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posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 08:58 AM
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Can i say, does the SAS pratice captureing an oil rig which is guarded by the SAS and not get a single casualty?
Do you know many operations done by the SAS publicaly are actually SBS operations?
Did you know when that SAS patrol shot at an SBS patrol that the SAS where in the wrong place.
Did you know that the SBS does everything the SAS does and diveing.
They practice boat assualts on ferrys in the english channels with passengers still on board.
The SBS done the very first air boarding and sinking of a ship.

Any more questions?




posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 11:14 AM
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Originally posted by fritz
Sorry chaps. You is all wrong. The Special Air Service are the best of the best, are second to none - whoever - anywhere in the world. Period!


Come on maybe in counter-terrorism the SAS is the best but you just can' say their the best because they did good ops. Let me tell you about what the seals did in Vietnam according to a times account , in some 600 missions navy seals laid waist to 70 rivercraft, 200 bridges, factories and other structures, and at least 200 fortified positions. They also killed more than 175 communist solidiers and captured 60 while losing 6 of their own men. And that's just a little bit of what they did throughout the Vietnam war. So my point is plenty of special operations groups have done amazing things, heck ther's a lot we don't even know about. According to a figure in Tom Clancy's special ops book the US special forces does thousands of special ops each year that's a lot of missions we don't know about. And that's just what their telling us, so you or I don't really know who has the best special ops.

Oh year and here's another story did you know that in the Vietnam War a platoon of about 13 south korean marine's wiped out an entire North Vietamese regiment at the end of the battle more than 400 NVA soldiers lay dead with only 2 Koreans dead.



[edit on 8-1-2005 by blue cell]

[edit on 8-1-2005 by blue cell]



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 06:44 AM
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Sorry Blue cell. This is only my opinion based on a personal experience.

Unlike so many 'also-ran' SF, the SAS specialise in 'hearts and minds', a concept learnt in Malaya and refined in Borneo. To this day, 'hearts and minds' works, especially in Afghanistan and Iraq. Perhaps it's the difference of mindset. We Brits prefere 'sneaky-beaky - catchee monkey'. We don't believe in 'peace through superior firepower' because it just don't work.

Yes the SBS do all sorts of things at sea, but then, so do the SAS. The SBS has, as one of it's TAOR's, the oil/gas rigs dotted round our shores. But SAS also practice 'recapturing' a tango held oilrig.

In Afghanistan, it was a combined SAS/SBS team that got SEAL/Delta out of the # at the prison where Taliban had overpowered their captors.

It was a combined SAS/SBS team that entered Tora-Bora to flush out Bed Linnen - but he'd already gone to the laundry.

Where necessary, SAS/SBS work together but I can say that if there is a blue on blue (as in the Falklands) it is because both organisations are so secretive while on ops.

As to SEALs doing so well in Viet Nam. Yup! Absolutely correct! No quibble from me on that score - even had one of the best weapon systems to help them, the Stoner - but then they operated mainly in or on the waters and canals of the Mekong Delta. I don't think they were part of main Marine Riverforce - but again, I could be wrong.

If you really want to be impressed about any battle or action in Viet Nam, then you should read the Battle Of Long Tan. Royal Australian Rifles against 2 VC Main Force or NVA Regiments. Amazing!



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 07:05 AM
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Originally posted by fritz
Yes the SBS do all sorts of things at sea, but then, so do the SAS. The SBS has, as one of it's TAOR's, the oil/gas rigs dotted round our shores. But SAS also practice 'recapturing' a tango held oilrig.

So do the SBS , the SBS do everything the SAS does and more.
Might i add most boat troop members are ex marines which is where the SBS gets its recruits.


Where necessary, SAS/SBS work together but I can say that if there is a blue on blue (as in the Falklands) it is because both organisations are so secretive while on ops.

It was because the SAS had and still has many people in london MOD that are Ex SAS to prmote them.
The SAS had sat com's the SBS didnt.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 09:44 AM
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Devilwasp, I'm afraid you are out of touch. There is no longer a 'them' and 'us' set up.

Nowadays, ALL selection is done at Creden Hill, Herefordshire. It is called 'Selection 2000'. Both the SAS and SBS recruits are trained by training staff drawn from both SF training wings. In the beginning, both SAS/SBS Instructors had a laugh at recruit's expense - trying to outdo each other by 'binnin' as many recruits as possible.

