Ukrainian Government Acknowledges that Some of Its Leaders Are Nazis

a reply to: Xcalibur254

My bad I replied to the wrong post. Should have been pretty clear which post it was aimed at though. But my bad.

Ok now i see it, he wasn't even talking to me. Major fail on my part. Sorry?

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: YouPeople

Here's an idea: instead of mounting a personal attack, why don't you discuss the issue? In the Second World War, the invading Germans were looked upon as liberators. During the Russian Civil War, and later, under Stalin, Ukrainians suffered and died because of Russia. Is it surprising, then, that Nazi symbols have a different meaning to Ukrainians than they do to other nationalities? I have shown that pro-Russian factions embrace the fascist and Anti-Semitic aspects of Nazi "philosophy." Don't you have a problem with that? Or does being pro-Russian make it okay for them to be Nazis?

You're full of it. The Svoboda party and Right Sector are fascist parties and there's only one meaning for this salute:



You know, this guy:





Stepan Bandera himself was a fascist and NAZI sympathizer. He was a fascist. Ya, sure, the NAZI's ended up arresting him and putting him in a plush jail for ranking officers but it wasn't because he wasn't a fascist- it was because he wanted an independent fascist Ukraine.

Are there fascists in Russia? Of course. Are they heading state security? No. The fascists in Ukraine were used to strong arm Viktor Yanukovych out of office. Funded with billions of dollars from the USA. You'll deny this till your face turns blue of course. You'll accuse me of being Russian, or of defending Putin. All very predicable looking at your posts.

One thing the far right fascist parties in Ukraine have right is that Ukraine should be independent. It should be a free and democratic society though, not a place where antisemitic fascists can hold onto state power. Ukraine should be free from World Bank/IMF strings/loans and Russian manipulation of their economy/productive capabilities.

Both sides are wrong but no matter what sensible people should not make excuses for fascist parties holding state power (as you're doing here). There's no excuse for this. What's your excuse?

a reply to: JeanPaul

Still playing up that nazis in Ukraine how funny. Here you might want to read this it's from Nemtzovs daughter after her father was killed in the kremlin. She mentions this whole Nazi thing specifically. And discusses how Russian propaganda kills people. So you might think before towing the party line there comrad.



m.vedomosti.ru...

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: JeanPaul

Still playing up that nazis in Ukraine how funny. Here you might want to read this it's from Nemtzovs daughter after her father was killed in the kremlin. She mentions this whole Nazi thing specifically. And discusses how Russian propaganda kills people. So you might think before towing the party line there comrad.



m.vedomosti.ru...

It's right there in front of your face. The Svoboda party and Right Sector are fascist parties. It's not "Russian propaganda" and predictably you assume I'm "pro Russian" just because I point out the reality of the situation. Give it a rest. I'm a libertarian socialist and as such I don't support nationalistic imperialism, the sort both Russia and the west are taking part in. Even more so I don't support or excuse fascism.

The USA has a long history of supporting fascist parties in order to push regime change. They also have a long history of supporting brutal dictators and Islamic fundamentalists. I also think it's obvious Russia/Putin don't offer desirable alternatives. Their brand of strong arm capitalism is just as bad as the Wests corporate financial aristocracy that runs things. Russia simply doesn't put up the same democratic facade. Both "factions", if you will, are anti-democratic. They place a small minority in disproportionate control of the economy and foreign policy (with imperialistic goals). Russia, China, The USA, Greece, Germany...it doesn't matter what country, actual democracy isn't on the agenda.

This sort of nationalistic competition for the worlds resources, for more sources of cheap labor, more consumers, more profits etc is not a desirable situation for humanity. I don't side with "team Russia" or team USA. What I will do is point out the realities, one of which is the fact Ukraine has fascists within it's western supported government. A bit like when the US supported the fascist Pinochet to push regime change in Chile. Or the right wing military personnel all throughout South America. Or the Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East. This is standard US foreign policy going back 75+ years.

