Occasional dissolution of the universe and the Mothership

Seemingly one of the occupational hazards of living in the Universe is that it occasionally dissolves and at which point it is necessary to board a Mothership of some sorts and pass safely through into the next, i'm going to take a look here at the Indian take on this.

When the universe is dissolved in that ocean, a large ship, sent by me, shall come to thee. Taking with thee the plants and various seeds, surrounded by the seven sages and attended by all existences, thou shalt embark on the great ship, and shalt without alarm move over the one dark ocean

Nothing then to be particularly alarmed about as long as one boards that great ship, of course this is the reason we have flood narratives and the Indians are particularly interesting and perhaps more influential than realized with regards to the Mesopotamian versions, a key player in these is the Fish Matsya as an incarnation of Vishnu.

A flood will carry away all these creatures: from that I will save thee !' 'How am I to rear thee ?' It said, 'As long as we are small, there is great destruction for us : fish devours fish. Thou wilt first keep me in a jar. When I outgrow that, thou wilt dig a pit and keep me in it. When I outgrow that, thou wilt take me down to the sea, for then I shall be beyond destruction.' It soon became a ghasha (a large fish) ; for that grows largest of all fish.

Thereupon it said, ' In such and such a year that flood will come. Thou shalt then attend to me by preparing a ship ; and when the flood has risen thou shalt enter into the ship, and I will save thee from it.'

The subplot is the same as for A Fish out of water which is one of my favourite stories and i called my goldfish Otto as a result though he never grew so large.

Once as, in his hermitage, Manu offered the oblation to the Manes, there fell upon his hands, along with some water, a S'aphari fish (a carp), which the kind-hearted king perceiving, strove to preserve in his water-jar. In one day and night the fish grew to the size of sixteen fingers, and cried, ' Preserve me, preserve me.'

Manu then took and threw him into a large pitcher, where in one night he increased three cubits, and again cried, with the voice of one distressed, to the son of Vivasvat, ' Preserve me, preserve me, I have sought refuge with thee.'

But anyway the point seems to be that salvation seems to be ever at hand one needs to nurture it and allow it to grow, so the development of the fish can be an allegory for faith, bt i also think there was more involved.

When he had been thrown into the ocean he said to Manu : ' Great lord, thou hast in every way preserved me : now hear from me what thou must do when the time arrives. Soon shall all these terrestrial objects, both fixed and moving, be dissolved.

The period dreadful for the universe, moving and fixed, has come. Make for thyself a strong ship, with a cable attached ; embark in it with the seven sages, and stow in it, carefully preserved and assorted, all the seeds which have been described of old by Brahmanas.

When embarked in the ship, look out for me : I shall come recognizable by my horn. So shalt thou do ; I greet thee and depart. These great waters cannot be crossed over without me.

The role of the fish is essentialy to give the ship of Manu a tow, get him were he needs to go, that the fish can navigate the dark waters. Were there is overlap with Sumerian tradition is that the seven sages also safely pass through the dissolution and ante-diluvian knowledge is preserved;

There appeared a golden Fish, a million yojanas long, with one horn, to which Manu attached the ship, and heard from the Fish the Matsya Purana, which takes away sin, together with the Veda. Kesava then slew the Danava Hayagriva who had snatched away the Vedas, and preserved its mantras and other portions."

Were it gets interesting is that there is an Indian tribe claims descent from the fish the Meenas, their name is derived from Meen, the Sanskrit word for fish, and the Meenas claim descent from the Matsya avatar, in the same manner that the Apkallu sages of Sumeria and their descendants related to the fish.

In Sumerian tradition there is no giant fish as such but the Apkallu are sent to Earth from the waters of the Abzu by Enki, and the star of Enki is the Fish star Fomalhaut as i looked at here in The Place of Origin

So previously then i have looked at the Fish as the marker for extra-terrestrail contact of sorts emerging from the Abzu and that the cult of the Fish people i looked at here related to such beliefs.



If one takes the fish then in the Manu narrative as that same marker then it would be suggested the Fish took refuge with him and he nurtured it to the extent it grew very large, that ultimately the fish would be the means to salvation, and if one compares that to suggestions of an ancient alien cult that had humble beginnings long ago and grew to such enormous size that it became as the whale in the room nobody was seeing but was somehow expected to lead the way into a brave new world, then perhaps deeper insight can be gleaned from the tradition, Matsya and the breakaway civilization of the fish people.

Ancient Indian flood stories

I didnt read it all, but from what i gathered, is it possible this is the Indian version of Noah's Ark?

a reply to: macenroe82

Of course the Hebrew narrative was largely sourced from Mesopotamian tradition, i'm more interested here in the relationship of Indian flood narratives with regards to a common cultic interest they had with Sumeria with regards to Fish people and the Flood narrative as the basis for nurturing a breakaway civilization, through religion.

