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How We Know Russia Shot Down MH17

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posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 04:53 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra


I also fail to understand why Russia won't support a UN tribunal.

The same reason they vetoed the UN resolutions to Libya- ize Syria, They know the deck is stacked. Besides its only too obvious outside western main stream reach that "Putin didn't do it".




posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 04:57 AM
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a reply to: paraphi


It seems to me Russia has invested so much energy in denial that any actual positive involvement is now impossible.

Love those forensics…



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 05:00 AM
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originally posted by: Xcathdra
As always readers will need to decide for themselves about the accuracy of the information / argument being presented. Its an interesting read and does a decent job of sourcing their points.


How We Know Russia Shot Down MH17


It’s been a year since Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot out of the sky, killing all 298 civilians onboard. The results of the official inquiry have yet to be released, and while the fact that this Boeing 777 was immolated has not been disputed, various theories have been floated by the Ukrainian government, the Russian government, and other interested parties as to how it was and who ultimately bears responsibility for this tragedy.

The vast majority of the evidence adds credibility to the theory that an anti-aircraft Buk missile launcher, controlled by either Russian soldiers or Russian-backed fighters and fired from a field south of the town of Snezhnoye, destroyed the commercial airliner. The Buk is an advanced weapons system capable of destroying military aircraft or even ballistic missiles at an altitude up to 82,000 feet, and so its presence on Ukraine’s battlefield was always set to change both the scope and intensity of the conflict. But it suspiciously arrived in the arsenal of the Russian-backed fighters at a time when the Ukrainian military was making rapid gains and was perhaps closing in on a military solution to the conflict.


Click link for remainder of article...

This topic is pretty much wide open for debate / discussion about the info provided. Instead of me trying to present what is in the article I leave it to the readers themselves so they can draw their own conclusion.


Interestingly enough, in 2014, Putin called for a UN investigation into the incident. In 2015 Putin states its not appropriate...


In war the first casualty is truth. According to Project Camelot a whistle blower stated that yes indeed Russia did shoot down MA17 but they had to as it had a bio weapon on board and the plane was destined to perform a 9001 style attach on a Russian city.

The flight paths published at the time clearly show MA17 veering off its normal flight path. Australia, Malaysia and Holland I think it was, all signed a non disclosure agreement at the time. It can be seen and concluded that the reason for this was to prevent this fact from ever coming to light. I'll give you one guess who has the most to gain from having this agreement in place.

Who , why and how ????

911 ring any bells?



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 05:24 AM
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Propaganda pieces do not cut it as evidence here at ATS. We now know (or a few of us do) that a Ukrainian pilot Captain Voloshin (photo here) shot down MH17, mistaking it for a Russian plane, whilst on a sortie. Read the interview with a Ukrainian military worker at the link provided. The claim was reported in the British Daily Mirror:
www.mirror.co.uk...



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 05:29 AM
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originally posted by: intrptr
The same reason they vetoed the UN resolutions to Libya- ize Syria, They know the deck is stacked.


Just to make sure you quote the historical record. Russia did not veto UN resolutions on Libya. Along with countries like Germany they abstained. There's a big difference. They have not vetoed any Resolutions on Syria - in fact, they have voted for every Resolution on Syria.

The problem with this thread is that anything that vaguely seems to suggest a Russian missile was fired on an airliner an the act may have had tacit, actual or accidental support of Russian authorities, meets with the same old reactions that end up (ultimately) blaming the West for everything!

It is becoming clear from leaks that the Dutch accident investigation - who have parts of the plane that they have been allowed to recover - and other evidence, are pointing the finger firmly at a BUK missile that was likely fired by pro Russians. This removes all these other possibilities being promoted by state owned Russia media, such as RT.com, who remain fixated on the story that the airliner being shot down by a Ukrainian fighter.

This is being variously reported in the Western press, but there's a strange quite from Russian press on this. I wonder why?

Russia needs to stop whining and join an International Tribunal, the proceedings of which would be public, as will the Dutch accident report when it is complete. If Russian have the evidence that the airliner was shot down by Ukraine, then it can be presented and reviewed. Why is this such a problem for Russia?
edit on 18/7/2015 by paraphi because: clarified point



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 06:39 AM
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For those continually hearing claims a BUK ground launched anti aircraft missile is what brought down the airliner.

The BUK is loud when it goes, the sound is audible over a wide area, the launch signature of sound and smoke trail are distinct and pronounced.

It gets your attention.

The part missing from the narrative claiming a BUK was fired, no witnesses on the ground in the area that day have stated they heard or saw a ground launched missile, at all.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 06:57 AM
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a reply to: paraphi


Just to make sure you quote the historical record. Russia did not veto UN resolutions on Libya.

I said Syria, not Libya. The historic record on UN security council vetoes by Russian and Ghina of UN resolutions to open humanitarian corridors into Syria are quite clear.


