive so it hard to think of myself as anything else. I get it, Domo, you think we're creepy and that's fine. Your loss though.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: JadeStar

And if that scenario scared him what would that make him?

5'11", blonde, blue eyed, devastatingly handsome and into cisgender straight women.

I fail to see how wanting to be in a relationship with someone that's cisgender makes me a bad person or transphobic/homophobic/hydrophobic. I'm not scared of it, I just don't prefer it. Doesn't make it wrong or bad, I'm just not into it. Honestly it's my loss, and I've said a number of times that being bisexual would be pretty awesome, but I like what I like and I'm not going to change that because it makes someone feel insecure. I shouldn't have to. Next you're going to bagging on me because I only like mint chocolate chip ice cream.

I think you're a badass woman, you're clearly smart, you clearly stand up for yourself, and I think your work in astronomy is freaking awesome! I get the impression you believe I dislike you because of your story, and nothing could be further from the truth. I think the hardship you've gone through has made you stronger and more self aware, and I think you're going to go on to do awesome things. I remember when you first joined I internet yelled at someone for implying that having a picture of yourself as your avatar was obnoxious. We may disagree on one point, but I still respect you and hope the best for you. You live in WA right? We're probably both burned to a crisp from Sunday because we forgot sunscreen is a thing.

You know, you are absolutely right about that sunscreen thing!!! It's crazy but i got sunburn at the beach on Friday. In Seattle! That's only happened to me in places like So Cal or Arizona.

Ok, for the record, I think you're a good guy for the most part but you have a preference based on a distinction that I feel has it's roots somewhere i'd rather not go.

You also have a LOT of work to do in terms of understanding where women like Ekron and I who want to live normal lives and insist that we are not different in most respects are coming from.

I appreciate that you love my work in astronomy and that I have had to stick up for myself at times in my life when no child should ever have to. However we have to agree to disagree on some things and you by your own admission saying there are things you still need to work on means a lot to me. I hope you continue to work on them because as you admit, a lot of what you've said here was at times quite toxic.

I no longer see you as I did earlier tonight that's for sure. Anyone who is willing to re-examine their position is a thinking, well-reasoned person worthy of respect. I did not respect you at all before you finally admitted you may be wrong about us.

You may not know this but I once believed exactly as you do about personal disclosure, which is why I always did it. It was only after encountering people in that other thread that I began to dig in my heels a little on it and examine whether my personal policy was actually fair to me. Something I willingly did voluntarily I was being told to do or I wasn't a good, ethical, moral person.

Moreover the reason I was being told to do this seemed based on a hypothetical situation we just never hear about, a transphobic guy killing himself because he found out he slept with woman of transgender experience. I was being asked to put MY life at risk for a hypothetical situation!? Seriously?

Transgender women are far more likely to be the target of violence, either directed at them by the person they disclosed to or by themselves for reasons of depression whose source often the seeming futility of trying to have anything resembling a normal life.

I posted the story of a young transgender woman who took her own life after disclosing to a guy who fell in love with her. The guy mentally abused her relentlessly after she disclosed and a normally happy young woman with her life wide open fell into deep depression which was terminal. She left a note for her parents explaining that she didn't want to be a freak for the rest of her life and despite everything she was made to feel like one by that guy.

When I mentioned this in that other thread someone else discounted her suicide and placed a higher value on the hypotherical life of a hypothetical man in a hypothetical scenario which we never hear about in the real world than on this girl's very real, death.

That indicated to me that her life was of no consequence to this guy who of professed to be a moral person making moral judgements.

Furthermore that guy blamed the young transgender woman, saying that she probably depression issues and was very cold about her death.

I realized then, no matter what i might do, in the eyes of guys like him (and i thought you), i would always be the one to blame.

If I didn't disclose and some poor guy found out my backstory and killed himself I was evil and to blame. If I disclosed before having sex as that young woman above did I could be mentally abused, physically abused or murdered and in the eyes of the same person I'd be to blame.

When I realized that no matter what I did I'd be viewed as amoral and could not win, I decided to think of doing what is best for me regardless either of your objections. All moral arguments to the contrary looked hollow and a smoke screen for transphobia.

Neither of you have to live my life or deal with the ramifications of disclosure.

I do.

And for that reason neither of you have any right to tell me if, when or how I have to do it.

a reply to: Domo1

hi - i am 5`10 - cannot remember what eyes i have - but theres two of them , hair what little is left seems brownish . beaten with the ugly stick till it broke then abused by a hard life .

i want sex with straight females

but would entertain a relationship with anyone

note the difference ?

originally posted by: Cuervo

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Cuervo

To me, the Hollywood depiction of transgender people has caused far more damaging misconceptions than any drag queen has.

I honestly think that a certain group transgender people have done an insane job of alienating themselves from all potential allies.

It's important to remember that these creepy perpetually offended people don't represent the majority. They're just the shrillest.

I've witnessed your evolution in coming around to what, exactly, it is that transgender people go through. I know that your words were far more hurtful in the past so I'll cut you some slack these days because I understand that it's a process to accept certain things.

However, you must understand that, for as long as there are people who speak as you have and far worse, there will always be a need for advocacy for transgender folks. When a transwoman or transman no longer wants to identify as trans*, they are not doing so because they are alienating the rest of the transgender demographic; they are doing it because they are succeeding at what most of us want to succeed at: living a normal life.

I think the reason it makes people uncomfortable is because many seem to think they are entitled to know everything about everybody and it gets under their skin to think that the pretty girl at the bar may have been born with a penis. The thought that a transwoman may give them an awkward erection makes them feel threatened. This sort of intrusive entitlement the average person believe they have into the lives of others is the exact reason many trans folk go into stealth.

