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Seattle sees fallout from $15 minimum wage, as other cities follow suit

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posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:58 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Yes, my mother, was alone when she raised and supported 5 children on her own. She, however, refused to accept foodstamps, even though we easily qualified. My older sister was the in-house cook and babysitter. That saved on childcare. My mother went from being an Executive Secretary for U.S. Ambassadors to ringing up groceries at Shoprite. She sacrificed, everyday for her children to get food on the table, clothes on our backs...etc.




posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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originally posted by: Ultralight
a reply to: amicktd

A single person is not able to live on $50k a year, why?


Where did I say that?

What I said is 35 - 50K is not a middle class wage.
edit on 23-7-2015 by amicktd because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 11:30 AM
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I understand the pleas of others to raise the minimum wage to to ensure that all people can live to a certain level. I really do. My position will not change for a couple of reasons. Raising the minimum wage to 50$ an hour would still be subsidized by others. Business owners would just pass along the extra cost in the form of higher priced products and us as consumers would burden that. It's subsistence in both forms, either welfare or product prices. Secondly, 99% of the world's successful population were not born into opulent lifestyles and achieved success through diligence and hard work. That's why when some of us say work harder, study harder etc. it's not from a stoop or soapbox but from experience. We made it so can you. I'm no genius and nothing about me separates myself from someone with less success other than effort. If I can do it anyone can. I want people to succeed, I really do. The best thing anyone ever did for me was NOTHING. It made me realize that as hard as I thought I was trying I just had to try harder.

I have enjoyed the debate, I will agree to disagree with some of you for now until we can meet somewhere on common ground in the future.
edit on 23-7-2015 by In4ormant because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-7-2015 by In4ormant because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:14 PM
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originally posted by: johnwick

originally posted by: In4ormant

originally posted by: johnwick

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Vector99
Here's a thought, eliminate non-skilled jobs by not ever supporting them. That in turn should force the workforce to become better skilled right?

Here's a business that article referenced. A comic book store. Don't go there.

Here is a thought, with Moore's Law and all, determine how long it is going to take for a computer and a robot to take the "Do you want fries with that?" jobs. Then what/ it is all the evil Toyota Robotics fault that I did not try hard or recognize the fast coming trends that are BLARING on the internet everywhere; nope, I was too busy complaining about all the rich people to pay attention to taking care of my future.

Way to go hero.


So, in essence you support low paying unskilled labor professions, but then say the people that work at them should just do better? I don't get it.


So I get particularly agitated at the palm up crowd when they show themselves…sue me!

I wouldn't call someone willing to work 40 hours a week or more the "palm up crowd"

If there were no unskilled workers there would be no minimum wage. 7 billion people can't be millionaires though, so I ask you what is the solution then?


Work them to an early death, while they suffer the entire time, and never get to rest or do anything but work and sit at home, because they can't afford to do anything.

At least that seems to be the business model at present.


The guy that works 60hrs a week that's trying to get over the hump and succeed is the guy I want my tax money going to. Sign me up. Much rather that joker get it and see him win than the guy you just raised to 15$ an hour and says he wants less work.


Flat out great post.

Most just want to live by their labor .

Some think they live too well.

Thanks brother , you see clearly.


After reading this and other posts to get a clear picture about the argument here at ATS, I understand that most people on the "can't make a living wage" side of things are placing the blame for a large portion of the problem on business owners that do well.

This is, in my opinion, misguided.

There are many factors that have led to this result however one of the most impactful contributing factors is the one that nobody seems to mention is inflation. The Federal Reserve has been cranking out funny money since it's inception and the major result is the loss of our currencies' value. If you want to place blame on something, place it where it belongs and not on the businesses that are trying to keep something alive in this country.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:16 PM
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originally posted by: fshrrex
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Yes, my mother, was alone when she raised and supported 5 children on her own. She, however, refused to accept foodstamps, even though we easily qualified. My older sister was the in-house cook and babysitter. That saved on childcare. My mother went from being an Executive Secretary for U.S. Ambassadors to ringing up groceries at Shoprite. She sacrificed, everyday for her children to get food on the table, clothes on our backs...etc.

And your mother made the choice to have 5 children….
Choices carry consequences and results, should everyone who decides not to have children be responsible for those that have 5?



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:21 PM
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originally posted by: Pinke
Read piiiiiiiiiiiles of posts in this thread, but there is no individual person to address this to.

Truth is we have to come to terms with the fact that we're automating work using flesh aka people. Eventually we will do this with robots. Eventually the robots will repair themselves when they're broken. When that day comes we have to look back at history ...

We weren't evolved for this. For thousands of years people could have a place to stay, some respect, and food for pitching in where they could doing things that most people can. We've slowly evolved a society where we've created a hated group of people, lets call them burger flippers, who we believe could have done better but they didn't because we're better than them and everyone has a ''choice''.

So the question is, when the robots come do we enslave the intelligent to work for the benefit of the majority or do we need to set fire to everyone in the burger flipping faction since they're taking all our resources and robots replaced their jobs?