Russia and China, embittered by Security Council actions last year that led to Western military intervention in Libya and the downfall of its longtime leader, Muammar el-Qaddafi, are intent on avoiding a repeat in Syria. They have consistently objected to any resolutions concerning Syria that would impose sanctions…NY Times article

Sorry for the aside, just wanted to reveal for others the incorrect statement by member:


They have not vetoed any Resolutions on Syria - in fact, they have voted for every Resolution on Syria.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 08:33 AM
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a reply to: Azureblue

Project Camelot is hardly a bastion of truth. Most conspiracy theorists take what they say with a huge spoon of salt. MH-17's flight path was not diverted. It followed the path laid out in its flight plan. A path that had been used consistently by most airlines. There were even other planes in the area at the time. The no-fly zone was only up to 30,000 feet.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 08:39 AM
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a reply to: LostAndFound2




Article you posted is propaganda nothing more



You say that yet you post this as a source for the truth...



Here are the real facts on who US is backing

www.globalresearch.ca...


Utterly amazing.

You do understand your source there has proven long before now that they are very anti American, and very pro Russian.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 08:40 AM
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a reply to: micpsi

People are still trying to push the SU-25 angle? Even Russia trotted out the BUK manufacturers to claim it was downed by a BUK. According to the story you posted three jets were scrambled but only one returned. The rebels had made it known in the past when they downed Ukrainian aircraft. So why not this time? Then there's the fact that the separatists don't have any aircraft. So why would Ukrainian jets be scrambled with A2A misses? And finally there's the simple fact that an SU-25 doesn't have the capability to catch a 777 even when it's unloaded. Its ceiling and speed are both far below that of the 777.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 08:41 AM
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This is a good Cross Talk on MH17 . For me it is very interesting that the US didn't show us their pic's from their satellite's .One of the conclusions I have come to is that they have none .(pic's or even spy satellites ) I think all the US has is high altitude spy planes .(drones ) Think about this for a moment . Why did the US use a drown over Iran when it possibly could have used their satellite . Or why did Israel use a drone just recently over Lebanon . Ray McGovern brings us a story of a past shoot down by Russia that was spun in the MSM contrary to what really happened . The truth came out many years later but the western propaganda served it purpose at the time . That is what is going on with MH17 . It serves the propaganda element of the west to spin the story in a direction consistent with Pentagon Policy which for now is Putin/Russia bad .



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 08:56 AM
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a reply to: intrptr




For those continually hearing claims a BUK ground launched anti aircraft missile is what brought down the airliner.


Well it becomes hard to deny when a fragment of one was found around the wreckage.

www.rtlnieuws.nl...




The part missing from the narrative claiming a BUK was fired, no witnesses on the ground in the area that day have stated they heard or saw a ground launched missile, at all.


Actually how is it they found a fragment of one if it wasn't shot at the plane?

And how would one know the difference between the sounds of a BUK and something like say grad rockets if they have never heard them before this?

Also you seem to forget that there was fighting going on at the time, so not many people were out and about that day.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:07 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




This is a good Cross Talk on MH17 . For me it is very interesting that the US didn't show us their pic's from their satellite's


The US isn't obligated to show what they have as evidence in an international event such as this, especially not to those who aren't involved in the investigation...and RUssia isn't involved so they get the evidence when the rest of the world get's it.

But keep thinking they are.



It serves the propaganda element of the west to spin the story in a direction consistent with Pentagon Policy which for now is Putin/Russia bad .


No Putin brought that on himself by taking the actions he has concerning Ukraine...and before that Georgia. But of course it is just easier to blame the US for Putin's actions...too bad everyone else sees what is happening when the Putinista's can't.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:31 AM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

Well if you stick to the western narrative on who what when where and why of things then you will probably only have to accept the truth years later . What many were saying from the beginning about what happened in Kiev is being repeated now in the western MSM in that it was a coup and that there were Nazi elements then and are still there now . Sometimes it's hard to follow but do try to catch up if you are interested in the truth .

"MH-17 Mystery: A New Tonkin Gulf Case?
In 1964, the Tonkin Gulf incident was used to justify the Vietnam War although U.S. intelligence quickly knew the facts were not what the U.S. government claimed. Now, the MH-17 case is being exploited to justify a new Cold War as U.S. intelligence again is silent about what it knows, writes Robert Parry."

"By Robert Parry
July 17, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "Consortium News" - One year ago, the world experienced what could become the Tonkin Gulf incident of World War III, the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over eastern Ukraine. As with the dubious naval clash off the coast of North Vietnam in 1964, which helped launch the Vietnam War, U.S. officials quickly seized on the MH-17 crash for its emotional and propaganda appeal – and used it to ratchet up tensions against Russia.