Even further one can objectively point to World Bank/IMF's programs as being bad for the populations they target. Austerity is opposed by hundreds of millions of people if not billions yet it is forced on nation after nation. This is what Ukrainians will get. Not only austerity but their productive capabilities and public resources will be sold off to the highest bidder. This isn't "Russian propaganda" it's the reality of neoliberalism. Pointing this out doesn't mean I support a Russian alternative. It doesn't mean I support Russian economic exploitation of Ukrainian people. Putin could die of cancer for all I care. The world would probably be a better place.

I support actual independence, for multiple nations. Not just Ukraine. We see this manifesting in South America as multiple nations attempt to get out from under the World Bank/IMF's boot. For these efforts the USA has labeled Venezuela a threat to US national security, because they spearhead these efforts for an independent South America. I also support an independent Africa. Independent from these corrupt leaders propped in place by western corporations. With their resources and productive capabilities being exploited for the lopsided benefit of western corporations/financial institutions and the leaders they place in power. Like Afghanistan's current president, the x World Bank executive. Like the Shaw in Iran. Like Pinochet in Chile. Like Saddam in Iraq. Like Noriega in Panama. Like Juan Vicente Gómez in Venezuela. Like the Somoza family in Nicaragua. The Duvalier's in Hatti. Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines. Yoweri Museveni is a favorite in Africa when it comes to neoliberalism at the end of a gun barrel. Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo in Equatorial Guinea etc on and on. This process has been taking place the world over since the end of WW2. What viable alternative does Russia offer? None. More of the same yet nothing even remotely on the global scale as the west/USA. Russia could only dream of being such a powerful imperialist actor on the global stage.

The issue here is nationalistic competition and the fact that an extreme minority control the worlds governments and economies. The west, led by the USA, is not spreading democracy. We don;t even have actual democracy here in the USA:

www.bbc.com...

Russian propaganda of course!

I support sane, rational democratic movements which advocate economic policies that benefit a majority of the population. No matter what nation. I support foreign policy that is open and democratic. Foreign policy that's not linked to the bank accounts of massive multinational corporations and financial institutions. I don't support corporate aristocracy in the USA, Germany, France, Britain or in Russia/China. Nationalistic competition is a sore on humanities face. A potentially fatal sore.

a reply to: JeanPaul

I support sane, rational democratic movements which advocate economic policies that benefit a majority of the population. No matter what nation.

Do you believe that the Democratic Ethnic Republic of Donetsk is a sane, rational democratic movement which advocates economic policies that benefit the majority of its population?





If not, why are you unflaggingly smearing the people fighting them with Russian blaCK PROPAGANDA?

a reply to: JeanPaul

You're full of it. The Svoboda party and Right Sector are fascist parties and there's only one meaning for this salute:

Where have I ever denied that Svoboda and Right Sector are fascist parties? And you are wrong in thinking everyone sees everything the same way you do. The French tricoleur still flies proudly over France even though to many it is a symbol of The Terror, Napoleon's blood soaked conquest, and imperialism and torture in North Africa and Southeast Asia.

Stepan Bandera himself was a fascist and NAZI sympathizer. He was a fascist. Ya, sure, the NAZI's ended up arresting him and putting him in a plush jail for ranking officers but it wasn't because he wasn't a fascist- it was because he wanted an independent fascist Ukraine.

That is why he is so controversial as a potential national hero: he stood up against the Soviet occupation, but had unacceptable goals. You yourself admit that he wanted an independent Ukraine, and that is why some still think he should be treated as a hero.

Are there fascists in Russia? Of course. Are they heading state security? No.

Really? You don't think the directorate of the FSB place raisons d' ´etat above droite humaine? Seems to me that would be a good functional definition of fascism, wouldn't you say?

The fascists in Ukraine were used to strong arm Viktor Yanukovych out of office. Funded with billions of dollars from the USA.

You'll keep repeating this Kremlin lie until you are blue in the face.

