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Do you have to carry ID, License, insurance, documents, blah?

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posted on Jul, 21 2015 @ 09:49 PM
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originally posted by: stosh64
a reply to: diggindirt

To me that is just so wrong, if ever there was a case where a warning is in order that was it.

Fail on the cop for not having common sense.

BUT, how would flipping out on the cop have helped him.

Don't get me wrong, there are many cops power tripping, with a little roid rage, and add a little narcissistic personality disorder. But how does it ever help getting confrontational?



Yeah, I thought so too.

I have no idea where you got the "flipping out" idea. I certainly didn't suggest it and in my wildest imagination I can't imagine him doing it. He will go to court and present his license and hopefully the license charge will be dropped and he will pay the $25 fine for not wearing his seat belt.
He did say, however, when relating his adventure with the cop, "There really was no need for that boy to stand there with his hand on his gun while I was getting my registration and insurance cards out." Having met some of these local cops, I know for a fact that they are full of themselves.




posted on Jul, 21 2015 @ 10:43 PM
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It sounds like, in NY at least the law is very similar to yours in the UK.


Even if the law does not require that you have your driver license document with you at all times when you drive, it is better to carry it.

If you do not have your driver license document, a police officer can use this fact as a reason to issue you a traffic ticket for operation without a license. While the ticket can be dismissed if you prove to the court or Traffic Violations Bureau that you had a valid license, you will be required to answer the ticket.

The law also requires that you exchange driver license information with other drivers if you are in a motor vehicle accident, and it is a violation if you have a commercial driver license and you fail to carry it with you.
.

According to the NYSDMV website
So while I noticed you receive some sort of odd pleasure in your perceived superiority in freedoms in the UK, it is nothing more than selective cherry picking and willful ignorance.
But please do enjoy your illusion of supremacy.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 01:31 AM
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a reply to: stosh64
I don't understand this whizzing contest about freedoms!

It appears to me that the legislators and cops in the UK respect the people and realize that there are far more honest people out there than dishonest people.

I ask you, what sort of a man would give an 87 year-old WWII veteran (right there on the plates) multiple tickets because he forgot to fasten his seatbelt?
Knowing that those citations would cause this old fellow to be trapped in a courthouse for at least an hour or so and maybe up to four or five.
Then, for the first time in over fifty years, have to humble himself before a judge who wasn't even born when he was serving his country. In his favor, his grandson and the county attorney have been buddies since childhood. I'm pretty confident that he knows that my brother-in-law is not a menace to society.

Seems to me their lack of discretion reeks of a power trip?



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:13 AM
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originally posted by: diggindirt

Seems to me their lack of discretion reeks of a power trip?


It does to me as well and it disgusts me .

If we were discussing the conduct of police and comparing between the UK and US the UK would win hands down regarding treating people with dignity.

But since the topic was DL laws I will save my opinion for the next "cop kills unarmed person" thread.

I am sorry your brother in law had to experience this unjustified abuse of power.


Sorry if OT



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 09:34 AM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
I'm typing this after inspiration from another thread but with respect to the OP, pulled away instead of going off-topic or being a troll.


Thanks for that...although I didn't see it as being a troll, but at least you're getting a plethora of answers here. I think I already answered you in the other thread well enough for my sake.




posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 09:52 AM
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I got to pg 4 and I'm practically bouncing in my seat to share this. ( I promise I'll be going back for the rest as soon as I hit send)

"driving " is not what we as people driving think of it. Driving to an LEO is being in the car with the keys in the ignition. I know this because once I was smart enough to have a neighbor drive me home with my car while drunk. I was very drunk, but we were both surprised to turn to our street and see the police at her house! We parked in front of MY home and decided that I wouldn't go to my friends house to pick up my kids. The police actually yelled at me for taking the keys out of my own ignition because it interfered with them giving me a drunk driving ticket! After some drunk arguing with an idiot LEO he told me to walk home and got angry when I proceeded to walk ten steps to my front door and refuse his requests to, "get back here!"

I had to open my door when my friend brought my kids and a kinder officer just laughed at me and asked me how I knew I needed to take the keys out of the ignition. Which I kindly shared that my father told me that when he was teaching me other drinking tips like never walking away from my drink.

So, yes the person you get matters. However if these same people didn't have quotas and stupid laws on their side then we the people wouldn't have so much frustration with LEO and they wouldn't have frustration right back.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 09:52 AM
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edit on 22-7-2015 by Iamthatbish because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 09:53 AM
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Double post my apologies
edit on 22-7-2015 by Iamthatbish because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 10:20 AM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Cheers man, I've derailed other people's threads before though and learned my lesson


On a related note, here in the UK picture card ID driver licenses were introduced some years ago, but I've never got round to replacing my scrappy old paper one because the government knows on it's database that I am licensed to drive.
I have a passport and that kicks ass for ID verification, so I just view the photo-license as a money raiser.