Recruits go through Selection - a 6 month course, followed by a Continuation Training Phase, a Combat & Survival Phase followed by up to 12 weeks on a non-too friendly Jungle Phase, where you learn all the above - but in the jungle.

Pass all that and you're in. But only just! A year's probation awaits successful candidates and you have to 'fit in'. Other people have to be able to work with you. If you don't fit in, then you're binned. Simple as that!

SAS/SBS cross train as much as possible. This also involves 'exchange' postings to other SF round the world. (It costs the taxpayer over 1.5M to train each SAS/SBS operative and it's money well spent)

TA SAS a bit differant. Can take people straight off the street and train them from scratch. With Reg SAS and 'R' Sqn, minimum of 3 years service in any corps, preferred you be para trained and have some experience of wide range of weapons and explosives etc.

'Many are called, but few are chosen!'



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by fritz
Nowadays, ALL selection is done at Creden Hill, Herefordshire. It is called 'Selection 2000'. Both the SAS and SBS recruits are trained by training staff drawn from both SF training wings. In the beginning, both SAS/SBS Instructors had a laugh at recruit's expense - trying to outdo each other by 'binnin' as many recruits as possible.

ACTUALLY, the SBS reruits do SAS selection then go onto SBS selection.
Mabye you need to get "back in touch"


Recruits go through Selection - a 6 month course, followed by a Continuation Training Phase, a Combat & Survival Phase followed by up to 12 weeks on a non-too friendly Jungle Phase, where you learn all the above - but in the jungle.

Pass all that and you're in. But only just! A year's probation awaits successful candidates and you have to 'fit in'. Other people have to be able to work with you. If you don't fit in, then you're binned. Simple as that!

The SBS recruits have the opertunity to join the SAS or go onto SBS training, since it is harder after all.


SAS/SBS cross train as much as possible. This also involves 'exchange' postings to other SF round the world. (It costs the taxpayer over 1.5M to train each SAS/SBS operative and it's money well spent)

They cross train in many things but most things are kept seperate.
Both try to out do each other, infact the SAS seem to hate the SBS.



posted on Jan, 9 2005 @ 11:08 PM
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heres MHO. US Army Special Operations Force Delta is one of the best, so being an american, I say they are the best, but only because i root for the home team. Ive studied most of the worlds special operations groups, and, if we all went to war against eachother, thered be a lot of dead operators, and the last one left standing, would need serious medical attention to survive. I was special Special Ops. Not an SF operator though. The trainig i went through was Hell. I met and worked with Green Berets, SAS, SEALS, and the like. They are ALL a breed apart. To be the best in the world overall is impossible IMHO, but, each has their specialty, and in one or two areas there may be a "best". You cant be an expert at everything, but you can in a few specialties.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 10:39 AM
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I not an Expert on Delta Force, but I do have a Few Tid Bits for you:

* Delta Force is considered Elite because they Draw their recurtes from other US Special Forces, so unless you've done a tour or two with Army Rangers, or Navy SEALS, they won't even open the envlope containing you application, much less look at it!

* Delta Force has to do with Counterterrorism

Anyone who Clames to know much more then that about Delta Force is lying. Noone that I know of is even sure what service branch they report to, if the do report to one! They Might repot directly to the US Special Operations Command, skipping the "Normal" chain of command!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 01:13 PM
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You may or may not be right Ghost. The problem with the US SF is that you will never ever hear about 90% of what they have done. So much of it is clandestine. Maybe the SAS report thier operations because thats all they have done and nobody would know anything about them if they didnt?



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 03:57 PM
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Originally posted by skippytjc
You may or may not be right Ghost. The problem with the US SF is that you will never ever hear about 90% of what they have done. So much of it is clandestine. Maybe the SAS report thier operations because thats all they have done and nobody would know anything about them if they didnt?