One thing the far right fascist parties in Ukraine have right is that Ukraine should be independent. It should be a free and democratic society though, not a place where antisemitic fascists can hold onto state power. Ukraine should be free from World Bank/IMF strings/loans and Russian manipulation of their economy/productive capabilities.

I suspect there are more points you agree with them on.

Both sides are wrong but no matter what sensible people should not make excuses for fascist parties holding state power (as you're doing here). There's no excuse for this. What's your excuse?

I am not making an excuse for fascist parties holding state power, you are.In the 2014 election, neither Svoboda nor Right Sector won enough votes to win representation in the federal Rada. (They hold some seats at the local level.) When this happened, the three Svoboda members who were given portfolios as part of the interim coalition government resigned. Remember? Repeatedly calling the Kyiv government "fascist" while ignoring the fact that the separatists they are fighting are openly fascist is disingenuous, don't you think?

originally posted by: dragonridr
a reply to: JeanPaul

Still playing up that nazis in Ukraine how funny. Here you might want to read this it's from Nemtzovs daughter after her father was killed in the kremlin. She mentions this whole Nazi thing specifically. And discusses how Russian propaganda kills people. So you might think before towing the party line there comrad.

m.vedomosti.ru...

I didn't even realize people thought this was debatable until I saw this thread. Is everyone's Google search broken or what?
tracytwyman.com...

en.wikipedia.org...

etc., etc.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: JeanPaul

I support sane, rational democratic movements which advocate economic policies that benefit a majority of the population. No matter what nation.

Do you believe that the Democratic Ethnic Republic of Donetsk is a sane, rational democratic movement which advocates economic policies that benefit the majority of its population?

If not, why are you unflaggingly smearing the people fighting them with Russian blaCK PROPAGANDA?

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

You probably think the fascist parties in Ukraine are freedom fighters spreading democracy. You've already exposed yourself as a fascist apologist. I can't highlight my views any more than I already have. I don't support Russia. I don't support any fascist elements within any government. Anywhere. For any reason. Ever.

a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

That still doesn't answer my question. Do you support the fascists running Donetsk? Your obtuseness is also a part of the problem.

You probably think the fascist parties in Ukraine are freedom fighters spreading democracy.

And you seem to think the freedom fighters spreading democracy are really fascists.

You've already exposed yourself as a fascist apologist.

As have you for your praise for Venezuela.

I can't highlight my views any more than I already have. I don't support Russia. I don't support any fascist elements within any government. Anywhere. For any reason. Ever.

So you don't believe that sometimes it's necessary to support the lesser of two evils? You don't care how many Ukrainians die if there is a single Ukrainian living who has a fond memory of fighting the Russians in WWII?

a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

Absurd is correct. Like unreal.

It provides a platform from which every piece of criticism can be labeled as "Russian propaganda" or "pro Russian" and blame or focus can be shifted by saying "but they did this", like little children do.

Good posts.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: JeanPaul

You're full of it. The Svoboda party and Right Sector are fascist parties and there's only one meaning for this salute:

Where have I ever denied that Svoboda and Right Sector are fascist parties? And you are wrong in thinking everyone sees everything the same way you do. The French tricoleur still flies proudly over France even though to many it is a symbol of The Terror, Napoleon's blood soaked conquest, and imperialism and torture in North Africa and Southeast Asia.

Stepan Bandera himself was a fascist and NAZI sympathizer. He was a fascist. Ya, sure, the NAZI's ended up arresting him and putting him in a plush jail for ranking officers but it wasn't because he wasn't a fascist- it was because he wanted an independent fascist Ukraine.

That is why he is so controversial as a potential national hero: he stood up against the Soviet occupation, but had unacceptable goals. You yourself admit that he wanted an independent Ukraine, and that is why some still think he should be treated as a hero.

Are there fascists in Russia? Of course. Are they heading state security? No.

Really? You don't think the directorate of the FSB place raisons d' ´etat above droite humaine? Seems to me that would be a good functional definition of fascism, wouldn't you say?

