Ukrainian Government Acknowledges that Some of Its Leaders Are Nazis

a reply to: DJW001

The Ukrainian people understood the Russian deal was a swindle and voted it down.

There was a vote on it? Rewriting history too I see.

Is this the new MO, just make stuff up and see what sticks?

It was Yanukovych who agreed to the deal and who consequently defected to Russia openly.

Was he not the legitimate president of Ukraine? What do you mean defected? There was a coup and he fled to Russia.

a reply to: dragonridr

This wasn't a loan it was an agreement to buy Ukraines debt. This means Ukraine didn't get to spend the money they already did. what Putin did is simple he said you owe Russia we will push out those payment dates and we will buy up additional debt in bonds, Meaning it out Ukraine further in debt to Russia this was by design. With Russia holding Ukraine a debt they figured that gives them a level of control. This offer was quickly deemed ones Eleanor since they were trying to lessen Mod cows influence on Ukraine nor increase it. This made loans from the EU much more attractive in that they were true loans where Ukraine borrows the money with a payment schedule. It also allowed them to invest the money where they could get positive returns unable to do that with Russian offer.

Cool story bro. Did you make this up yourself?

Such unsubstantiated drivel.

a reply to: YouPeople

There was a vote on it? Rewriting history too I see.

Is this the new MO, just make stuff up and see what sticks?

I stand corrected, the opposition blocked the vote:

Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Ukrainian counterpart Viktor Yanukovych held the sixth "interstate consultation" on 17 December in Moscow,[181][182] where they signed the 17 December 2013 Ukrainian–Russian action plan.[182] This consisted of the Russian National Wealth Fund buying $15 billion of Ukrainian Eurobonds and the cost of Russian natural gas supplied to Ukraine lowered to $268 per 1,000 cubic metres (this price was $400).[183][184] As part of the action plan, Russia committed itself to the restoration of its customs regulations on imports from Ukraine that had existed before mid-August 2013.[185] According to President Putin and Russian presidential press secretary Dmitry Peskov this deal was "not tied to any conditions" and Ukraine's possible accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia was not addressed.[186][187] Peskov also added "it is our principled position not to interfere in Ukraine's affairs" and accused other countries of doing the opposite.[186] According to President Yanukovych the trade situation between Russia and Ukraine required urgent intervention, and that it should be coordinated with other Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS) countries.[188] He also added referring to Russia–Ukraine relations, "We'll have to learn lessons for the future and not to repeat such mistakes".[189] And President Yanukovych also stated that Ukraine and Russia should strengthen cross-border and inter-regional cooperation "which create convenient conditions for the people".[190]

In response to the agreement, the opposition parties blocked parliament in order to defer its ratification since they quickly denounced the plan.[191][192] And approximately 50,000 continued their protest on Maidan Nezalezhnosti.[193] Where opposition leader Vitaly Klitschko told the crowd "He [President Yanukovich] has given up Ukraine's national interests, given up independence and prospects for a better life for every Ukrainian".[194] The opposition leaders vowed to continue their protests, if necessary through New Year and Orthodox Christmas (celebrated on 7 January annually), they repeated their demands for the firing of the second Azarov Government, early presidential and parliamentary elections.

en.wikipedia.org...

So Yanukovych negotiated the deal on his own, but it was not ratified by the legislature, therefore it never legally went into effect.

Was he not the legitimate president of Ukraine?

He was until he left office and fled.

What do you mean defected?

The moment he put Russia's needs before Ukraine's, he defected. He later fled when people found out he had betrayed them. Russia's offer was a scam, designed to strangle free trade and keep Ukraine indebted to Russia financially.

a reply to: DJW001

I stand corrected, the opposition blocked the vote:

You are going to stand corrected again, cause you are still making stuff up hoping that it sticks.

They didn't block the vote, they blocked parliament trying to POSTPONE the ratification.

They are the opposition, they never could've had the majority vote. Are you aware that opposition parties are not in the government, hence the name "opposition"?

Their vote was not needed to ratify the deal since the government has the majority vote. What they did was try to stop the government from ratifying it.

So Yanukovych negotiated the deal on his own, but it was not ratified by the legislature, therefore it never legally went into effect.

BS, making stuff up. Where did you get that it was not ratified?

Russia even gave them the first few billions of the agreed 15 billion loan and then the coup happened.

Sure looks like making stuff up is your new MO.

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: DJW001

I stand corrected, the opposition blocked the vote:

You are going to stand corrected again, cause you are still making stuff up hoping that it sticks.

They didn't block the vote, they blocked parliament trying to POSTPONE the ratification.

They are the opposition, they never could've had the majority vote. Are you aware that opposition parties are not in the government, hence the name "opposition"?

Their vote was not needed to ratify the deal since the government has the majority vote. What they did was try to stop the government from ratifying it.

So Yanukovych negotiated the deal on his own, but it was not ratified by the legislature, therefore it never legally went into effect.

BS, making stuff up. Where did you get that it was not ratified?

Russia even gave them the first few billions of the agreed 15 billion loan and then the coup happened.