The SAS only report to their command not through official channels, thats why the gov doesnt really trust them.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:01 PM
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Delta Force is US Army, located, somewhat at Ft. Bragg. i believe the proper name is Special Forces Operational Detatchment Delta. there is info out there on them, most of which is misleading. Generally speaking, they report to the Army chain of command, but, when they are deployed on anything other than training, they report directly to the Pentagon, JSOC, as do most of the other Special Warfare Groups.
While in the Army, I went to a briefing to join SFOD, and put in my packet. at the time, I was told by the NCOIC at the Briefing, that you DID NOT have to be a Green Beret, Seal, etc, to apply and be selected, only that you had to be the proper MOS, and at least an E4 with enough points to Pass the E5 board. Although being in another Special Warfare Group didnt hurt at all. The jist of his speach was that if you passed the basic selection, ie they read what youve done in the military, pass the physical and the Physical Fitness test, pass the initail mental evaluation, meet the afore mentioned requirements, You would receive order to report to Ft Bragg to begin training. No I dont know if he meant that you went to SF selection, and after Graduation you went to further SFOD training, or if he meant you went straight to SFOD training. I do know that if you boil it down, you are SF, Green Beret. Delta Force is theoretically just as the proper name says, a seperate and highly specialized Operation Dertachment of the Green Berets. They, at least at the time, wore the Green Beret and the long tab when they wore a uniform on base. They do have a seperate compound on Ft Bragg, that is Off Limits to anyone other than the DF operators and their Resident Families. I state the previous as FACT as of October, 1998. Obviously, things may have changed quite drastically since that time, but am comfortable relaying what i was told in the briefing at that time. We were not told that any of it was confidential, but then, as vague as most of what we were told there was, I cant exactly see how it would be.
Id like to know where some of you who state that "anything other than what i know is a lie", where are you getting your info from? were you ever in Delta? Did you ever even put in a packet for selection? Did you ever attend the briefing like I have attended? I will agree that a lot of info out there is bogus, but there is info out there that the military isnt trying to keep secret. They arent going ot go into detail about any training, or even generally where they are stationed, and if anyone ever says that they had gone Black, obviously they are full of something brown and smelly. But dont immediatly discredit someone for knowing something a little more than what your internet searches have turned up.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:14 PM
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just for S&G, i ran a google search on Delta Force. specialoperations.com seems to have the basics down, at least for the officers. as an enlistedman, you do not have to have a BS, or 12 months of command as a captain or equivelant rank. YOU ALSO at least at the time DID NOT have to be a captain or a major to go to selection, unless you were an officer. So unless they have changed the whole thing entirely and made them all officers, short of those 3, the requirement listed on that page are the real deal as far as I was told at the briefing I had attended.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:51 PM
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Howdy Devilwasp.

The problem with most books written regarding the exploits of the SAS/SBS is that sometimes the author can embellish or shall we say 'remembers' things slighlty different than how the event actually unfolded.

I am not saying the author deliberately misleads the reader, just that there have been disagreements between those that have been on these missions about what actually happened.

I'm suprised that there is no mention on 14 INT as they take SAS/SBS and deploy them (until recent years) in N.Ireland.So i suppose you could possibly say they are the most highly specialised unit/company that we have in the UK.

Then again it is very hard to judge different units that specialise in very different areas.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by Sariel
I'm suprised that there is no mention on 14 INT as they take SAS/SBS and deploy them (until recent years) in N.Ireland.So i suppose you could possibly say they are the most highly specialised unit/company that we have in the UK.

Yeah , it was mentioned in the book and the author was actually in it.
They also employ women as well as men so they are equal sex as well.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 06:08 PM
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Originally posted by W4rl0rD
Did you know that the GIGN always shoots people in the leg?They are laughed on buy some (SAS and others),but they cross-train and hope to learn some of their legendary marksmen skills. Shooting someone in the leg is harder than killing someone.



Thats BS Its no harder to shoot someone in the leg its just stupid. If you shoot a terrorist in the leg he is still going to lace you up with automatic fire. You shoot to kill not to wound are you get killed. Any time you should have to fire you weapon is because of a lethal threat and you dont shoot to wound in those cases.

There is many cases were GIGN have used lethal force. On Dec 26,1994 on a third day of a hijacking that already seen 3 of 177 hostages murdered GIGN stormed the plane, all terrorist were killed.

This is from a member of GIGN

"GIGN are trained in the principle of the single aimed shot that is taking out enemy in a single accurate round. Infact if there are alot of hostages, we prefer to eliminate as many adversaries as possible in a simultaneous sinper volley."- Antoine Delmas*

*name has been changed

-source MAXIM march 2001 pg 138



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 07:13 PM
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Okay here is a profile on israels navy commando unit.


The basic missions of S"13 are naval raids, underwater commando ops. It also specializes in counter-terror ops specializing in infiltration through sea, land, and air.