Those who don't should certainly be commended but those that do should never be shamed.

x10000

THANK YOU! *hug*

Domo if you really want to evolve on this issue then you may want to copy this post and save it somewhere so that you can refer back to it from time to time for it will inform your wording, and help you perhaps take a fresh look at a lot of how you interact with us in general.

I am happy to be stealth and I love my life. The last thing I would want is to be forced out because i disclosed to some guy who then tells his buddies who then tell theirs and so on and so on.

He gets to laugh and go home. (Perhaps that's what you might have done too?)

I get to think of packing my bags to move to another city.

a reply to: Domo1

Sorry if it sounds that way, but there is no ill intentions or 'Smart ass whit'

yeah, i've wanted to do a topic for a while about Gender Fluidity, just never knew how it would be received

and i have always wanted to go to Seattle

a reply to: EKron

I wasn't including anyone in particular... my main focus was on the Original story and those who don't want their Gender policed but are willing to police other peoples 'Gender expression' and the hypocrisy of them not wanting to identify with the GLBTQ+ community, but try and police a pride event..

a reply to: Darth_Prime

but there is no ill intentions or 'Smart ass whit'

Ugh, that was meant as a huge compliment!

yeah, i've wanted to do a topic for a while about Gender Fluidity, just never knew how it would be received

I think that you would do a great job at setting it up so it's not poorly received. It will probably be mildly crappy, and there will no doubt be a lot of one liners, but ignore them and focus on people that are legitimately interested and I think it will be a grand success.

Give people a chance and they may surprise you. At the very least you'll probably help a couple people out, and that tends to spread.

and i have always wanted to go to Seattle

If you get a chance you should! The whole state is a gem, we have everything. Deserts, rain forests, mountains, ocean, It's awesome. Just don't tell anyone. Wen you're done with your vacation you have to pretend it sucked and rained the whole time.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
a reply to: Annee

“The decision was taken by transgender individuals who were uncomfortable with having drag performances at the event,” it wrote. “It was felt that it would make some of those who were transgender or questioning their gender uncomfortable.”

They have since changed their Mind and allow Drag Acts, but the point was that Drag 'Mocks' Gender Which is not true, and it would make trans People feel uncomfortable

The one thing i don't get is, the Trans People who don't want to associate with the GLBTQ+ community are the ones that are trying to decide what and what not can happen

This will be my only response in this thread but thank you, thank you for saying that. deuces

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Kojiro

Good luck with this, the whole feigning ignorance.

That was certainly never said. Quite the opposite in fact.

I believe it was. It certainly was said that it would be understandable if a transgender didn't disclose because the past sex of the individual is behind them. Love interest was actually meant to imply sex interest, it was admittedly not the best phrasing. Sadly, I'm still right despite my mistake in phrasing.

So, transgendered people are ineligible for marriage? Since when? That would certainly be news to EKron.

In the unlikely event that a transgender person hadn't informed the person they were going to marry. Transgender people should have the same rights as the rest of us, including marriage. Just not if they only feel the most important thing to divulge is that they are unable to have children, which was said.

It's interesting that you, who claim to hate "dishonesty" has to now utilize dishonesty to win some kind of debate.

I'm not being dishonest, you're doing a good job of painting me that way, but all these things were said. Agree, the majority of people in the thread stated that if things became romantic, they would disclose the sex change operation. Problem is, many wouldn't if the relationship wasn't going to be long term, and the whole argument was that a transgender person is now completely the exact same as whatever sex and gender the identify with.

Jade's dad was correct, real "piece of work" indeed.

I don't see a need for personal attacks. I'm not attacking anyone personally, I'm disagreeing vehemently with what I find to be a disturbing trend of entitlement among a certain subset of transgender people here on this website.

Ok last one for real this time lol, yes you are right Domo in that it was said that certain T-folk do not feel obligated to share their past history and have no compassion to those that they may deceive. This is true I was there.

a reply to: JadeStar

You know, you are absolutely right about that sunscreen thing!!! It's crazy but i got sunburn at the beach on Friday. In Seattle! That's only happened to me in places like So Cal or Arizona.

It's getting past 4 AM here, so I'm just responding to this for now on account of being long winded.

Sunday was brutal. My girlfriend and I (she keeps telling me I do this wrong, Me and my girlfriend?) cruised down to a little county fair and spent the whole time watching the gals in 4-H doing games with their horses. We both grew up on the back of a horse, and can't help ourselves.

Anyway, we ended up in some bleachers and if you thought my neck was a little red, you would be wrong. It's crimson.

-----

I have a suspicion we'd get along well if we actually met.

It's late, and a certain love of my life got me to foster this sweet old dog (I'm a huge sucker and our house has turned into a shelter, guess who is super good at bottle feeding kittens now). Need to make sure this pretty gal is is situated and sneak me and my dogs into bed.

I just wanted to add one more thing, I think that it can be hard to argue or disagree with some speakers from the Trans community (or any other for that matter) simply because they have attracted groups of fanatical sycophants that will rabidly defend certain points and viciously attack those that don't agree.

a reply to: Cuervo

I just saw this thread and tried to catch up but every other post has been deleted. Must have been an ugly scene in here a while ago, eh?

Not as far as I know - beezzer, Gus, and I were joking around is all - it was off-topic.
If there's been any hostility, I must have missed it.

a reply to: Domo1

Oh, thank you than

Maybe i will... i'll have to write it out first