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The hypocrisy of the pro-life argument

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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 02:49 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: luthier
I suppose you could say that but not really. I am against abortion and would try my best to stop the from happening on a personal level. Not legally because I am a realist and have studied anthropology and realize infanticide happens and happened all the time for various reasons.


That's why I said you sound like a pro-choice person who is just against abortion, but hey you are you and have your reasons for believing what you do. If you think that your reasoning makes you pro-life, who am I to argue?


I also understand the pro life argument I just don't believe its reasonable to legislate morality and I am libertarian (left leaning).


As a Libertarian, that's one of the reasons I don't agree with it.


I am trying to point out the leaders of the prochoice movement have also been extreme which you seem to ignore. I don't know if I need to link quotes or if you follow politics but there are a lot of mainstream pro choice politicians that want the restrictions in r v wade removed.


I'm not acknowledging the fringe ideas of the pro-choice movement because they aren't relevant to what I'm trying to accomplish here. Yes, there are people within the pro-choice movement who want to do extreme things with abortion, but at the least, they aren't being hypocritical with their beliefs. They honestly believe that abortion should be as open as possible and are trying to legislate accordingly. Their beliefs aren't conflicting with any sort of scientific research either because science still hasn't determined any point that a fetus becomes a human.

I really don't agree with those politicians, but like I said, they aren't relevant to the topic at hand.


In order to have compromise you can't alienate your opponent and your title does so. Take it from a moderate pro lifer. Or don't. But don't say lets work together if you ignore my feelings and points of view.


But I can't speak for everyone within the pro-choice movement. I can only speak for myself. I'm pretty sure that removing the restrictions on RvW and making late term abortions 100% legal isn't a mainstream pro-choice movement, and at the least it isn't something that -I- want.


Well I tried with the olive branch but I guess we can't agree.
The chairwoman of the democratic party whether to be political or just to be vague has said over and over she doesn't think there should be ANY restrictions on abortion including late term. That's not fringe that is main stream.

Again I am all about reconciliation and bringing people back together to work on actual problems that lead to the need for abortion. Number one poverty.

Actually I prefer to not be categorized as any thing for the specific reason of the nuts at clinics and the wackos wanting the ability to abort 8 month old fetuses. But if i actually am using the words as they are I am pro life.

I don't think you can realistically ask to work together with the other side if you are so bent on your own view you have to insult them. Language and tone are crucial for negotiating.




posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 02:52 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
Well I tried with the olive branch but I guess we can't agree.
The chairwoman of the democratic party whether to be political or just to be vague has said over and over she doesn't think there should be ANY restrictions on abortion including late term. That's not fringe that is main stream.

Again I am all about reconciliation and bringing people back together to work on actual problems that lead to the need for abortion. Number one poverty.

Actually I prefer to not be categorized as any thing for the specific reason of the nuts at clinics and the wackos wanting the ability to abort 8 month old fetuses. But if i actually am using the words as they are I am pro life.

I don't think you can realistically ask to work together with the other side if you are so bent on your own view you have to insult them. Language and tone are crucial for negotiating.


But I'm not trying to insult you. All I did was say that I think you sound like a pro-choice person, but you disagreed and I have thus ceded my opinion to your own personal opinion about yourself. If you read anything else into that post than that, that is your problem, not mine.

I don't really care one way or the other what you want to call yourself. I've stated several times that I'm not trying to lump you into any groups and have even recognized that you are one of the few people from the pro-life side of the argument that can argue reasonably about this topic. I've done everything I CAN to show you respect, I'm just not trying to focus on Democrats trying to legalize late term abortions because I don't see any hypocrisy there. I just see people being extreme with their beliefs, but at the end of the day, they are at least CONSISTENT with their beliefs.
edit on 15-7-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 02:56 PM
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originally posted by: grimpachi
a reply to: luthier

You seem to be pretty reasonable.

It isn't very often that I can say that on these boards.


Thank you. I am fed up with all these divisions. Most people have a common ground but are to selfish to budge these days. We definitely can't execute changes when we are fighting over tiny portions of the big picture as if there is no connection between them.

You want less abortions try compassion and love the pro life side can be frustrating. Notice I said can be. Language is very important so is respect and delivery/tone.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: luthier

Late term abortions are things I frown upon. I "think" they should only be performed when extenuating circumstances arise. Such as life-threating complications to the mother or cases of abuse or confinement. There have been a few cases of kidnap victims that were impregnated and discovered in late term.

I can't list all the examples that would qualify in my opinion, but that is something that should be addressed.
edit on 15-7-2015 by grimpachi because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:00 PM
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In my opinion, anything after 12 weeks should be very carefully evaluated by both 'mother' and doctor.

Prior to that, well, it's an embryo. Not 'viable' = could not live outside its mother's womb. I guess the thread has kind of derailed here.....
sorry, everyone.


edit on 7/15/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:02 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: luthier
Well I tried with the olive branch but I guess we can't agree.
The chairwoman of the democratic party whether to be political or just to be vague has said over and over she doesn't think there should be ANY restrictions on abortion including late term. That's not fringe that is main stream.

