The conspiracy about conspiracies

a reply to: Astyanax

In your earlier post to me…

And television, we mustn't forget television.

I just completed a circumspect route back through your replies to me here and your thread closed by SO on conspiracy theories all the way round the block to here, were you claim there is no such thing, seemingly. In your avatar, "mind firmly closed", would seem to fly in the face of your ointment.

Television, after all, as you so contrarily pointed out, is the biggest conspiracy of them all. And most of main street would disagree with that.

You go right ahead and keep your door closed, it is you're prerogative. But since that can't possibly be true, I presume you are only holding someone else's agenda, assigned to vet that here.

a reply to: intrptr

I presume you are only holding someone else's agenda, assigned to vet that here.

Ah, the classic loser's ploy: 'you're a shill.' Against the T&C these days, I believe.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: intrptr

I presume you are only holding someone else's agenda, assigned to vet that here.

Ah, the classic loser's ploy: 'you're a shill.' Against the T&C these days, I believe.

Well, either that or SO's conclusion…

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Which is it?

a reply to: intrptr

No, those are by no means the only options.

Where would this Web site be if we all stopped believing in conspiracy theories?

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: intrptr

Where would this Web site be if we all stopped believing in conspiracy theories?

It only exists because conspiracies make people look for alternatives to the same old lying media.

Which brings me to you…

You're only here to troll and make a farce of any search for truth. I didn't know that before now.There are many ways to minimize and downplay conspiracies. Your approach was harder to see through at first. Thanks for letting me see you.

a reply to: intrptr

It only exists because conspiracies make people look for alternatives to the same old lying media.

You really believe in them, don't you? After ten years on this site I still find it a little hard to wrap my head around the fact that so many people do. It seems so obvious to me that the world doesn't work like that.

Why? I think it's because I understand what people are really like. But there isn't enough time and space to go into all that, and besides I doubt that I would get through to you anyway.

You're only here to troll and make a farce of any search for truth. I didn't know that before now.There are many ways to minimize and downplay conspiracies. Your approach was harder to see through at first. Thanks for letting me see you.

You found it hard to see me downplaying conspiracies? No wonder, because I have never done that. Perhaps you mean conspiracy theories; I downplay those all right. I guess you could say that someone who openly asserts that all conspiracy theories are false might be said to be downplaying them -- a bit.

And yes, I do enjoy provoking people. But what I hope to provoke them to is intelligent thought.

You are wrong to think that I am here in the service of falsehood. The truth is very much the contrary; but you are lost in the labyrinth of conspiracy theories and can't see that. I hope you find a route out of the maze one day. Good luck, mate.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

To say i'm dissapointed is an understatement. I was preparing to get my fantasies crushed by your scientific reasoning...instead...you link to a thread were you got destroyed...and by the site owner himself...and a few other members. Your only champion in that thread was Phage. No surprise there.

I'm glad you read the thread. I must say my own feelings about it are different: I feel decidedly uncrushed. Would I have linked to it if I thought it proved me wrong?

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

To say i'm dissapointed is an understatement. I was preparing to get my fantasies crushed by your scientific reasoning...instead...you link to a thread were you got destroyed...and by the site owner himself...and a few other members. Your only champion in that thread was Phage. No surprise there.

I'm glad you read the thread. I must say my own feelings about it are different: I feel decidedly uncrushed. Would I have linked to it if I thought it proved me wrong?

I appreciate you feel differently about it, as obviously I do too.

As I stated, from your thread, I understand now what you mean by "difference". As much as I gathered...you accept that conspiracies do happen...you just don't accept that "conspiracy theories" that are unproven as of this moment, are in any way valid. You claim that no conspiracy that was uncovered, was a "theory" beforehand. Thus invalidating anything that we today would call a "conspiracy theory".

I think that's pretty brave stance. You couldn't possibly know that for a fact. Since some of the conspiracies that were uncovered, happened way before the age of internet...there is no way of knowing whether some lonely guy in a basement back in the 50's had a theory about exactly the same conspiracy that was later discovered. Unless he had written a book about it...how would you know it ?

