It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The hypocrisy of the pro-life argument

page: 6
42
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:44 PM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Right. Society is too fixated on bandaid solutions that treat the symptoms, but ignore the problem altogether. Then we tend to become super short sighted and try to fix the all the NEW problems created by the bandaid the same way. It is an infinite cycle of idiocy that gets tedious very quickly.


100 percent agree




posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:57 PM
link   
originally posted by: Krazysh0t



So all of a sudden abortion became a hot button topic on these forums with a bunch of threads appearing overnight talking about it. I'm really not sure what spurned this sudden interest, though it is likely due to the upcoming election season and politicians starting to take sides on various debate issues.


Also the news broke that Planned Parenthood was selling baby parts. That happened.



Now, obviously, the next answer I will receive is that the responsibility should be with the parents to teach this. Well that doesn't happen. OR the parent teaches the child abstinence only and the child goes on to not listen to the parent because no teenager likes abstinence.


1. So we can just pretend like asexuals don't exist now? Geez.

2. Besides which, this "kids gonna have sex" is a bunch of BS. I went through my teenage and college years without "formal" sexual education and without having sex with anyone. And I know others who did. People aren't animals, we can control ourselves.

3. Are all pro-lifers also pro-abstinance-only sex ed? (Personally, I think I'm more disturbed at the idea of a total stranger teaching someone sex-ed than I am at the idea of comprehensive sex ed.)




So it reasons that if pro-lifers were REALLY about reducing abortion rates, why are they trying to ban abortions? Clearly only the opposite outcome will result of what they desire. Shouldn't they be instead be trying to think up ways that actually WORK instead of forcing their dystopian solutions onto everyone? Where is the consistency?


Just understand that (from the pro-life view) like saying we should legalize murder to bring the murder rate down. Who knows? It might work. Should we do it?

Also, remember that correlation does not equal causation. It's possible; no, probable, that there are other factors besides abortion being illegal that are keeping the abortion rate so high in those countries. It's not like making it legal will magically make people stop having children they want to abort. It would probably work best to keep abortions illegal and promote sex ed.


These children are a burden to our welfare program and subsidized by our taxes. All to be raised into an environment where they are more likely to age out of the program because US couples are adopting overseas orphans more than local ones. Where is the consistency?


How is this inconsistent? It's bad that there are a lot of orphans. I think the pro-lifers think it's better to be an orphan than, ya know, dead.



It's funny how pro-lifers like to accuse pro-choicers of being murderers and baby killers, but can't seem to do any internal soul searching of their own to see if they have located the correct solution so that society can not only minimize abortion but also the number of unwanted children who WEREN'T aborted. It's not a zero-sum game of either/or where you can only pick one option or the other. We CAN have both. You just have to understand how reality works and that we cannot create an idealized world where you tell someone that they can't do something and they inherently listen.


The pro-lifer's argument is very consistent. Abortion is murder. Let's not make it legal to murder people. How hard is that?



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 04:05 PM
link   
a reply to: StalkerSolent




Also the news broke that Planned Parenthood was selling baby parts. That happened.


I question the timing of that story being released. It is quite obvious the video is a year old, yey it just happens to come out after a slew of other abortion articles?

It looks like public manipulation to me. The PP story wasn't what started the slew of abortion articles and topics it looks like this hot issue has been orchestrated.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 04:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Right. Society is too fixated on bandaid solutions that treat the symptoms, but ignore the problem altogether. Then we tend to become super short sighted and try to fix the all the NEW problems created by the bandaid the same way. It is an infinite cycle of idiocy that gets tedious very quickly.


For any of that to change. We would need to change the entire structure of our society. The easiest way to get control over a vast amount of people. Is to tell those people what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. That is the secret to obtaining power in our modern day society. Find a group of people and then tell them everything they want to hear. Reaffirm all their thoughts and beliefs. That is what the Democrats do. That is what the Republicans do. That is what every political party, in power, in the West, does. Then when you have power. You fight with others who have power, over the money the mathematical alchemists known as bankers, conjure forth from thin air.

Society is changing due to the rapid advancement of science and technology. But the future is not here yet. We are where we are, as a society. So for now. The abortion debate will be won by neither side. No side will be swayed from their beliefs. No solutions will be agreed upon. Does that mean we should not discuss it. Of course not. It just means I, as in me personally, and only me, because others might believe differently. Think that its a waste of energy to argue over this particular subject. Because it is nothing but emotions and feelings, logic will never sway anyone on the issue. So since I have no horse in this race and have said everything that has come up in my mind since this issue has become hot on ATS. I will shut up and let the rest of you discuss this issue.


edit on 15-7-2015 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 05:24 PM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Though, at the core, you can't argue around the fact that countries with legal abortion have lower abortion rates.


