The Elephant in The Room - The Culture of Minority Violence

a reply to: rexsblues

It's not that the minorities are inherently more violent, it's that socioeconomic status plays a huge role, and most minorities in the US happen to be at the bottom of the SES rankings.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
Reldra,

So, what do you think is the percentage of blacks in jail that were "profiled" by the police?

Of those, what percentage do you think were falsely accused and convicted of crimes?

I don't know. It would be similar to the amount of people who identify as caucasion, I imagine.

a reply to: Phage

If all things were equal then yes, a proportionate number of whites would be incarcerated.
But all things are not equal, most blacks are living at or below the poverty line, in low income neighborhoods.
We all know that most of these areas are crime heavy, at least more so than upper class neighborhoods.

As I said previously, I won't argue that the police profile blacks more than they do whites.
The initial police contact with them may often come from profiling, but ending up in prison is usually the result of a crime that was actually commited. Drug possession, illegal firearm, etc, etc..

a reply to: reldra

So you argue that blacks are incarcerated more because of racial profiling by police officers, yet you have no statistics to back up your claim.

As such, how can you sit here and say the reason that more blacks are in prison is due to racial profiling?

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
Reldra,

So, what do you think is the percentage of blacks in jail that were "profiled" by the police?

Of those, what percentage do you think were falsely accused and convicted of crimes?

What percent of those convicted do you think got an inadequate legal defense? 94% of prisoners are there on plea bargains rather than being found guilty in court. The lawyers the poor get push pleas over everything else because they take the least work, and those pleas are often jail time.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: reldra

So you argue that blacks are incarcerated more because of racial profiling by police officers, yet you have no statistics to back up your claim.

As such, how can you sit here and say the reason that more blacks are in prison is due to racial profiling?

The police don't release those statistics. Though in regard to ''stop and frisk' in New York City, it was found that more young black men were stopped and frisked than actually live in the city, so many were 'stopped and frisked' more than one time. I t was found to be profiling, so the practice has stopped. I wonder why?

a reply to: ShadowLink

The initial police contact with them may often come from profiling, but ending up in prison is usually the result of a crime that was actually commited.

Are you sure? How can you be?
If a non-black who is not detained/arrested has committed a crime, would that not affect that "statistic?" Is it not possible that non-blacks just get away with it more often because they are not profiled?

a reply to: Aazadan

I don't know the numbers.

That said, if they plead to a lesser included offense there was obviously sufficient evidence to convict on the original charge so....

a reply to: reldra

Oh, I am not saying profiling doesn't occur. I never say never.

That said, I don't think racial profiling as a causation for the black incarceration rates is the issue.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't know the numbers.

That said, if they plead to a lesser included offense there was obviously sufficient evidence to convict on the original charge so....

That is not correct. Often public defenders will push a defendant to plead to a lesser crime to avoid a trial. The public defender A) Doesn't want to spend the time on a trial and B) there is a chance one will lose at trial even if the person is innocent.
This is a well known part of our justice system.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: reldra

Oh, I am not saying profiling doesn't occur. I never say never.

That said, I don't think racial profiling as a causation for the black incarceration rates is the issue.

It is quite a lot of the issue.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't know the numbers.

That said, if they plead to a lesser included offense there was obviously sufficient evidence to convict on the original charge so....

Incorrect. Original charges often times over reach, that way the prosecutor can negotiate in the plea. What ends up happening is the prosecutor will charge someone with a crime that carries 20-life. The public defender will make a deal and get the person 3 years prison for a lesser charge. The merit and evidence for the original charge is never questioned, it's merely the prosecutors word. At this point the person admits guilt to everything the prosecutor says and gets the 3 year charge. None of it is ever challenged in court, and since it never hit court there is no appeal.

These days prosecutors have about a 40% chance of proving their case. That means that if you say no to a plea you have a 40% chance at 20-30 years, and a 60% chance at going free. If you instead take a 3 year plea you get a 100% chance for the 3 years. Defense attorneys love this because if everything goes to trial their clients average sentence for these crimes will be 18 years. But with the plea they can instead claim 3 years. At the same time the prosecutor, despite only winning 40% of the time in the courtroom, gets a 95%+ conviction rate.

The evidence in the case is completely irrelevant, there is no contesting of any evidence because the system forces you to admit guilt without contesting the legal record at all.

a reply to: Phage

No, I'm not sure cause it's impossible to be.

Can you tell me how many blacks are profiled?
How many whites get away with crime cause they weren't profiled?
How many blacks or whites are in jail cause of false charges?
We can ask these questions all day and no one will have a factual answer to them.

And yes it's possible that non-blacks may get away with it more often cause they are not profiled.

originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: Aazadan

I don't know the numbers.

That said, if they plead to a lesser included offense there was obviously sufficient evidence to convict on the original charge so....

Incorrect. Original charges often times over reach, that way the prosecutor can negotiate in the plea. What ends up happening is the prosecutor will charge someone with a crime that carries 20-life. The public defender will make a deal and get the person 3 years prison for a lesser charge. The merit and evidence for the original charge is never questioned, it's merely the prosecutors word. At this point the person admits guilt to everything the prosecutor says and gets the 3 year charge. None of it is ever challenged in court, and since it never hit court there is no appeal.

These days prosecutors have about a 40% chance of proving their case. That means that if you say no to a plea you have a 40% chance at 20-30 years, and a 60% chance at going free. If you instead take a 3 year plea you get a 100% chance for the 3 years. Defense attorneys love this because if everything goes to trial their clients average sentence for these crimes will be 18 years. But with the plea they can instead claim 3 years. At the same time the prosecutor, despite only winning 40% of the time in the courtroom, gets a 95%+ conviction rate.

The evidence in the case is completely irrelevant, there is no contesting of any evidence because the system forces you to admit guilt without contesting the legal record at all.

Absolutely. That is a succinct description of how the justice system works.

a reply to: ShadowLink

No, I'm not sure cause it's impossible to be.

Yes, it is a tricky situation.

Can you tell me how many blacks are profiled?

Based on the definition of profiling (not to be confused with eyewitness descriptions), all of them.

And yes it's possible that non-blacks may get away with it more often cause they are not profiled.

Something to ponder.

Since we all know now...the graph presented in the OP is correct. However how the graph gets to that state is horrible.
The 'elephant in the room' is racial profiling and how our justice system works. Both are not good.

a reply to: Aazadan

What you speak of is an issue with the judicial system, not law enforcement.

As an officer I only charge the suspect with what the probable cause allows me too.

For example; if a person punches another person and there is little to no injury I charge them with battery. I don't charge them with attempted murder.

What the prosecutor does is out of my (law enforcement's) hands.

originally posted by: TorqueyThePig
a reply to: Aazadan

What you speak of is an issue with the judicial system, not law enforcement.

As an officer I only charge the suspect with what the probable cause allows me too.

For example; if a person punches another person and there is little to no injury I charge them with battery. I don't charge them with attempted murder.

What the prosecutor does is out of my (law enforcement's) hands.

You are one of the good guys then. Do you not see the posse comitatus forum? Law enforcement has gotten out of control and it makes normal police look bad. Like the NYC police that 'stopped and frisked' every young black man in the city more than once in a 1 year period. Doesn't that seem odd to you?

a reply to: reldra

Sorry, I don't judge an entire group of unique individuals by the actions of some of its members, regardless of what appears on an ATS forum.

a reply to: reldra Well it seems more than odd to me. I am retiring for the night.