Sure looks like making stuff up is your new MO.

No they didn't your wrong Russian deal fell through in fact it was one of the major causes of maiden. Several saw Russians offer as a trap. “I know of only one place where you can find free cheese – and that’s in a mouse-trap,” said Arseniy Yatsenyuk.


The opposition feaed that the price of the Russian bailout woild be Ukraine joining the Eurasian Union, a Moscow-led customs union and trading bloc was supposed to come into existence in 2015. Many see the Eurasian Union, a pet project of Mr. Putin’s, as an attempt to restore Russian influence over Ukraine and other parts of the former Soviet Union.

Realize the last thing Ukraine wanted was to return to the days of the Soviet Union after gaining their freedom from Russia. This turn around by Viktor Yanukovych caused accusations of Russian bribes because he was pushing for joining the EU. The complete turn around caused them to question his leadership in light of fraud allegations and impeachment proceedings. His fleeing to Russia later only confirmed the opposition was right.

a reply to: dragonridr

The December 2013 "deal" was aRussian takeover of Ukraine - it gave Russia "co-ownership" of every important Ukrainian industry and had been rejected by Yanukovych!! One wonders what was different that lead to acceptance in 2013......

Yanukovych was still in power when Russia started reneging on it by imposing 100% inspection of Ukrainian goods in breach of the customs provisions on 29 January 2014!!

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: dragonridr

The December 2013 "deal" was aRussian takeover of Ukraine - it gave Russia "co-ownership" of every important Ukrainian industry and had been rejected by Yanukovych!! One wonders what was different that lead to acceptance in 2013......

Yanukovych was still in power when Russia started reneging on it by imposing 100% inspection of Ukrainian goods in breach of the customs provisions on 29 January 2014!!

Actually the deal was an attempt to aquire Ukraine a gas distribution network. Oddly many people don't realize part of the deal opened it up for foreign investment. Putin isn't stupid he may be slot of things but he knew exactly what he was doing.

originally posted by: KAOStheory

originally posted by: Aloysius the Gaul
a reply to: KAOStheory

Your last post proved him right?? How's that??

1 battalion of fascist volunteers does not constitute any leadership of ht government!!

yknow, only one thing is more annoying than repeating oneself, and that is being requested to do so in TEXT, which is already there, but ignored, then demanded to repeated. So, here ya go, you lazy, ignorant you-know-whats.

en.wikipedia.org...

art-for-a-change.com...

Good lord your google is broken! call your service provider you poor thing.
Tell them that you can't type a sentence and get a result. That must suck.
OR, did you just not bother? OH, nevermind.
Deny ignance indeed. As always here. Sheesh.

Finally some common sense. The level of idiot propaganda in this thread will send me over the edge soon. It's very discouraging to see it in action. This control of the narrative they've been able to achieve. The whitewashing of reality. This isn't to say Russia is some knight in shinning armor but if you point out the reality of the situation, in neither a pro Russia or pro western manner, you get bombarded with non stop nonsense. How many other topics does this sort of thing happen? A lot. The last huge one was when Gaddafi was killed. We got Orwelled, in an "Oceania has always been at war with East Asia kinda way.

I seriously think the State Department has people online posting on internet forums. I also think there's a lot of stupid people who eat up the storyline being pumped out of the Pentagon. There's also a lot of right wing stooges who support IMF austerity and can't see why it's odd that Ukrainians would actually take to the streets to demand austerity.

originally posted by: dragonridr

originally posted by: YouPeople
a reply to: DJW001

I stand corrected, the opposition blocked the vote:

You are going to stand corrected again, cause you are still making stuff up hoping that it sticks.

They didn't block the vote, they blocked parliament trying to POSTPONE the ratification.

They are the opposition, they never could've had the majority vote. Are you aware that opposition parties are not in the government, hence the name "opposition"?

Their vote was not needed to ratify the deal since the government has the majority vote. What they did was try to stop the government from ratifying it.

So Yanukovych negotiated the deal on his own, but it was not ratified by the legislature, therefore it never legally went into effect.

BS, making stuff up. Where did you get that it was not ratified?

Russia even gave them the first few billions of the agreed 15 billion loan and then the coup happened.

Sure looks like making stuff up is your new MO.

No they didn't your wrong Russian deal fell through in fact it was one of the major causes of maiden. Several saw Russians offer as a trap. “I know of only one place where you can find free cheese – and that’s in a mouse-trap,” said Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

He's a right wing banker. Right wing bankers love austerity. Funny how the right wing banker gained office when the IMF had it's sights on Ukraine. Funny how he's the guy Nuland wanted in office. Just a coincidence, like the x World Bank executive who's president in Afghanistan.

"Democracy" lol

If you understood much about the IMF and what they do to populations of working people then you'd know that no sane, informed or rational people take to the streets in order to demand austerity. Unless they're right wing ideologues and fascists funded by the US State Department with years of "NGO" activity in order to "build democracy".