Again I am all about reconciliation and bringing people back together to work on actual problems that lead to the need for abortion. Number one poverty.

Actually I prefer to not be categorized as any thing for the specific reason of the nuts at clinics and the wackos wanting the ability to abort 8 month old fetuses. But if i actually am using the words as they are I am pro life.

I don't think you can realistically ask to work together with the other side if you are so bent on your own view you have to insult them. Language and tone are crucial for negotiating.


But I'm not trying to insult you. All I did was say that I think you sound like a pro-choice person, but you disagreed and I have thus ceded my opinion to your own personal opinion about yourself. If you read anything else into that post than that, that is your problem, not mine.

I don't really care one way or the other what you want to call yourself. I've stated several times that I'm not trying to lump you into any groups and have even recognized that you are one of the few people from the pro-life side of the argument that can argue reasonably about this topic. I've done everything I CAN to show you respect, I'm just not trying to focus on Democrats trying to legalize late term abortions because I don't see any hypocrisy there. I just see people being extreme with their beliefs, but at the end of the day, they are at least CONSISTENT with their beliefs.


If I consider myself pro life do you see why the title seems rude? You have been respectful to me in dialogue. I appreciate that.

Just saying don't try to say you want to work together and insult the other side. There are better ways to go about bringing people together.

Since I consider myself pro life the op title put me on the defensive. Luckily I was able to get over it and see what you were really saying. Some people who may want to work with you for the actual goal though may be offended by this type of approach in the op.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:07 PM
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originally posted by: luthier
If I consider myself pro life do you see why the title seems rude? You have been respectful to me in dialogue. I appreciate that.


The thread title is about the overall pro-life argument and not about pro-lifers in general. I'm trying to discuss the general pro-life arguments not that actual people who make it up. There IS a distinction there.


Just saying don't try to say you want to work together and insult the other side. There are better ways to go about bringing people together.


I just type out my thoughts. I can't help it if someone takes offense to something I say that wasn't meant to be offensive.


Since I consider myself pro life the op title put me on the defensive. Luckily I was able to get over it and see what you were really saying. Some people who may want to work with you for the actual goal though may be offended by this type of approach in the op.


The title is meant to get your attention. Also, keep in mind, it is WAY too late to change the title now. Even if I wanted to.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: grimpachi
a reply to: luthier

Late term abortions are things I frown upon. I "think" they should only be performed when extenuating circumstances arise. Such as life-threating complications to the mother or cases of abuse or confinement. There have been a few cases of kidnap victims that were impregnated and discovered in late term.

I can't list all the examples that would qualify in my opinion, but that is something that should be addressed.


Absolutely. I have also mentioned that. There are always situations where the average situations don't apply. I think its disgusting what happened in Nebraska I think it was where the mother died because of the 20 week ban law and no room for emergency situations or the deliberations take so long the damage is done.

I swear most people are moderate.

I was just in Columbia sc during the flag vote. There were literally two old rednecks with flags protesting and the day before maybe three. Meanwhile I saw more racial integration in thatsouthern city than liberal baltimore. The media and politics seem to play to the most outrageous people rather than the majority. I know you have to protect minority opinions but the media make it sound like everyone is one way or the other.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:09 PM
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No disrespect Krazysh0t, but this thread will go nowhere. It will just turn into a shouting match. There can be no debate on this subject. This is not a subject where logic can prevail. This is a subject that is based purely on feelings, on what people feel in their heart and soul.

Personally I am pro-choice. I think that what someone else does with their body is none of my business. If a woman wants to have an abortion that is her decision, and whoever else she wants to let in on it, whether that be family or her significant other. The woman making the choice is the one that has to live with it. If she can live with it, then the consequences are on her and not me. So it is none of my business.

Now for myself. I could never make that choice. I could never abort a baby. I would never ask my significant other to have an abortion. If she came to that decision on her own and that is what she wanted to do, without including me. I would be devastated and hurt. I would leave her. Does that make me a hypocrite for still being pro-choice, probably. But I realize that it is her choice. What she can live with. Not what I can live with. Luckily I have been careful enough to never be in that situation.

Now back to why this subject can not be debated. In the end it all comes down to murder. The pro-life people believe it is murder. They believe with all their heart and soul that abortion=murder. That when you abort a baby, you are killing an innocent life that is full of infinite potential. Now the pro-choice people can steer the argument towards other things. Or argue about when life begins. But in the end it does not matter. You might not believe that abortion is murder, but they do. They will always believe the way they do. How a person feels about the subject in their hearts, is what this is about. Not logic and facts. No matter what aces you have up your sleeve. No matter what science you have stating a fetus is not a human until....The fact is in their hearts, the pro-life people will always see it as murder.