You come off of a position of having great knowledge about people's minds, like there is a record about everything that people think, or write in their private journals or share with friends or groups of people. Not everything is on the internet.

We must accept..that in all likelyhood...there are many definite conspiracies that will never be uncovered...or even heard of. Only a tiny fraction of those are ever exposed.

There is a little bit of truth in every conspiracy theory. Just because certain theory does not completely solve the entire case...it does not mean it's rubbish. Does it matter if a theory is wrong in it's conclusions or players involved, but it does conclude that there was a conspiracy...and it is later revealed as factual ?

Does it matter if I theorize that John killed Pedro and covered it up...but it was later revealed that it wasn't John, but Fred. The point is...there was a conspiracy...and people "feel it"...the specifics are not important in that context. What is important is...was there ANY conspiracy about the event in question ? Who or how or where is for the "investigators" to uncover...not for the theorists, though we all like to speculate on that.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

You claim that no conspiracy that was uncovered, was a "theory" beforehand. I think that's pretty brave stance. You couldn't possibly know that for a fact.

It depends on how you define a conspiracy theory. It also depends on the form of the theory and on the relationship of the theorizer to the supposed conspirators. I went into all this in earlier threads.

For classic conspiracy theories -- the ones that are discussed on ATS and other conspiracy Web sites -- it is perfectly possible to state with confidence that they are a priori false. There is no evidence to support them, they presuppose implausible levels of cooperation and secrecy among large groups of conspirators, and they are usually put forward by people who have no connexion with the supposed conspiracy or conspirators, but get their information from the media and the Internet. Even the so-called 'whistleblower testimonies' you read on here are not nearly credible.

You come off of a position of having great knowledge about people's minds, like there is a record about everything that people think, or write in their private journals or share with friends or groups of people. Not everything is on the internet.

It doesn't need to be. You don't learn about people by reading about them on the internet; you do it by observing and interacting with them in real life, as well as through self-knowledge that is also applicable to others. A sceptical acquaintance with psychology and history are also very useful.

It's a talent, and people possess it in varying degrees. It can be developed further through use and study. For some occupations, it is a necessity.

Among these are the following: writer, communications strategist, advertising creative director, advertising account planner, international development planning facilitator, educator, performing artist. All these are in my CV; together with some slight facility in the use of the English language, understanding people is my stock-in-trade.

Just to make it clear what kind of boasting this is, a good, intuitive understanding of human nature is also needed for the following occupations: politician, political strategist, revivalist preacher, stage magician, confidence trickster. I have never followed those occupations, I'm proud to say.

I am aware that explaining all this is a waste of time. Not all believers in conspiracy theories are solitary, isolated and socially maladroit, but it only takes half an hour or so of reading posts on ATS to realize that many site members occupy that side of the human spectrum. Such folk have a very poor understanding of human nature, including their own, and it is rarely easy for them to see what may be obvious to someone with more highly developed social and psychological intuition. They will not understand or believe me. Still, for reasons that aren't at all obvious, even to me, I feel compelled to try to help people recover from the debilitating and self-destructive vice of indulgence in conspiracy theories.

a reply to: Astyanax

For classic conspiracy theories -- the ones that are discussed on ATS and other conspiracy Web sites -- it is perfectly possible to state with confidence that they are a priori false. There is no evidence to support them, they presuppose implausible levels of cooperation and secrecy among large groups of conspirators, and they are usually put forward by people who have no connexion with the supposed conspiracy or conspirators, but get their information from the media and the Internet.

To state that "too many people would have to be in on it" is a great lie, used by the debunkers to undermine the plausibillty of a certain conspiracy. I have also explained this in a thread of mine. One fresh example of this...is supposed "intel" on Iraq WMD's. A war was initiated based on it. Today we know it was a lie...who lied ? to what purpose ? was the president in on it ? were thousands of intel people in on it ? were members of the congress in on it ?