We're having the same conversation now except education and automation replaced the respect these people used to be able to achieve. Very few people in America seem to respect the ones that didn't / can't make it. There is a deeper question here than 'something for nothing' I feel and that is what do you do with all of these people?

It is not the first time in history that Machines have taken over jobs that were once the realm of skilled craftsman. Your choices usually are to:

Find a career that will provide what you need for as long as you plan on needing it.

Be so good at your skill set, that it will take many years for machines to catch up.

Innovate to find a new novel method of making money to support yourself.

What has changed in the past 200 years?



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:24 PM
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a reply to: notmyrealname

Religious indoctrination precluded the use of birth control. She, and we, survived by blood, sweat and tears. I added to the income since I was 13.

edit on 23-7-2015 by fshrrex because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: johnwick
Much like the business owner ignores, rent, food, car payment Insurance gas...... It costs money to stay alive just to get to work so one can work.


Why is that any business owner's responsibility? My job is to make sure my business remains viable, paying everyone else's rent, gas, food, insurance and auto financing is not a factor.


Henry Ford might disagree. Although he was generally a greedy antisemitic selfishly motivated scum bag who funded Hitler at least he paid his workers enough to buy his cars. lol

What you depend on is externalization. You want to push the cost of doing business onto society at large. The tax payers, perhaps your employees extended families. It is or should be your problem if your employees can't house and feed themselves on the wages you pay.

It's not 100% your fault. Affordable housing is an issue as is the rising cost of living in general. Forces you yourself have no control over.

San Fransisco is an example. A 400 sq ft studio appartment is around $1300 a month. Many people can't even pass the application process. Subsidized housing is needed for two reasons, because wages are so low and because rent is so high.

With apartments/condo's part of the issue is HOA payments and property tax owners have to pay. Property tax is so high because so many corporations pay low taxes or find ways to avoid them altogether (with a team of tax attorneys an offshore operations). States and counties also need the tax revenue because wages are so low and they need to fund multiple programs, police etc.

I don't rent my condo out, I live in it for now but the HOA and property taxes combined are about $8,000 a year. If I did rent it out I couldn't charge $1,000 a month and make it worth while. With wear and tear, upkeep, the initial investment to remodel and taxes on the profit from rent I'd have to charge at least $1700 a month. A one bedroom. Welcome to the Bay Area.

Housing costs could be lower if landlords were given a break on property taxes. There would have to be some way to insure the tax break is passed down to the tenants.

I've also employed multiple people. I understand competition forces cost cutting measures. It's hard to pay someone $20 an hour and also provide prices that will keep customers flowing in. I had to micromanage workers, train them to be little machines. It was almost like Taylorism. A soulf draining way to live. Produce more, faster, always behind schedule.

That's capitalism. It pushes humanity to the limit. The "invisible hand". Small businesses aren't exactly the problem here. The main problem is the wealth accumulation we see at the top. The corporations and financial institutions setting the tone if you will. Small businesses have to compete with that. Lower prices, boost production etc.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:27 PM
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a reply to: notmyrealname


www.washingtonexaminer.com...

In fact, the divergence in pay has been growing steadily for the past three decades. The ratio of CEO earnings to average worker pay in 1980 was only 42:1. Today, that ratio stands at a whopping 373 to 1.

In other words, there are fewer opportunities for workers on the rungs of the labor ladder below the top executive. The net business startup rate (new businesses less closed firms) continues to trend negative as it has for the last six years.

Government intervention to arrest the growing divide between regular citizens and top level CEOs has been minimal. For some, this is a welcome conclusion as government is never the engine of growth and thus, should not interfere in the private sector. However, others contend the government should intervene and "level the playing field."



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:32 PM
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originally posted by: fshrrex
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus


Yes, my mother, was alone when she raised and supported 5 children on her own. She, however, refused to accept foodstamps, even though we easily qualified. My older sister was the in-house cook and babysitter. That saved on childcare. My mother went from being an Executive Secretary for U.S. Ambassadors to ringing up groceries at Shoprite. She sacrificed, everyday for her children to get food on the table, clothes on our backs...etc.


And I'm sure her quality of life suffered, as did yours perhaps? In either event she sounds like a great person and good hard working people don't deserve to suffer in such ways.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 12:33 PM
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a reply to: notmyrealname

It's not part of a single industry vanishing -- it's an entire category of labor vanishing combined with a shrinking pool of talented people actually required to get things done. Knowledge based economy sums it up.

Think one or two people being able to run a farm or mine site from their living room producing enough resources for several hundred or even thousand others. How does your ordinary average person compete with that?
edit on 23-7-2015 by Pinke because: Last bit



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: notmyrealname

originally posted by: Pinke
Read piiiiiiiiiiiles of posts in this thread, but there is no individual person to address this to.

Truth is we have to come to terms with the fact that we're automating work using flesh aka people. Eventually we will do this with robots. Eventually the robots will repair themselves when they're broken. When that day comes we have to look back at history ...

We weren't evolved for this. For thousands of years people could have a place to stay, some respect, and food for pitching in where they could doing things that most people can. We've slowly evolved a society where we've created a hated group of people, lets call them burger flippers, who we believe could have done better but they didn't because we're better than them and everyone has a ''choice''.