Heck, even I feel, having an abortion means you are killing a baby. Nothing that anyone says will change how I feel. But my mind tells me its none of my business when someone has an abortion. Because it is not hurting me, and there may be reasons that I know nothing about, that caused a person to come to the decision they did. My mind also tells me that a society in the stage that we are in, needs to have legalized abortion. We have a population that does not want to be responsible. Since we have a population that does not want to be responsible and no realistic way to make them be responsible. We need a legal way to get rid of unwanted pregnancies. Otherwise an already huge global population would be even bigger.

How do I rationalize the conflict between my heart and mind. My heart wants to believe in good and that a higher power will come and solve all our problems. My mind knows that drastic things have to be done to insure that humanity survives and thrives. So again how do I rationalize the conflict between my heart and mind. I don't. I also don't sleep at night. Which makes me a hypocrite with too much time on his hands. Such is the pain of being able to see both sides of any conflict.





posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:09 PM
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.
edit on 15-7-2015 by luthier because: double



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:14 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko


It's not anyone's fault ... except maybe liberals


Wow. If this thread wasn't already in the Mudpit, I would SO report you for political trolling.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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Nicely said exctacy
edit on 15-7-2015 by luthier because: glitch



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:17 PM
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a reply to: karmicecstasy

But see, I GET that. And I'm trying to show them that since they believe abortion is murder, they should desire to actually implement policies that actually REDUCE abortions not kneejerk bans that have been proven to have the exact opposite effect. Sometimes, in order to accomplish the goal you desire, you have to acknowledge things that make you uncomfortable. This is one of those situations. The pro-life crowd will never accomplish their goal of eliminating abortions by making it illegal and they are only doing the equivalent of peeing in the wind for trying.
edit on 15-7-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:21 PM
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Get in a car crash and kill a pregnant mother and her unborn child, two counts of involuntary manslaughter.

Outright kill a pregnant mother and her unborn child, two counts of murder.

Bacteria found on another planet, it's called life.

But ending a life that's clearly already begun (formed, nervous system, hearbeat, etc.) somehow isn't looked at the same way....odd.
edit on 15-7-2015 by BlackboxInquiry because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:22 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t


Sometimes, in order to accomplish the goal you desire, you have to acknowledge things that make you uncomfortable. This is one of those situations. The pro-life crowd will never accomplish their goal of eliminating abortions by making it illegal and they are only doing the equivalent of peeing in the wind for trying.

Yep!
Just like the analogy of people drowning in a river.....one can stand on the river-bank and pull them out, and send them on their way (tertiary intervention) --- OR, one can pull them out, dry them off, offer them food and a blanket, and give them an education......(secondary intervention)

OR -- after THAT'S done - one can go to the bridge, and find the people throwing them off of it to begin with!!!! (Primary Intervention)

sigh

Solve the problem - don't 'treat the symptoms'!!!!
edit on 7/15/2015 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:24 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

I know you understand and I know what you were trying to do. But your thought process is logical. I was trying to say this is not a subject where logic prevails. Its all about feelings and belief, not solutions when it comes to being pro-life.

edit on 15-7-2015 by karmicecstasy because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: karmicecstasy

Yea, that is a good point. Too many emotions are attached to this issue... I just wish people could learn to separate their emotions from the issues they truly cared about so they can properly determine the BEST solutions to fix the problem.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:33 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Right. Society is too fixated on bandaid solutions that treat the symptoms, but ignore the problem altogether. Then we tend to become super short sighted and try to fix the all the NEW problems created by the bandaid the same way. It is an infinite cycle of idiocy that gets tedious very quickly.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:35 PM
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The abortion debate has no place on ATS.

Remember when it used to be a conspiracy theory site?

The biggest hypocracy of the pro life crowd is that they say "all life is precious" and then most of them speak out about how they support the death penalty.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 03:43 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: karmicecstasy

But see, I GET that. And I'm trying to show them that since they believe abortion is murder, they should desire to actually implement policies that actually REDUCE abortions not kneejerk bans that have been proven to have the exact opposite effect. Sometimes, in order to accomplish the goal you desire, you have to acknowledge things that make you uncomfortable. This is one of those situations. The pro-life crowd will never accomplish their goal of eliminating abortions by making it illegal and they are only doing the equivalent of peeing in the wind for trying.


Check out Ron Paul's stance. He is prolife but understands you can't legislate morality and the morality of society is what changes the amount of abortions. Its not how I feel but is another mouth piece pro lifer who knows laws are not the way to handle the situation.

I feel abortion is related from the lack social structure and laxk of education caused by the fact the two major parties divide the population so they can't solve their own problems. Then come in trying to play the savior after they created the mess.

When was the last time we even discussed poverty in an election year or any other wage gap problem. We have idiots saying we should work longer hours knowing full well there are less jobs available and will continue this way as automation becomes more and more engrained in society to keep the cost of living and inflation in check. So we again push off the problem of what do we do with the population. We are just creating a hunger games situation by not addressing the issues. I think where we agree is bow to lower the rate.

It may be better to make an op that says "the real way to lower abortions by a pro choice" or something like that to try and make a solution to the problem.



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