Doubtful on all accounts...yet it was peddled, sold and delivered...and everyone at that time..believed it. No multitude of people needed to be in on it. Only a 2-3 well positioned guys actually needed to be in on it. Convince the president ( as his military advisor), and the rest don't matter. They all just follow orders based on false intel. The hierarchical chain of command and fear of losing your job does the rest. You could say they were unwittingly involved in a conspiracy...but are completely clueless and innocent.

Even the so-called 'whistleblower testimonies' you read on here are not nearly credible.

So did Snowden lie ? Did Manning lie ? Assange ? They are called "whistleblowers". Whether you want to call them credible or not...has nothing to do with whether they are telling the truth or not.

It doesn't need to be. You don't learn about people by reading about them on the internet; you do it by observing and interacting with them in real life, as well as through self-knowledge that is also applicable to others. A sceptical acquaintance with psychology and history are also very useful.

It's a talent, and people possess it in varying degrees. It can be developed further through use and study. For some occupations, it is a necessity.

So what makes you think...you have that talent sharpened more that the average guy ? For instance, reading your posts I tend to conclude that you don't understand human nature at all.

Such folk have a very poor understanding of human nature, including their own, and it is rarely easy for them to see what may be obvious to someone with more highly developed social and psychological intuition.

Here's one. People lie. E V E R Y B O D Y lies.

You believe everything that is "peer reviewed" as gospel...I would thus say...you have a poor understanding of human nature. And I believe, like yourself...that I'm the great "knower" of human nature.

debilitating and self-destructive vice of indulgence in conspiracy theories.

I indulge in the conspiracy theories...I see not how I'm self-destructive or debilitating because of it. If you care to explain ?

a reply to: Astyanax

You really believe in them, don't you? After ten years on this site I still find it a little hard to wrap my head around the fact that so many people do. It seems so obvious to me that the world doesn't work like that.

Most people believe what the main stream media tells them to. Only a few raise questions about world events. If you can;t wrap your head around one should question authority, then you are just their puppet and minion.


You must still believe in Santa. You do celebrate Christmas, decorate a tree, string lights and buy stuff… for your kids?

Why do you lie to your kids?

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Your objections were already dealt with in the earlier threads. There was no Iraq WMD conspiracy theory. There may have been a conspiracy (I'm not so sure) but no conspiracy theorist foresaw it. Similarly, Snowden's revelations did not validate any existing conspiracy theory, although they did reinforce the general paranoia of conspiracy theorists. Anyway, Snowden's didn't do his whistleblowing on ATS.

What makes me think I'm good at understanding other people? A successful, well-rewarded and well-regarded career doing the things I mentioned in an earlier post (which, as I said, are occupations that demand a good understanding of people), a generally good reputation in the society I inhabit, a wide circle of friends in which all walks of life and shades of faith and opinion are represented, and the fact that all my former lovers (including, until a recent property dispute caused friction, my ex-wife) are still my friends and are generally pleased to see me. The fact that my oldest friends are still close to me... stuff like that. Of course, you are at liberty to read whatever you like into my posts.

How does indulgence in conspiracy theories harm you? Here are three ways.

1. When you come to believe that other people are the cause of your troubles, you either give up trying to make things better for yourself or you buy an assault rifle and shoot up the local primary school.
   
   
2. When your picture of the world and how it works is based on a fantasy, you cannot plan or act effectively to get what you want from life.
   
   
3. The paranoia and misanthropy bred by dedication to conspiracy theories are socially and sexually unattractive, so people tend to shun you and it's hard to get laid.

Need more?

a reply to: intrptr

Most people believe what the main stream media tells them to. Only a few raise questions about world events. If you can;t wrap your head around one should question authority, then you are just their puppet and minion.

Nonsense. Almost nobody, excepting a few mental defectives, believes unquestioningly in what the media tells them. Everybody is concerned about world events. Stop pretending that being a conspiracy theorist is a sign of mental acuity or superiority. It is nothing of the kind. It is as old as the hills and as commonplace as the weeds.