How does one go about counting the number of illegal abortions performed in their country?



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 05:39 PM
link   

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
There will never be a civil discourse on abortion as long as no one can agree on when "life" begins.

And before you even start discussing that, how about trying to get better education and birth control methods out to the masses? An IUD is extremely effective and can last 10 years. The newer Mierna ones combine hormonal birth control with a physical device.

Male birth control needs to be made available. Males need to have better options than a condom. Condoms aren't great birth control. They're better than nothing, but males deserve to have more say over their reproductive rights. If we can make a dozen medications for erectile dysfunction, we can make a reversible male birth control option.

These are underlying issues that need to be dealt with before the pro/anti abortion topic should even be discussed.


I think that we need to reconsider all 'child' based tax credits. At least limit any credits to one child per person. It, I hope would make people think more before 'creating' unwanted pregnancies in the first place. It would probably increase the number of unwanted pregnancies that end in abortion but I'm a true believer in wanted children. It's child abuse to bring an unwanted child into the world.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 05:40 PM
link   

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

Though, at the core, you can't argue around the fact that countries with legal abortion have lower abortion rates.


How does one go about counting the number of illegal abortions performed in their country?


It used to be extrapolated from numbers of women turning up at hospitals bleeding to death and the dead from back room abortions.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 06:22 PM
link   
a reply to: Agartha

Well said. Thank you.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 07:38 PM
link   

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
There will never be a civil discourse on abortion as long as no one can agree on when "life" begins.

And before you even start discussing that, how about trying to get better education and birth control methods out to the masses? An IUD is extremely effective and can last 10 years. The newer Mierna ones combine hormonal birth control with a physical device.

Male birth control needs to be made available. Males need to have better options than a condom. Condoms aren't great birth control. They're better than nothing, but males deserve to have more say over their reproductive rights. If we can make a dozen medications for erectile dysfunction, we can make a reversible male birth control option.

These are underlying issues that need to be dealt with before the pro/anti abortion topic should even be discussed.


I think that we need to reconsider all 'child' based tax credits. At least limit any credits to one child per person. It, I hope would make people think more before 'creating' unwanted pregnancies in the first place. It would probably increase the number of unwanted pregnancies that end in abortion but I'm a true believer in wanted children. It's child abuse to bring an unwanted child into the world.


So a hard working middle class family with 3 kids doesn't get reimbursed for cost of living expenses? We are a wealthy nation we can afford to help the poor and keep taxes even. You just have to cut all the waist that is of no benefit to society. There is more government grants and corporate welfare that goes as election party favors than ever will social welfare which by the way was privatized by a "liberal" president. We spend over 2 billion on podus campaigns and then complain about welfare.

I understand it should be a pathway to self sufficient living like through education, job training, urban development etc, law enforcement but the one thing the gov in the us is supposed to be for (preserving personal liberty and freedom) it utterly fails at especially so for the poor in cities.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 08:02 PM
link   
a reply to: Krazysh0t

All your objections here are side-stepping the main issue and I'm not sure you can characterize all "pro-lifers" as holding the points of view you claim they do hold. Perhaps some of the more vociferous pro-lifers tend to be fundamentalist in their religious beliefs, therefore abstinence is a thing for them. I don't deny that at all, but I do deny your characterization and generalization of pro-lifers. But that's what you folks do. You demonize anyone who is pro-life because, you know, you have rights.

Pro-life is about not killing human beings in utero. It denies the idea that "Your body is your own and nobody can tell you what to do with it" because we're not talking about YOUR body here. We're talking about the body of an unborn child.

If you rent out an apartment in your house, the tenant has certain rights. One of the tenant's rights is that just because he rented an apartment that you own does not give you the right to kill him or even evict him. He has the right of tenancy until the lease expires. You ever tried to evict someone who has done nothing wrong? That's how it works.

You signed a lease and that lease is binding for nine months. By becoming pregnant you signed that lease, and the fact that you didn't intend to get pregnant is really not the leasee's fault. It's your fault. Now you can blame the guy or blame ignorance, or blame whomever and whatever you want, but the bottom line is that you signed that lease, and that lease says you rented out your uterus to that child until term.

After that lease is up, you can do what you want, including reject that child by giving him up.