The only reason I halfway care isn't because I like Russia. It's because our country does this to multiple nations and I fund it with taxes. Heck, we don't even have actual democracy here in the US. The whole world is a joke. The whole thing is absolutely tainted by money and what we see here is imperialist competition between Russia and the West. I don't support US imperialism or Russian imperialism. Question is, what do you think you get out of US imperialism? What do you think you gain? Why do you defend it or deny it's even taking place?

How many times do you think the US has funded, trained and even armed opposition movements? How may times do you think the US has used fascists or religious fundamentalists to achieve geopolitical/economic strategy? What do you think USAID and NED actually do? What do you think the alphabet agencies do, or who do you think they work for? Just some red white and blue flag? "Democracy promotion"?

Who actually runs the USA? The people? Of course not, massive corporations and business interests. Spreading "liberal democracy" is in reality a neocolonialist project meant to force developing nations into the Washington Consensus ie neoliberalism.

It's not just Ukraine being targeted, although Ukraine has the added bonus of being part of the Russian containment program. Which is very real by the way. Whether it's Paul Wolfowitz or Zbigniew Brzezinski sounding the post cold war containment alarm in the 90's the beans were spilled.

Anyhow, nothing to see here, nothing at all:

a reply to: dragonridr

No they didn't your wrong Russian deal fell through in fact it was one of the major causes of maiden. Several saw Russians offer as a trap. “I know of only one place where you can find free cheese – and that’s in a mouse-trap,” said Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

Complete BS. Back up your claim.

Yes the opposition was against it duh. Problem is they had no say in it because they were NOT IN THE GOVERNMENT.

It did not fell through, Russia even made part of the payments, before the coup happened, are you denying this?

a reply to: JeanPaul

Funny... I could have sworn that you have railed against debt, and now you object to the only way debt can be honorably repaid: by living within one's means, also known as austerity. What alternative do you propose? Hyperinflation?

a reply to: JeanPaul

Why do you keep posing rhetorical questions instead of providing facts? Why does the graphic you yourself provide show that many countries actually want to join NATO? Why can you not admit to yourself that for all its flaws, western "neoliberalism" is the lesser of two evils? I'm sure you would rather live in a society where the land flows with milk and honey, and no-one has to earn their bread by the sweat of their brow. That Eden never existed, nor ever will.

You seem to believe that socialism is a viable option. There are indeed societies that embrace socialist ideals like universal health care, but they are otherwise liberal democratic republics with healthy capitalist economies. Historically, every truly socialist experiment has deteriorated into Fascism of one flavor or another. Why? Because once the State begins to provide for the people's needs, the implicit social contract empowers the State to make demands of its citizens. There is no end raisons d' état.

Mod Edit

a reply to: YouPeople

As reported in the New York Times:

“Free cheese is only found in a mousetrap,” Arseniy P. Yatsenyuk, the leader of the Fatherland coalition in Parliament, said in a speech.

and in several other publications

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

Yes so what is your point? That the opposition was against it?

a reply to: Aloysius the Gaul

That New York Times article is a good article, your link didn't work though.

www.nytimes.com...

The implications for the protest movement were not immediately clear, but Mr. Putin’s announcement, at a Kremlin meeting with Mr. Yanukovich, substantially alters the political landscape. It throws Mr. Yanukovich an economic and political lifeline that will spare him for now from negotiations with the International Monetary Fund, which was demanding significant changes to the government, judiciary and the economy in exchange for aid.

Important passage.

No free cheese indeed.

The decision to help Ukraine, without immediately demanding a commitment to join the customs union or any other evident quid pro quo, secured Russia’s continued sway and positioned Mr. Putin to further chastise Western officials for their aggressive efforts to support antigovernment protesters.

Senior Western envoys, including Victoria Nuland, an assistant secretary of state; the German foreign minister, Guido Westerwelle; and Catherine Ashton, the European Union’s foreign policy chief, have all been in Kiev in recent days and expressed support for the demonstrators. They have urged Mr. Yanukovich to listen to their demands and revive talks with Europe.

On Sunday, Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican whose strong views on what he has deemed Russian foreign policy aggression and human rights abuses draw close attention in Moscow, appeared onstage in Independence Square, where he told hundreds of thousands of demonstrators that the United States stood with them.

a reply to: YouPeople

The decision to help Ukraine, without immediately demanding a commitment to join the customs union or any other evident quid pro quo, secured Russia’s continued sway and positioned Mr. Putin to further chastise Western officials for their aggressive efforts to support antigovernment protesters.

Senior Western envoys, including Victoria Nuland, an assistant secretary of state; the German foreign minister, Guido Westerwelle; and Catherine Ashton, the European Union’s foreign policy chief, have all been in Kiev in recent days and expressed support for the demonstrators. They have urged Mr. Yanukovich to listen to their demands and revive talks with Europe.

On Sunday, Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican whose strong views on what he has deemed Russian foreign policy aggression and human rights abuses draw close attention in Moscow, appeared onstage in Independence Square, where he told hundreds of thousands of demonstrators that the United States stood with them.

Source?

And what do you think this is supposed to prove?