The fascists in Ukraine were used to strong arm Viktor Yanukovych out of office. Funded with billions of dollars from the USA.

You'll keep repeating this Kremlin lie until you are blue in the face.

One thing the far right fascist parties in Ukraine have right is that Ukraine should be independent. It should be a free and democratic society though, not a place where antisemitic fascists can hold onto state power. Ukraine should be free from World Bank/IMF strings/loans and Russian manipulation of their economy/productive capabilities.

I suspect there are more points you agree with them on.

Both sides are wrong but no matter what sensible people should not make excuses for fascist parties holding state power (as you're doing here). There's no excuse for this. What's your excuse?

I am not making an excuse for fascist parties holding state power

Yes you are. And it's not a "Kremlin lie" to point out the fact the USG has pushed billions of dollars into Ukraine with the goal of manipulating their political process. Nor is it a "Kremlin lie" to point out the FACT the USG uses "NGO's" to push regime change in multiple nations. Not just Ukraine. Most recently they (USAID)were caught in Cuba.

There's a larger issue at play here, not just Ukraine. Which is why the USG gets my focus, also because I'm a US citizen and tax payer. I don't want my tax dollars going to subversive anti-democratic pro corporate foreign policy nor do I want to pay for the various outright wars these people wage. If I was Russian I'd probably focus more on the corruption that is the Russian government. Russia simply doesn't have the same
Imperialistic capabilities as the USG. Add to this fact many within Ukraine are in fact ethnic Russians so its not like the USA invading Iraq and or killing millions of innocent people with sanctions. Russia simply doesn't have the same imperialistic capabilities. If they did it wouldn't be any better than what the USG does.

The USA on the other hand has interfered with an endless stream of nations. Bombed countless nations since the end of WW2. Has overthrown countless governments. Propped up countless brutal regimes. Subjugated countless democratic movements the world over. This was supposedly to end with the fall of the USSR but it has not.

You probably think its all about "spreading democracy". The thought is absurd. You either don't understand how the US has been operating the past 100 years or you do and purposely deny it for whatever reason.

What's your point anyhow? To point out the fact the Russian gov is corrupt? Of course it is. They're not very good at faking democracy as the USG does. Russia is an easy target. Anyone who thinks the Russian gov is some benign force or force for good is naive or brainwashed. They represent Russian wealth. Russian nationalistic interess. For the 50th time I don't support Russia.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

That still doesn't answer my question. Do you support the fascists running Donetsk? Your obtuseness is also a part of the problem.

You probably think the fascist parties in Ukraine are freedom fighters spreading democracy.

And you seem to think the freedom fighters spreading democracy are really fascists.

You've already exposed yourself as a fascist apologist.

As have you for your praise for Venezuela.

I can't highlight my views any more than I already have. I don't support Russia. I don't support any fascist elements within any government. Anywhere. For any reason. Ever.

So you don't believe that sometimes it's necessary to support the lesser of two evils? You don't care how many Ukrainians die if there is a single Ukrainian living who has a fond memory of fighting the Russians in WWII?

Praise for Venezuela? I pointed out they lead efforts to end World Bank/IMF distortion of South American economies/governments. The fact you think they have a fascist government speaks volume to your backwards world view. You don't even know what fascism is. I don't like you and this "conversation" is about to turn ugly. There's nothing you have to offer as far as constructive debate. This ends now.

a reply to: JeanPaul

The fact you think they have a fascist government speaks volume to your backwards world view. You don't even know what fascism is. I don't like you and this "conversation" is about to turn ugly. There's nothing you have to offer as far as constructive debate. This ends now.