You must still believe in Santa. You do celebrate Christmas, decorate a tree, string lights and buy stuff… for your kids?

Why do you lie to your kids?

I don't believe in Santa and I don't have any 'kids'. I do, however, celebrate Christmas, because it is fun and it brings people together. You should try it some time. It would do you good, I think.

a reply to: Astyanax

There was no Iraq WMD conspiracy theory

Nor was I claiming there was one. I was using it as an example of how conspiracies can be done by only few people knowing anything about it. It was a response to your claim "they presuppose implausible levels of cooperation and secrecy among large groups of conspirators" - they simply do not. More proof of this lies in the fact that all uncovered and proven conspiracies, included only a handful or even single person/s.

Where you fail in your understanding of human nature is, that 98 % of people are not free thinkers or remotely in the know about world affairs or even care for it. Most people just want to do their job they are paid for and go home. Such people can easily be manipulated to unknowingly participate in a conspiracy thought out by a handful of people.

Snowden's revelations did not validate any existing conspiracy theory

really ? So you claim that NSA snooping thing was a confirmed fact way before Snowden ? You do understand what a "confirmed fact" is ? There were plenty of allegations of it before Snowden...but nobody could do anything about it, because it was always in the realm of "conspiracy"...and thus could simply be ignored by the judicial system and the govt. Tell me...when did the world wide upheaval against the NSA and it's practices start ? As soon as it became public knowledge through Snowden's dislosures. And that...is a fact my friend.

What makes me think I'm good at understanding other people? A successful, well-rewarded and well-regarded career doing the things I mentioned in an earlier post (which, as I said, are occupations that demand a good understanding of people), a generally good reputation in the society I inhabit, a wide circle of friends in which all walks of life and shades of faith and opinion are represented, and the fact that all my former lovers (including, until a recent property dispute caused friction, my ex-wife) are still my friends and are generally pleased to see me. The fact that my oldest friends are still close to me... stuff like that. Of course, you are at liberty to read whatever you like into my posts.

So people like you...and that means you understand human nature ? People like puppies and cats...they also like jokers, and party makers.

1. When you come to believe that other people are the cause of your troubles, you either give up trying to make things better for yourself or you buy an assault rifle and shoot up the local primary school.

ridiculous. I entertain certain conspiracy theories. I take full responsibility for my actions. Actually...it's sort of a moto of mine. Everything in my life, starts and finishes...with me. My parents, my school, my govrnment is not to blame for circumstances of my life. The power to change my life is solely in my hands.

2. When your picture of the world and how it works is based on a fantasy, you cannot plan or act effectively to get what you want from life.

see....response to 1.

3. The paranoia and misanthropy bred by dedication to conspiracy theories are socially and sexually unattractive, so people tend to shun you and it's hard to get laid.

LOOOOOOOL. This does not even deserve a clever response. Please edit this because it makes you look like fool. I give you a little bit more credit than this.

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

Where you fail in your understanding of human nature is, that 98 % of people are not free thinkers or remotely in the know about world affairs or even care for it.

I'm sorry, my friend, but this is precisely where your understanding of people fails.

It is true that most people, most of the time, would rather follow than lead (or be a maverick). This is in due to laziness as much as it is to fear, which is also why many people are happy to have their thinking done for them. But make no mistake: nobody wants to have their opinions formed for them. People change their minds only with a great deal of resistance.

They may rely on others to justify their opinions for them, but their opinions are their own, nevertheless. Think about that.

So people like you...and that means you understand human nature ? People like puppies and cats...they also like jokers, and party makers.

I am neither a puppy, a cat, a joker or a party maker. In fact, I have a reputation for being quite an intimidating character among those who know me. Factor that into your calculations too, if you can. My point was not that people like me (though, on the whole, I would rather be loved than hated) but that I, like many other ordinary folk, live comfortably in the world because I have learnt how to understand and get on with people.

I won't bother to discuss your comments regarding Iraq WMD, etc. I've made myself clear enough, and if you can't or don't want to see it, that's your privilege.