The fact that there are children without homes is not relevant.
The fact that some pro-lifers preach abstinence is not relevant.
The fact that some pro-lifers think it's a parent's responsibility to teach kids is not relevant.
NONE of these things is hypocritical. They ARE problems, of course, but they are not the issue.

The ONLY thing that is truly relevant here is that you are advocating killing an unborn child that, if you did even minutes after it was born, would result in the charge of murder in the first degree, planned with forethought.

You own your womb, but you do NOT own what is in it, and the fact that there IS something in it means you signed that lease.

Killing the tenant is not an option.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 08:54 PM
link   
.double glitch
edit on 15-7-2015 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 09:35 PM
link   


you are advocating killing an unborn child


Late term abortions, but not first trimester. An egg is not a person.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:50 PM
link   
a reply to: luthier

I said to "the hard working family with three children", "you do realize there is an overpopulation problem on the planet. Every 'US Citizen' born uses four times the planetary resources of those born in other nations.

(a rough estimate).


That's what I do, when I'm not trying to take your personal government subsidies from you.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:58 PM
link   

originally posted by: schuyler
a reply to: Krazysh0t


Pro-life is about not killing human beings in utero. It denies the idea that "Your body is your own and nobody can tell you what to do with it" because we're not talking about YOUR body here. We're talking about the body of an unborn child.




This is an absurd statement. Even religious texts talk about life begining with the first breath.

An embryo is little more then a parasite in a woman's body before viability.

You are entitled to your opinion on this issue and so am I.

I base mine on science and long tradition not on religious belief. However you are free to do as you wish - but you are not free to force your superstitions on me or others.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:42 PM
link   
a reply to: FyreByrd

Science would seem to dictate that the embryo *is* a human. This can be identified by a DNA analysis. It has human DNA which is unique from its mothers. And, it meets the criterion for life once it begins subdividing (if we found a subdividing cell on Mars, we would announce that we had found life.)

This is science. Science doesn't tell us whether abortion is right or wrong, or when it is or is not permissible to take a human life. But it does say that a human embryo is alive and human.

I'm not weighing in with my persecutive, understand, just be aware that the pro-life side is fundamentally correct when they say that abortion kills an unborn human. The root of the issue is whether or not all human life is sacred, NOT whether or not an unborn human is a human or not. The pro-choice crowd understands this; read their literature: www.prochoicewisconsin.org...

TLDR? Abortion takes a human life. Everyone more or less agrees on this, and the science is settled. The question is, does it kill a person?



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:32 AM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

How can you demand accountability for sex if the person never even properly knows of the consequences of his actions?

How does abstinence only not teach consequences? It does. Whether you agree with the method or not it still teaches consequences.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:35 AM
link   

originally posted by: FyreByrd

originally posted by: schuyler
a reply to: Krazysh0t


Pro-life is about not killing human beings in utero. It denies the idea that "Your body is your own and nobody can tell you what to do with it" because we're not talking about YOUR body here. We're talking about the body of an unborn child.




This is an absurd statement. Even religious texts talk about life begining with the first breath.

An embryo is little more then a parasite in a woman's body before viability.

You are entitled to your opinion on this issue and so am I.

I base mine on science and long tradition not on religious belief. However you are free to do as you wish - but you are not free to force your superstitions on me or others.


Parasite or not it's still human. It's like arguing it should be alright to destroy Leatherback Turtle eggs because they aren't Turtles yet.



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:39 AM
link   
a reply to: Krazysh0t

OP your argument about the poor Orphan children is flawed at it's core. Progressives logic at it's best and rooted in idealism not reality.



It is also kinda evil when you think about.......Basically you are promoting murder as a better solution than poverty. Hitler thought along these lines........The gas chambers were first used on anyone not contributing to society. This is the exact same logic path and it is flawed beyond compare. Society would be better off.......The greater good.......This is all flawed. Fun fact......Hitler loved and took inspiration from the early progressive movement in the US.
edit on 16-7-2015 by SubTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:52 AM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I've started to become more familiar with the pro-life argument and it confuses me to no end.


Have you ever thought that some pro-lifers say screw all you want but be accountable for your actions. That abortion used as a profitable business and birth control is a bad thing. That when a life is relabeled as a 'thing" lowers the value of all life. That maybe they do not want tax money to pay for people's poor choices and failures....



posted on Jul, 16 2015 @ 12:54 AM
link   
a reply to: SubTruth

That's assuming that it is murder, but you would first have to show how something without a functioning brain/heart has consciousness/is alive.




top topics



 
42
<< 3  4  5    7  8  9 >>

log in

join