Shocked at the thought of 298 innocent people plunging to their deaths from 33,000 feet last July 17, the world recoiled in horror, a fury that was then focused on Russian President Vladimir Putin. With Putin’s face emblazoned on magazine covers, the European Union got in line behind the U.S.-backed coup regime in Ukraine and endorsed economic sanctions to punish Russia. www.informationclearinghouse.info...



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:35 AM
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Georgia attacked and killed it's own population so Russia went in to protect them and beat the NATO trained Georgian army in 5 days with their own mediocre troops who were closest to being used quickly

You guys can't help lying to board members here but we can see it's a sham and as with the recent poll that shows USA as the greatest threat to humanity your anti Russian agenda is not working

Russia has every right to know the results and see evidence that the west may have considering the west instructed it's media to blame Putin as the plane was still smouldering and heavy sanctions have been placed on Russia

Logic says it was an accident by the Ukraine army as if it was the rebels I'm sure the west would have had the evidence to expose it.If the Ukraine by accident shot down this aircraft the west should have produced their evidence as mistakes in war zones do occur but they used this horrific situation to tarnish Russia and place financial burdens on them

All the families grieving lost ones deserve the truth,not political agendas



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:40 AM
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a reply to: micpsi




Propaganda pieces do not cut it as evidence here at ATS. We now know (or a few of us do) that a Ukrainian pilot Captain Voloshin (photo here) shot down MH17, mistaking it for a Russian plane, whilst on a sortie


And you said what about propaganda not cutting it here and you use that as some type of evidence to back your claim...really?

And he did this far into separatists territory and was not noticed by them as he did this deed and flew back to Ukraine over that same rebel held land without even being shot at...sounds good but is not even close to being true.

So now if this pilot admitted this why hasn't he been arrested and tried for those deaths...seems that would be cut and dry when someone admits to doing the deed.

Little things like that show the story your talking about is a pure lie.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 09:45 AM
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a reply to: the2ofusr1




www.informationclearinghouse.info...


Ah yes another media outlet that is no more credible than globalresearch.

Care to go for the the daily double of BS?

These same sources have shown their willingness to post anything and everything that they think makes the US look bad all the while praising Putin and what he has done against the big bad US.

SO you may want to actually look away from the pro Russian sites once in a while.



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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a reply to: Whereismypassword




Georgia attacked and killed it's own population so Russia went in to protect them and beat the NATO trained Georgian army in 5 days with their own mediocre troops who were closest to being used quickly


Georgia was not a NATO country, although they have participated in NATO campaigns NATO doesn't train Georgian troops.



You guys can't help lying to board members here but we can see it's a sham and as with the recent poll that shows USA as the greatest threat to humanity your anti Russian agenda is not working


Really your using a member generated poll on a conspiracy theory website as your evidence that backs your claim?

Seems your literally...





Russia has every right to know the results and see evidence that the west may have considering the west instructed it's media to blame Putin as the plane was still smouldering and heavy sanctions have been placed on Russia


Why do they?

Did it crash in Russia...no

Were there any Russian citizens aboard that flight...no

SO Russia deserves nothing.

Now as far as the sanctions...You do know they are in place because of Russia's involvement in Ukraine is the reason the sanctions are in place.

As for blaming Putin...who else is backing and training the separatist while sending them Russian weapons to Ukraine?

That's right nobody...so the only one left is guess who?



Logic says it was an accident by the Ukraine army as if it was the rebels I'm sure the west would have had the evidence to expose it.


Logic...really?

Okay then answer this for me...How did Ukraine get a BUK that far into separatist territory without being noticed, ahd then take the chance of being noticed shooting down a plane and then being able to leave that land unnoticed...let's hear your logic for that?

Remember who had the planes that were flying then...hint for you...it wasn't the separatists so why would Ukraine be using them against the separatists?



All the families grieving lost ones deserve the truth,not political agendas


Too bad Russia won;t let that happen...



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 10:10 AM
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a reply to: tsurfer2000h

I look for the truth where ever it is spoken . You have remained consistent on the Ukrainian deal from the get go and have only regurgitated their rhetoric . Point for that but you are only keeping alive a bunch of things that are not true and avoiding things that are true that could get us closer to the truth . Why is the CIA silent ? Why haven't the State Dept . releases anything more the Google sourced social media reports ? Russia has supposedly invaded Ukraine 20 times over the past while . Where is the official prof ? Could it be that there is none and the officials will only spout propaganda and not provide prof because they have none ?



posted on Jul, 18 2015 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: intrptr

Considering the SU-25 coudnt get up to that altitude and stay there long enough to even fire its cannon to put holes in the aircraft id say its SHRAPNEL/rods from the SAM/buks/ Fragmentation warhead. Tungsten rod penetrators most likely.

I remember russia was caught manipulating th e data on th e wiki on it,but th e manufacturer themselves said it cant get that high. ALso its SLOWER than the AIrliner as well.

Remember a tweet that was sent out bu the men in donbass saying they shot down a transport that was then deleted once they figured out it was nto a transport? smoking gun to me.



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