My parents, my school, my govrnment is not to blame for circumstances of my life.

Oh, dear Lord. I'm arguing with a child. All is made clear at last.

Okay, Mario. Forget everything I've just said. Sixteen, or nineteen, or whatever it is you are, was never supposed to be as wise as sixty (well, fifty-seven). You're a smart kid, that's for sure.

Just remember this: you're welcome to think I'm full of it, but if you go on believing in conspiracy theories and don't put some effort into understanding the world the way it really is, you're headed straight down the hill to Loserville.

a reply to: Astyanax

But make no mistake: nobody wants to have their opinions formed for them.

ha ha. So media doesn't form opinions ? Everything you or 98 % of people think is constructed through deep philosophical introspective analysis ? You are a joker after all.

live comfortably in the world because I have learnt how to understand and get on with people.

So if I entertain conspiracy theories...I cant get along with people...and am an outcast ? Jesus man. What are you on...and what is this fantasy world you live in.

I won't bother to discuss your comments regarding Iraq WMD, etc. I've made myself clear enough, and if you can't or don't want to see it, that's your privilege.

sure you wont, because there is no rebuttal for what I wrote. It's a..fact.

Oh, dear Lord. I'm arguing with a child. All is made clear at last.

So I'm a child for taking responsibility for my life ? hm...wasn't your initial argument somewhat to contrary...that if I believe in CT's that I "think that other people are the cause of your troubles, you either give up trying to make things better for yourself or you buy an assault rifle and shoot up the local primary school. "

You should really pay attention to your own writing.

Okay, Mario. Forget everything I've just said. Sixteen, or nineteen, or whatever it is you are, was never supposed to be as wise as sixty (well, fifty-seven). You're a smart kid, that's for sure.

Actually...I'm 40...but thanks for the compliment. I do feel like a kid still.

a reply to: Astyanax

Nonsense. Almost nobody, excepting a few mental defectives, believes unquestioningly in what the media tells them.

For most, its all they know. The way we know its BS is that all the outlets available repeat the same things over and over.

Everybody is concerned about world events.

Their version of those events is skewed by the single sourcing of information. For most it is a quick glance from their acceptable source during a moments respite from their busy day.

a reply to: Astyanax

I do, however, celebrate Christmas, because it is fun and it brings people together.

You don't need Christmas as an excuse to get together, people who use that excuse don't really want to get together, they do it because its expected of them. Because everybody does it. Because it keeps up appearances of participation and togetherness. We love each other, after all we celebrate Christmas. I bet these people also go to church, celebrate easter and birthdays, go to circus, zoos, fairs, and Disneyland.

Thats the true definition of brain washed indoctrination. Ringing Pavlovs bell.

Christmas is the worst example of crass commercialism programmed into peoples heads.

Try again.

a reply to: Astyanax

It doesn't need to be. You don't learn about people by reading about them on the internet; you do it by observing and interacting with them in real life

is that so ?

funbox

a reply to: MarioOnTheFly

So I'm a child for taking responsibility for my life?

No, I concluded that you're a child because you spoke about your school and your parents.

Actually...I'm 40...but thanks for the compliment.

And still going to school? Goodness me.

Now for the rest of your post:

So media doesn't form opinions ?

It is used by people largely to confirm opinions they already hold. If someone doesn't know or care much about a subject, a media report might influence them, though the influence is likely to be temporary.

Forming or changing an opinion is a life-changing event, and a media report (or campaign) is rarely enough to do it. Look how hard it was to convince people that smoking was killing them.

So if I entertain conspiracy theories...I cant get along with people...and am an outcast ? Jesus man. What are you on...and what is this fantasy world you live in

Something like that. Wait and see.

If you really are forty and have been a conspiracy-theory fan for some years, I have no doubt that you've already experienced some of the effects I listed in my last post. However, you probably attribute them to some other cause; conspiracy theorists are not generally given to accurate self-reflection and analysis. If, however, you are actually still in your teens, you're in with a chance. Heed my warning before it is too late.