A couple of years ago I was pulled for something I can't remember, but didn't get a ticket or a warning, I think it was just a random check because my car then was a bit of a wreck.
When the cop asked if I had my license I pulled out this battered old paper document, and he laughed that he hadn't seen one of them for years. He then asked if the address details were correct as it is a potential £2000 fine not keeping the record up to date.

I laughed "No, I haven't lived there for years, but the car is registered to my correct address, and your police database knows where I live". The conversation developed and I suggested it was a silly outdated law and what a waste of public money it would be to chase a conviction, police time, etc.

He agreed that with digital systems now the law is pretty pointless and he would be laughed at by his colleagues if he tried nicking me for it, adding that he'd already checked my details from the license/number plate before stopping me and was happy I was who I said I was. He also said he doubted the Crown Prosecution Service would even take the prosecution forward.

I refuse to change my license to a picture card on principle and just a general non-conformist mindset. The government has my picture on it's database from my passport, and it is on record that I have been passed as competent to drive. It does not affect my insurance so nope, I won't be applying for that replacement card anytime soon.

I do wonder how long I'll get away with it though as new 'anti-terror' laws keep being suggested. Depending on the potential penalties it is likely I would continue to resist until I find myself in court.
Police and courts are not scary here, and fines are never a real punishment as you simply do a 'creative' income/expenses calculation and pay in installments lol



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: Iamthatbish

Haha, interesting story!
Your points regarding quota's had me thinking of another posters comments that city hall's/councils get a share of court fines? That would influence police behaviour for easy pickings low level tickets perhaps?

Here all fines go back to central government so it is not such an issue.
You may have seen another recent thread that a police area in England has just announced formally that they are no longer arresting people for 'reasonable' cannabis use. It is a waste of their time when there are 'real' crimes to solve.
Personally in my area I almost forget it is illegal as our police have adopted the same approach for years, just never formally announced it.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 01:06 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

You know, a lot of that depends on where you live, as it does here. If one lives in the middle of a large city (London, Washington D.C., Los Angeles, etc.), it seems to be that you're more prone to running into jerk LEOs who see it as their need to raise revenue for the department by making citations rain down on the citizens.

If you live in smaller towns, such as the one I just moved away from that has a population of 3,500, you tend to have nicer officers who are more understanding in nature and demeanor.

Come to think of it, I recall reading some time ago about a study done on the mental health of people--those living in large urban areas against those in small, suburban or rural areas. If memory serves, there was a statistically significant difference between both the happiness (happier away from urban areas) and depression (more depressed in urban areas). Cops are people, too, usually living in or near the areas that they patrol, so it wouldn't surprise me that cops in urban areas tend to be a bit more angry and depressed.

Of course, I read this a while back (like, five or six years ago), so I could be completely off base.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 01:28 PM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

I completely agree

Discretion by individual police officers is an excellent form of policing, and I imagine if it ever became law to carry ID/license while driving in the UK most cops would just say "carry it next time" instead of nicking people.

I have to say though, if a law was actually introduced requiring me to carry papers to drive I would look at it as a move towards police state.
The very idea of it is alien to me.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:03 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand

There is no problem in the UK if the driver tells the constable the same details as his/her police radio has told them about the car's number/license plate registered keeper, and the driver looks the right age.
If there was a difference then the constable has reasonable suspicion to detain for purposes of identification, but it still is not an offence until the police can prove the driver has lied.

I have a British passport and driving license but I only need to show them if I want to leave the country or within seven days of being involved in a traffic stop by a police constable.

So what's the deal in your country or US state folks?
I don't have to carry any ID in the UK, even as a car driver.


Ahh, just want to clear this up a little bit.

If you are driving a motor vehicle (or the police have reasonable suspicion that you were driving in certain circumstances) then under s 164 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 you must, on request, produce your driving license amongst other things. This is the actual offence for which you would be prosecuted - failing to produce on that time and date.

"Producing" - attending a police station within 7 days and producing the documents for inspection - is a defence.

My world is a world of technicalities, you'll have to forgive the pedantry.











posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsandWe only have to show ID in the UK if the constable has 'reasonable suspicion' and although it probably is pushed to the limit, they still need to show that 'reasonable' suspicion.


You might be mixing up stop and search laws (where reasonable suspicion is needed) with Road Traffic Act requests. If you're driving a car, that is all they need to request documentation. "Reasonable suspicion" in that scenario only comes in if you're not in the car at the point of request (ie there was an accident and they have reasonable suspicion that you were the driver).



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:12 PM
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a reply to: EvillerBob

Haha, no I love your technical detail!

So, is it technically an offence within those 7 days and 'not guilty' or whatever when the license is produced at the station, or just suspicion of an offence, becoming a 'failure to produce' offence at the end of the period?
Very interesting so I'd be grateful for your interpretation, but I assume we agree that there is no requirement to carry any documents while driving a private vehicle in the UK.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:14 PM
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originally posted by: EvillerBob

originally posted by: grainofsandWe only have to show ID in the UK if the constable has 'reasonable suspicion' and although it probably is pushed to the limit, they still need to show that 'reasonable' suspicion.