Im at work and heading underground for a few hours, when i get back to surface i will read it in full to get a better understanding

a reply to: Kantzveldt

a large ship, sent by me, shall come to thee. Taking with thee the plants and various seeds…

---

…thou shalt embark on the great ship, and shalt without alarm move over the one dark ocean.

How else did we get here? Been saying it forever.

The seed banks have a purpose,

The ark stories are analogous to the Interstellar arks that traverse the cosmos, terraforming planets, sowing them with life. One day, harvesting the garden, too. But thats akin to the knowledge of good and evil we aren't supposed to know about.

Are you going to be the wheat or the chaff, burn up in the sun or carry on?

a reply to: intrptr

So you liken it to the narrative of Jupiter ascending ? (It came out this year)

Your idea and that movie have quite a few correlations.

Either ways it's interesting stuff, being that the cult of the fish was always taught to me to be a symbol of Christ and/or Christianity.

a reply to: threeeyesopen

So you liken it to the narrative of Jupiter ascending ? (It came out this year)

Haven't seen it.

I think all allegory (no matter how embellished or misinterpreted), leads back to the truth.

I think the hand me down tales were made up by (or for) people that had little understanding of science and tech like we do today.

ETA: the battle for information is between those that want to remain in the past and those that want to update their awareness.

a reply to: intrptr


It is interesting that the Indian accounts lend themselves to how to move on even if the very world should end and the finding of a new home in the depths of the Cosmic ocean, equally with the tradition of the fish that this idea is something you need to nurture and allow to grow as it will be your guide to salvation, in that sense the flood narratives provide a good basis for seeing things in terms of the bigger picture and the need for adaptability, and as a basis for all faith.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

If you ever wanted to orate about the
"firmament above", the assumption about
vast cosmic oceans, the inferences concerning
blue skinned cosmic deities, generally with
nautical iconology I would be interested.

Kev

a reply to: Kantzveldt

…in that sense the flood narratives provide a good basis for seeing things in terms of the bigger picture and the need for adaptability,

The world isn't flat anymore…

link to images

ETA: the Universe that is dissolving is the old one we have been taught, constantly updating now, ever revealing further and further in real space time and in our minds. There are no barriers out there.

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Inside every fish person is a blue skinned Deity...all i know.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Thanks for the confirmation.

Kev

I wonder if the allegory your presenting about this fish about being some kind of beacon or guide, has been intentionally demonized by the Hebrew mythologies or interpretations, aka...The Leviathan(which supposedly means whale in Hebrew) due to how the fish seems kind of messianic in the Indian versions portrayal, where it has horns as well as a supposed illuminating body and eyes as well.


I've never seen a fish pour it out like it on them...

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Well, if you wanted to elaborate on that I would be interested, as I can't imagine how it would fit into your 'cosmological' insights (as I've read them, which may perhaps not be entirely accurate in understanding)...

a reply to: Specimen
I think it's fair to say that the "outgoing deities"
of conquered and suppressed faiths become
the demons and devils of the new faith.

The examples are legion.

Pan - the devil
Baal - a demon
Isis - the queen of heaven - Lillith

Kev

a reply to: lostgirl

I'm not saying its 'real'. I was simply
bringing up a fine point of comparative
mythology.

I'm not an expert... I just studied
ancient shamanic Hindu Shaivism
for a while when I was studying
the intricies of Kundalini yoga
and plasma metaphysics.

Kev

a reply to: Kantzveldt

The nurturing and preserving of the fish as a metaphor for the nurturing and preserving of 'faith' is an intriguing idea to me...

It seems to imply that at the time of the dissolving of the universe, it is faith (something which does in fact wither and die without sufficient nurturing) that "navigates" us through "the dark waters"..

a reply to: KellyPrettyBear

Indeed, almost like spiritual trophy of sorts...And yet, its seems like Judaism or Christianity is an assimilation of them, taking what would be wisdom or advice, and making it, its own perceived wisdom.

Almost like an evolving, motivational war machine, till Satan comes and tests their metal as well as faith...Allegory wise anyways.

a reply to: lostgirl

Yes that's true, it always seems that personal faith involving an individual passing through to a world beyond after their death is bound up with the same metaphors and allegories as entire worlds, which is not so surprising if they, the righteous, are considered to rise en masse in a world transformed. were the old ways are dissolved.


a reply to: Specimen

I don't know, Jonah being swallowed by the whale and resurrected or more properly reguritated after three days is an allegory of faith and would seem to owe everything to a common source with the Indian fish mythos and that became also a Christian insight.

In that scenario the giant fish or whale is representative of Divine agency and the inevitability of fate, horns generally related to expression of Divine power at the most rudimentary and archetypal level.

a reply to: Kantzveldt

Well, I don't see 'faith' as necessarily being 'about' the after-life...
and definitely nothing to do with the concept of only the "righteous", whoever they may be 'inheriting' a transformed world.

I was thinking more in terms of the metaphor of the fish and faith and whether it implies that in the case of "dissolution of the universe", faith might be needed to work as the force or energy which draws (pulls, carries, tows) the people thru the "dark waters" to the new universe...