The training phase is made of
four months of basic infantry training in the Mitkan Adam IDF SF training facility, two and a half months of advanced infantry training is held in the IDF infantry school. Three weeks of HALO and HAHO training at the IDF parachuting school. The next phase is the preparing phase, its held in the Atlit Naval Base and lasts about seven months. This stage prepares the the soldiers for the diving course and the underwater combat training.
The next phase is the diving phase, this lasts about a month in this phase the soldiers learn the basics of combat diving. They learn how to survive dangerous underwater situations, (rocks, curves, pressure depth, etc) all the diving is done in pairs with the recruits tied to each other so as to allow them to easily notify the other of a problem. The last phase is the advanced phase in this phase the soldiers learn advanced diving techniques, underwater demolitions and weapons and long months of practicing sea to land inscursions, ( diving, ships, submarines and parachuting into sea.) Then the soldiers learn how to combine all of what they learned in martime CT operations ( on ships, oil rigs,and near coast buildings.) In the middle of this phase the soldiers are divided according to palgot, the best go to the raids palga, the second best are assigned to the underwater palga or the divers, the third best are assigned to the above water palga.

Okay now I'm going to do the organization structure.

Shayetet 13 is divided into three groups, the first one is the raids group, they are in charge of assasinations, incursions, and CT. The second one is the underwater palga is in charge of hydrographic reconnaisance, and underwater demolitions against ships, and harbours.
The third one is the above water palga, they specialze in the operation of boats, and support the underwater palga, and the raids palga, by driving them accuratly and safetly to their targets.
source

[edit on 10-1-2005 by blue cell]



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 06:46 AM
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Originally posted by question_reality
Delta Force is US Army, located, somewhat at Ft. Bragg. i believe the proper name is Special Forces Operational Detatchment Delta. there is info out there on them, most of which is misleading. Generally speaking, they report to the Army chain of command, but, when they are deployed on anything other than training, they report directly to the Pentagon, JSOC, as do most of the other Special Warfare Groups.
While in the Army, I went to a briefing to join SFOD, and put in my packet. at the time, I was told by the NCOIC at the Briefing, that you DID NOT have to be a Green Beret, Seal, etc, to apply and be selected, only that you had to be the proper MOS, and at least an E4 with enough points to Pass the E5 board. Although being in another Special Warfare Group didnt hurt at all. The jist of his speach was that if you passed the basic selection, ie they read what youve done in the military, pass the physical and the Physical Fitness test, pass the initail mental evaluation, meet the afore mentioned requirements, You would receive order to report to Ft Bragg to begin training. No I dont know if he meant that you went to SF selection, and after Graduation you went to further SFOD training, or if he meant you went straight to SFOD training. I do know that if you boil it down, you are SF, Green Beret. Delta Force is theoretically just as the proper name says, a seperate and highly specialized Operation Dertachment of the Green Berets. They, at least at the time, wore the Green Beret and the long tab when they wore a uniform on base. They do have a seperate compound on Ft Bragg, that is Off Limits to anyone other than the DF operators and their Resident Families. I state the previous as FACT as of October, 1998. Obviously, things may have changed quite drastically since that time, but am comfortable relaying what i was told in the briefing at that time. We were not told that any of it was confidential, but then, as vague as most of what we were told there was, I cant exactly see how it would be.
Id like to know where some of you who state that "anything other than what i know is a lie", where are you getting your info from? were you ever in Delta? Did you ever even put in a packet for selection? Did you ever attend the briefing like I have attended? I will agree that a lot of info out there is bogus, but there is info out there that the military isnt trying to keep secret. They arent going ot go into detail about any training, or even generally where they are stationed, and if anyone ever says that they had gone Black, obviously they are full of something brown and smelly. But dont immediatly discredit someone for knowing something a little more than what your internet searches have turned up.


I never said Anything else is a lie. What I said Is: anyone who calimes to know a lot more is lying. I have a friend who was a Green Beret, and he told me Delta Force is still Officially Classified! This means most info on there operations is not avalible to the public. I also Have a Grandpa who is a Retired Navy SEAL. He told me that most counterterrorism related stuff falls under Black Op's and is never made public!

If I offended anyone in my origional post, I'm sorry!