So much for freedom of expression and developing consensus through discussion. As for knowing nothing about fascism, why don't you correct me here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

We might as well stop discussing the actual subject of the thread, as you have yet to post anything that supports your assertion that the government in Kyiv is Nazi. All you needed to do was prove that Svoboda and Right Sector won more votes than they really did and that the Svboboda ministers didn't retire. Of course, you could just admit you are wrong, but then you couldn't accuse me of defending fascists, could you?

a reply to: JeanPaul

Oh, and for the record, I have never denied that the United States has interfered with the domestic politics of other nations when it believes it can further its own interests. All nations do this, as you yourself have pointed out. The problem in this situation is that Russia has been the principle actor in this affair and has been churning out propaganda to make it appear that it is the United States. Ukraine is useless to the United States in the condition it's in, which is why it is in Russia's (or at least Putin's) interest to keep it this way. The "Nazi coup" lie is one such propaganda riff. The Nazis got voted out. Deal with it.

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

Absurd is correct. Like unreal.

It provides a platform from which every piece of criticism can be labeled as "Russian propaganda" or "pro Russian" and blame or focus can be shifted by saying "but they did this", like little children do.

Good posts.

Of course it also allows you to dismiss reports from the "Mainstream Western Media" when they contradict your own narrative....

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

Absurd is correct. Like unreal.

It provides a platform from which every piece of criticism can be labeled as "Russian propaganda" or "pro Russian" and blame or focus can be shifted by saying "but they did this", like little children do.

Good posts.

Ya, I've noticed that on this site. The intellectual honesty of used car salesmen. Wrapped in some warped nationalist agenda. Putin is Hitler, the USG is unicorn Jesus and the IMF is just an economic doctor prescribing needed medication.

The reality is quite different. The whole lot of them are scoundrels. Picking a side is like choosing between AIDS and cancer. A busted knee cap or a broken arm. Is there a third option? That should be the question.

originally posted by: JeanPaul

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: JeanPaul

How can I make it any more clear? I don't support Russia. Your silly binary nationalistic paradigm is absurd and part of the problem.

Absurd is correct. Like unreal.

It provides a platform from which every piece of criticism can be labeled as "Russian propaganda" or "pro Russian" and blame or focus can be shifted by saying "but they did this", like little children do.

Good posts.

Ya, I've noticed that on this site. The intellectual honesty of used car salesmen. Wrapped in some warped nationalist agenda. Putin is Hitler, the USG is unicorn Jesus and the IMF is just an economic doctor prescribing needed medication.

The reality is quite different. The whole lot of them are scoundrels. Picking a side is like choosing between AIDS and cancer. A busted knee cap or a broken arm. Is there a third option? That should be the question.

The third option is incredibly simple Russia removes it's troops from Ukraine and let's those people live their lives. And allow them to make their choices good or bad. Russian politics created this issue they continually tried to control Ukraine instead of treating them as a partner. Russia spent well over what has been spent by NGOs in Ukraine. Russia spent billions the sudden a is the money they spent didn't go to schools or hospitals it went to paying off government officials like Yanukovych. Russia paid him to maintain Russian relations. Problem is it all came out and impeachment proceedings were started. The day before the final decision he runs to his backers in Russia. Russia created this problem instead oh helping Ukraine they have done everything to control them.

a reply to: JeanPaul

The reality is quite different. The whole lot of them are scoundrels. Picking a side is like choosing between AIDS and cancer. A busted knee cap or a broken arm. Is there a third option? That should be the question.

Funny you should put it that way: while bicycling downhill, I was suddenly confronted with a stopped truck*. I was doing about fifty miles per hour and there was no way I could brake or steer around it. I had several choices. I could hit face first, or I could twist and take the damage on my left shoulder, or I could twist and take the hit on my right shoulder. Here's what I could not do: I could not condemn the trucker for stopping, I could not indict the trucking industry for the prevalence of trucks, I could not fault the American economy for fostering the conditions that put so many trucks on the road, I could not start a political movement that would make trucks illegal....

Right now Europe is headed for a face plant and all you can do is moralize. People like you are the reason politicians can get away with what they are doing; you talk yourself out of doing anything. It's all "them" and they're all alike... might as well take it in the face.

*True story.

originally posted by: circuitsports
white is right

- free speech

You have the right to say that and the rest of us have the right to judge your character by what you've said.