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The Ontological Argument for God.

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posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 07:50 AM
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This argument is very wordy and so first I must go through and clear up a few terms so we are all on the same page.

Possible world and actual world- A possible world is a logically coherent description of a way things might have gone. In the list of all possible worlds one of those worlds is the actual world.

There are three ways to define an entity when speaking about existence:

-Impossible- which means something cannot exist in all possible worlds.
Example: Square circle, or Square with three sides.
-Contingent - which means something can exist in some possible worlds, but not all possible worlds.
Example: Unicorns, Fairies
-Necessary - which means something exist in all possible worlds.
Example: Number concepts and Shape concepts.

The last term I want to clear up is God:

In the premise following God is defined as the greatest possible being.

Premise 1: If God exist then God existence is necessary.
Premise 2: It is possible that God exist.
Premise 3: If it is possible for God to exist then God exist in some possible worlds.
Premise 4: If God exist in some possible worlds, then God exist in all possible worlds.
Premise 5: If God exist in all possible worlds, then God exist in the actual world.
Premise 6: If God exist in the actual world, then God exist.

Now its important to realize that after premise 2 the rest of the premises follow modal logic meaning if the first 2 premises are true then 3-6 logically follow. Anyways enjoy.
edit on 19-7-2015 by ServantOfTheLamb because: typo




posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 07:58 AM
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The Devil exists...
Or whatever "It" is, exists...


& logically, to not have something antithetical in existence to "the worst of spiritual nature"...
I can't see as possible.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:02 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Elaborate a little more.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:04 AM
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What a blinking load of philosophical mumbo-jumbo! Premise this and premise blinking that! Just because you blinking-well understand ONE blinking premise this premise that argument doesn't mean you can ruddy-well apply it to all sorts of blinking nonsense. Blinking 'eck!
edit on 19-7-2015 by socketdude because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:05 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Well, personally speaking, having been subject to the worst in spiritual nature...
I find it an impossibility that it's opposite (God) could not exist.

I won't prattle on, but the point is if one exists, so does the other...

I've experienced both, but I experienced the worst before hand.
That solidified my belief in a greater possible, nay, probable being, before I'd experienced the greatness.
edit on 19-7-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:13 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs




I won't prattle on, but the point is if one exists, so does the other...


How can God logically exist and not exist at the same time? That violates the law of non-contradiction and seems an incoherent notion.

Or are you saying if God exist the Devil exist?
edit on 19-7-2015 by ServantOfTheLamb because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:13 AM
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a reply to: socketdude

Do you have anything to say that convincingly refutes the argument rather than calling it crap.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:14 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I never suggested such a premise.
edit on 19-7-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:14 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

Are you saying if God exist then the devil exist?



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:16 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

I'm saying if the Devil exists then God exists...

Sounds the same...

But it's not.
There is a subtle difference.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:19 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I dont see the difference we could rephrase this as:

If P is True, then Q is True.
If Q, then P.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:21 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb
I've tried to get my head round this argument in the past.
My understanding of Anselm's version would go somethng like this;
Is there a "greatest possible"?
Well, the "greatest possible" certainly exists in the mind (because we can conceive it).
But something which exists in the mind is not as great as something which exists in reality.
So a "greatest possible" existing in the mind alone is not a genuine "greatest possible".
There would have to be something greater, namely a "greatest possible" existing in reality.

My reservations about Anselm's version;
I'm not sure that it proves anything more than "we can conceive a 'greatest possible" existing in reality".
And I'm not sure that it proves enough, even if valid, to be useful to the Christian faith.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:23 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Let me explain my thought process...

Someone could believe in God, experience God, and never the Devil...
They could summise that God exists, but maybe not the Devil...



On the other hand someone could experience the Devil, and never God...
But for there to be a Devil without God would make this Universe evil by design of the dark...
Which is easily debunkable given the Love that traverses this world.




Now you could say the evil that spreads is proof of the devil, it could also be nothing more than faulty brain wiring...
Therefore ruling out he necessity for a Devil, but not God.




It makes a lot of sense as a thought, not so much when put into words.

edit on 19-7-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)

edit on 19-7-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: Oh autocorrect you Devil!

edit on 19-7-2015 by CharlieSpeirs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:28 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

I believe the term greatest possible being is coined in order to establish the modal properties of God. It means God has all "Great Making Properties" which are properties that it is better to intrinsically have than not to have. So for example when we talk about Power, God would have the power to the greatest possible extent in some possible world and so would follow that he has it in all possible worlds which would follow that God has it in the actual world and so God has power to the greatest possible extent. We could do the same for knowledge and so on.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:34 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb


God is defined as the greatest possible being.