Tim
ATS Director of Counter-Ignorance



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 09:53 AM
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The S-13 is based upon the Naval Brigade of the Jewish pre-military Haganah. Only in the 1970's it was professionalized as a naval SF unit and elite CT force. During the following decades the S-13 based its reputation as the second best elite SF in the IDF.

The S-13 took part in Operation Spring of Youth of 1973 in which Israeli special forces raided Beirut secretly overnight and killed some of the members of Black September, which had carried out the Munich Massacre of Israeli athletes in the Munich 1972 Summer Olympics.

Beside its great successes, the S-13 has also known great tragedies.

On September 8, 1997 the unit suffered a serious blow during a raid in Lebanon, when it was caught in a Hezbollah ambush and 11 of its soldiers were killed, including the unit commander.

In recent years, it was discovered that S-13 veterans had high occurrence of cancer, probably due to training in the polluted Kishon River & Haifa Bay. A commission for investigating the matter didn't find statistical evidences that the diving in the Kishon caused the cancer. However, Minister of Defence, Shaul Mofaz, decided to compensate the divers' families in spite of the commission findings.

Despite all of this, the S-13 is still considered as the best elite SF unit in the Israeli Defence Force and has strong positive reputation within the Israeli public.

This is the history of the israeli naval unit Defence Force and has strong positive reputation within the Israeli naval unit Shayetet 13 or שייטת 13.

I hope this is Ok by the mods for the cut and paste thing, if its not then I'll change it.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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I found another intresting Israeli SF unit they specialize in fighting in extreme weather conditions, they guard the electronic intelligence installation on Mount Harmon against any attacks from syrian special forces seeing that the installation is about 500 metres from the syrian border.

Here is there basic training, since all of the soldiers allready have training and expirence in other SF units they focus on what the trainees don't know.
The soldiers learn advanced fast roping, snow combat maneuvers, camoflauge and skiing in the slopes. The secondary mission of the unit is SAR , so they also many of the operators learn advanced paramedic training. Each training session usually consists of spending several nights in the snow, digging their own snow rooms and learning to sleep in them Another central focus is learning how to capture enemy positions , and defending their own positions in the snow. The basic training for each new operator lasts eight weeks,

3 weeks basic winter training -snow movement, survival, winter dressing, fighting and navigation.

2 weeks General SAR training - fast roping, mountain climbing and medical training.

2 weeks advanced winter training- skiing, tactics.

1 week extreme weather SAR.


Here is some history I found about the unit, they mainly come from two units one is the PALSAR Golany it is an elite unit in the
IDF northern infantry brigade. Sayeret MATKAL which had an inner alphine team with specialized gear and equipment. In 1973 the Yom kippur war began with Syria and and Egypt launching twin suprise attacks on Israel. In the first day of the war, a battalion of Syrian Commandos well trained in Mountain Warfare, took out the Israeli military outposts on the mountain that were protected by regular infantry soldiers. The Syrians also got their hands on highly classified information and electronic Intelligence gathering equipment . On the last day of the war, the Golany infantry brigade, lead by PALSAR Golany, managed to recapture Mount Hermon. By the time the battle was over, 52 Israeli soldiers were KIA and over 100 were badly wounded. The Yom Kippur war vividly showed how ill-equiped and under trained the Israeli military was to handle situations in snowy mountain conditions. So then they formed a unit specifically designed to fight in these conditions.

source

[edit on 14-1-2005 by blue cell]



posted on Jan, 15 2005 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by ShadowXIX
Thats BS Its no harder to shoot someone in the leg its just stupid. If you shoot a terrorist in the leg he is still going to lace you up with automatic fire. You shoot to kill not to wound are you get killed. Any time you should have to fire you weapon is because of a lethal threat and you dont shoot to wound in those cases.

There is many cases were GIGN have used lethal force. On Dec 26,1994 on a third day of a hijacking that already seen 3 of 177 hostages murdered GIGN stormed the plane, all terrorist were killed.

This is from a member of GIGN

"GIGN are trained in the principle of the single aimed shot that is taking out enemy in a single accurate round. Infact if there are alot of hostages, we prefer to eliminate as many adversaries as possible in a simultaneous sinper volley."- Antoine Delmas*

*name has been changed

-source MAXIM march 2001 pg 138


Only if large numbers of hostages are there,then they aim to kill. Its BS,if you get shot in the leg the pain will make you faint, don't tell me that unless you've been shot in the leg yourself.





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