You might be mixing up stop and search laws (where reasonable suspicion is needed) with Road Traffic Act requests. If you're driving a car, that is all they need to request documentation. "Reasonable suspicion" in that scenario only comes in if you're not in the car at the point of request (ie there was an accident and they have reasonable suspicion that you were the driver).
I realise the difference with both laws, this was more about the requirement to carry documentation to drive, and less about the rights of the officer to request it.
I see your point though.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:38 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

Yeah, not to derail the discussion, but it's similar to the idea that you can't own a pistol...at all...in the UK. I just don't get that. That seems like a police state mentality, to me.

But I haven't been pulled over for a traffic violation in many years--the most recent times I've needed to produce my license were because someone rear-ended me...both times...while I was at a red light. That's when the necessity to have proof of insurance comes into play as well, although now, many states are moving toward allowing digital proof, like on a smart phone.

They should allow that for licenses, too.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:49 PM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey

Oh, I agree absolutely that UK firearm laws are restrictive, but while the most our cops generally carry is extendable batons (and in my area) less than one in ten have a tazer, pretty much nobody is ever scared of being pulled over by cops in the UK, both parties know they are unlikely to be shot dead as a result of the interaction.

This thread is about regular citizens being forced to carry ID by law, and threat of penalty, in differing nations and circumstances.
That is an alien concept to me.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: grainofsand

Yeah, I wish that weren't the case, but with needing ID for things ranging from buying beer, getting into a club, getting into an R-rated movie (although I've never been carded for that in my life), ordering alcohol while out at dinner, etc., etc., most people here in the U.S. would carry state-issued ID anyhow, because no one is going to always remember to grab that only in specific circumstances.

There are myriad other reasons why an ID is necessary in daily routines other than driving that do not come with financial penalties or arrests if you don't have it. I guess my point is that if you don't want to have to carry a license, don't drive, as driving is a privilege and not a right, (ETA: but since the average person will need an ID often in their lives, they will have it with them regardless).

But I get it, and having lived in Germany for almost 4 years of my life, it's easy for things to seem "alien" that exists in one culture that doesn't in another.


edit on 22-7-2015 by SlapMonkey because: add a bit of clarification



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 03:02 PM
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originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: EvillerBob

Haha, no I love your technical detail!

So, is it technically an offence within those 7 days and 'not guilty' or whatever when the license is produced at the station, or just suspicion of an offence, becoming a 'failure to produce' offence at the end of the period?
Very interesting so I'd be grateful for your interpretation, but I assume we agree that there is no requirement to carry any documents while driving a private vehicle in the UK.


You are committing the offence when you fail to provide on request (ie when the police officer stops your car and asks you to provide your driving license). The fact that you then produced the documents at a police station is a defence that can be raised in court, as per section 147(8) RTA 1988. The statutory defence basically removes any realistic prospect of conviction so there's no point in prosecuting you for failing to produce when asked.

If you want to get really picky about the semantics, it only becomes a defence if there are proceedings against you, so if the proceedings haven't started then you haven't actually got a defence at all. Rather than confusing things further, it's safer to say that producing within 7 days (and it doesn't have to be within 7 days, if you've got a good-enough reason to convince a judge) will stop you being prosecuted for the offence.

As to whether I agree with you... there are, as always, a few sides to that argument. Also, I've not got any case law on the matter at hand.

You could say that to be required to produce inherently means you must have the ability to produce, therefore you are required to have the documents available to produce. As you could conceivably be stopped at any time while driving, you therefore need to have your documents with you whenever driving.

You could, instead, point out that the law does not require you to be prepared to produce, only that you produce on request. Every day that you drive without being stopped, the requirement to produce is not engaged so it is irrelevant whether or not you have your documentation. It would be blatantly ridiculous to have a situation that is legal on one day but not the next, simply because on one of those days you were stopped by police. If it would be legal on those days when you are not stopped by police, it would be legal on all of the days. Therefore, there is not a legal obligation to have documents with you.

Just to throw a spanner in the works... s 165A allows an officer to immediately seize your vehicle if he reasonably believes you do not have a valid license or insurance. So, yes, you would have 7 days to produce... but you might not have your car for those 7 days. All it takes is a glitch in the system when they're checking your name against the database...

Personally I'd keep my documentation with me. No real downside to having it, a handful of potential downsides to not having it. I'm all for having principles, but I also believe in picking your battles and this really isn't a hill worth dying on


Edited to add:

I just wanted to re-address a point I made about it potentially not being a legal obligation to have documents with you. This would lead to a situation where you are effectively being prosecuted as a result of failing to do something that you are not legally obligated to do. It's not a difficult leap to say that such a thing would be illogical, and could only make sense if the Act inherently required documentation to be carried at all times.

I am hampered by the lack of material, to be honest, I'm sure this has already been considered by a court and a determination has been made.
edit on 22-7-2015 by EvillerBob because: (no reason given)




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