So the question is, when the robots come do we enslave the intelligent to work for the benefit of the majority or do we need to set fire to everyone in the burger flipping faction since they're taking all our resources and robots replaced their jobs?

We're having the same conversation now except education and automation replaced the respect these people used to be able to achieve. Very few people in America seem to respect the ones that didn't / can't make it. There is a deeper question here than 'something for nothing' I feel and that is what do you do with all of these people?

It is not the first time in history that Machines have taken over jobs that were once the realm of skilled craftsman. Your choices usually are to:

Find a career that will provide what you need for as long as you plan on needing it.

Be so good at your skill set, that it will take many years for machines to catch up.

Innovate to find a new novel method of making money to support yourself.

What has changed in the past 200 years?


What has changed? "Free trade". Neoliberal globalization. The massive accumulation of wealth in the last 35 years alone...And technological unemployment has exponentially increased.

Technological change happens at a faster rate than it did 200 years ago. People who criticize technological unemployment aren't Neo-Luddites.

Also, 200 years ago the US and Britian employed protectionist measures. Atop of that sustence farming or self sufficient rural economies were still possible. At least in America.

The process of dispossession has gone full steam ahead. We see it unfolding now in places like India- where tens of thousands of farmers have committed suicide as their livelihoods became impossible to maintain.

There are various complex market forces at play.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:11 PM
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originally posted by: Pinke
a reply to: notmyrealname

It's not part of a single industry vanishing -- it's an entire category of labor vanishing combined with a shrinking pool of talented people actually required to get things done. Knowledge based economy sums it up.

Think one or two people being able to run a farm or mine site from their living room producing enough resources for several hundred or even thousand others. How does your ordinary average person compete with that?

Are you elevating those that are not suffering as much to a better class of people than average? What is it that you think separates the average from the above average?



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:33 PM
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originally posted by: Ultralight
Insurance should be a factor.


I took that as auto insurance. With my businesses we had medical/dental but not every business can afford this.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:35 PM
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a reply to: notmyrealname

Finallly, we agree on something. Another member of ATS brought up skewed calculations of the CPI Index which are based on, at best, 1980 figures. However, I believe groups such as the U.S. CHamber of Commerce are the biggest lobbyists for this misrepresentation to control national wage policies and MAXIMIZE PROFITS.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: notmyrealname

The Federal Reserve has been cranking out funny money since it's inception and the major result is the loss of our currencies' value.


The main erosion of the middle class is when the dollar was delinked from gold in the 1970's. This allowed that printing to take place. We need a dollar linked to commodities to see real value reassert itself.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:38 PM
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originally posted by: JeanPaul
What you depend on is externalization. You want to push the cost of doing business onto society at large. The tax payers, perhaps your employees extended families. It is or should be your problem if your employees can't house and feed themselves on the wages you pay.


None of my employees were ever on public assistance. Ever.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:46 PM
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a reply to: notmyrealname

Entrepreneurs come from families with money

fortune.com...

The secret sauce to being a successful entrepreneur is apparently coming from a family with money. Quartzreported that when a person has more cash on hand, they’re able to take the risks needed to kickstart a business.

A 2013 research paper cited by the publication also found that shared traits among entrepreneurs included being white, male and well-educated. “If one does not have money in the form of a family with money, the chances of becoming an entrepreneur drop quite a bit,” according to Ross Levine, one of the economists who wrote the study, to Quartz.

The average cost to launch a startup is around $30,000, according to the Kauffman Foundation. Data from the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor show that more than 80% of funding for new businesses comes from personal savings and friends and family.

It’s one of the most important factors.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 01:59 PM
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a reply to: JeanPaul
So come up with a solution or quit because complaining about a problem without a solution is what losers do.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: fshrrex
a reply to: notmyrealname

Entrepreneurs come from families with money

fortune.com...

The secret sauce to being a successful entrepreneur is apparently coming from a family with money. Quartzreported that when a person has more cash on hand, they’re able to take the risks needed to kickstart a business.

A 2013 research paper cited by the publication also found that shared traits among entrepreneurs included being white, male and well-educated. “If one does not have money in the form of a family with money, the chances of becoming an entrepreneur drop quite a bit,” according to Ross Levine, one of the economists who wrote the study, to Quartz.

The average cost to launch a startup is around $30,000, according to the Kauffman Foundation. Data from the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor show that more than 80% of funding for new businesses comes from personal savings and friends and family.

It’s one of the most important factors.


That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard! I was homeless and living on the street at 15 years old AND from a poor family; I have done quite well for myself. What I did not do is make mistakes every time something did not work out the way I planned it or pretend that it was someone else's fault as to why I did not achieve my goals. I am sure you can find many articles written by people that want to feed your desire to reject responsibility for your personal situation. So I guess, because you were not born rich, your life is a testament to never having an opportunity; if it is per-determined than live with it and stop bitching.

I see opportunities everywhere some see reasons as to why they can't or couldn't both are correct based upon the individual's point of view.



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