Premise 1: If God exist then God existence is necessary.
Premise 2: It is possible that God exist.
Premise 3: If it is possible for God to exist then God, exist in some possible worlds.
Premise 4: If God exist in some possible worlds, then God exist in all possible worlds.
Premise 5: If God exist in all possible worlds, then God exist in the actual world.
Premise 6: If God exist in the actual world, then God exist.


If God exists then what the hell is really going on here? This planet is run by a bunch of F##### trolls at every level. Why has God allowed that to occur without opening up a big can of smiting whoop-ass upon all these pricks like he did with creeping death in Egypt?

Is God an alien?

Also, continuing with your premise, what's God in relation to UFO's and/or aliens?



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:44 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Just ask yourself one question, "How old is God?" and you should have the answer as to whether he exists or not.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:49 AM
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a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

That makes more sense, and I understand what your thinking now. From my own theological perspective I think in order to experience God you have to realize first that our nature from birth is what I would call sinful. Now I suppose you could realize that without ever hearing of the Devil and the fall of man, but it would seem odd to me.




Now you could say the evil that spreads is proof of the devil, it could also be nothing more than faulty brain wiring...
Therefore ruling out he necessity for a Devil, but not God.


Look at the story of Adam and Eve. The serpent does not cause them to disobey, but merely puts the thought of disobedience into their mind and they make the decision to disobey. We are the cause of the spread of Evil. It is our choices and our actions that ruin this world. The Devil merely puts a choice before us and I'd say most humans choose wrong 7 times out of 10 if not more.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: ServantOfTheLamb

Ahh. The ontological argument for god. I never understood why anyone thinks this is a convincing argument.The ontological argument only works when you have evidence to support your first premise. When you use it on god, it is like an algebra question where you use the values of A and B to solve for C,D, and E. But.... You don't know the values of A and B, so you assume they are god. I guess since there is no real evidence for their beliefs, every other argument starts sounding better and better.
It is an exercise in imagination. It starts with a premiss that is at best a wish, or an assumption. "If god exists". It sounds more like an excuse for getting around the "we have no evidence" problem.
It also works with unicorns, magic, and underpants gnomes because it is being used incorrectly. In this instance, it is being used as an argument to circumvent an over poweringly obvious lack of evidence.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 09:00 AM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

That makes more sense, and I understand what your thinking now. From my own theological perspective I think in order to experience God you have to realize first that our nature from birth is what I would call sinful. Now I suppose you could realize that without ever hearing of the Devil and the fall of man, but it would seem odd to me.




Now you could say the evil that spreads is proof of the devil, it could also be nothing more than faulty brain wiring...
Therefore ruling out he necessity for a Devil, but not God.


Look at the story of Adam and Eve. The serpent does not cause them to disobey, but merely puts the thought of disobedience into their mind and they make the decision to disobey. We are the cause of the spread of Evil. It is our choices and our actions that ruin this world. The Devil merely puts a choice before us and I'd say most humans choose wrong 7 times out of 10 if not more.


Sounds like a guilty conscience. I see the claim that everyone is born with a sinful nature, an excuse to lesson your burden of guilt for your percieved lack of self control. Effectively blaming god for your "sinful nature". It takes the blame right off of you.



posted on Jul, 19 2015 @ 09:02 AM
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a reply to: Sublimecraft




If God exists then what the hell is really going on here? This planet is run by a bunch of F##### trolls at every level. Why has God allowed that to occur without opening up a big can of smiting whoop-ass upon all these pricks like he did with creeping death in Egypt?


I would say the planet is run by people who worship satan in some form or another, and I would say if you were aware of Bible prophecy you would know exactly whats going on. The Bible speaks of a Global government that divides the world into ten regions. The U.N. has already created 10 economic regions. The next thing the Bible mentions is a Global Currency, do a little research about the rise and fall of currencies and you'll see this is exactly we we are heading.

The question I would ask you is if God has justice to the greatest possible extent how much evil can he ignore?




Is God an alien?

Also, continuing with your premise, what's God in relation to UFO's and/or aliens?



I suppose you would have to define alien first before I could answer completely but based on the normal definition of the word, no God could not be an alien because an alien would be a contingent being.

how do any of my premises lead to anything about UFO's?

I would say if there are UFO's and beings flying around in them they are fallen angels or nephilim. Trey Smith has a good video on youtube just youtube his name and the word nephilim




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