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Two Questions for Transgender people

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posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 08:38 PM
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originally posted by: imod02
People, pissing war not good


You must have missed the one from yesterday then? The sorority of "sisters" was sent down like a sinking ship by petty name calling and belittlement. Still have a bad taste in my mouth because of it.

Yes! Coffee now, please.
edit on Wed Jul 15th 2015 by EKron because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 08:44 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar




So why stop with transgender people?

It shouldn't. Common courtesy and caring for the well being of others shouldn't stop just with transgender people.



Why shouldn't everyone have to disclose everything private about themselves upon first meeting?

They should , if it can effect the well being of the other person.

The fact of the matter is that you are aware that their are people that could have serious psychological effects from finding out the truth. The fact whether they should be effected by the truth is, irrelevant.

What is important is that you are aware that this could effect them psychologically and are choosing the irresponsible route and selfish route to not care about their consequences.

I have no problem with trans gender people as long as they are happy, happiness is all I wish for ALL people as long as they don't hurt other.

However, whether you are transgender or not , knowingly hiding something from someone else that could negatively impact them with serious consequences is a crappy thing to do, period.

Please note and to clarify, I'm only talking about disclosing the truth if its going to get sexually intimate.



If you don't see how this is discriminatory sorry.

If you don't see the hypocrisy in wanting people to care for your well being while you could care less for their well being , than I feel sorry for you and the other person.

Since when has truth, respect, and caring for the well being of your partner become a bad thing? Why should transgender people be exempt from it.
edit on 32731America/ChicagoWed, 15 Jul 2015 21:32:35 -0500000000p3142 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 08:49 PM
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originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: imod02
People, pissing war not good


You must have missed the one from yesterday then? The sorority of "sisters" was sent down like a sinking ship by petty name calling and belittlement. Still have a bad taste in my mouth because of it.

Yes! Coffee now, please.


We could get together privately and discuss maybe some common ground between us if you like. I'm totally open to forgiveness and new beginnings with all as long as they too are receptive. I have BEEN calling for this in private to no avail.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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originally posted by: imod02
a reply to: JadeStar

Can i join you lot, coffee seems good now


Sure you can. This iced strawberry frappuccino is delicious since it's so hot here.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

Actually, it might do a little more with self-preservation. Not every transphobe like you will utter "gross!" and walk out of the room. Some will just get violent for the heck of it, even if sex hasn't happened yet. And I'm confident enough in my sexuality to state that I find non-ops like Princess just as attractive as other women. So there's no insecurities here, victim blamer.

Great Cthulhu, this thread became a wreck. I'll have some of that coffee now.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 09:44 PM
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My mother once told me that there were women in my family on my mother's side who during segregation passed as white. No one ever asked if they were.

And if they had been asked they probably would have said they were not. However they worked jobs which were only reserved at that time for white women. Had their mixed ethnicity been known they would have been fired.

Some of them had partners who were white and didn't know.

Had they been outed or had they outed themselves as being of mixed african-european ethnicity they would have been seen as deceptive, liars, morally degenerate and their actions reprehensible and deceptive. And the people who would have cast this judgement would have been seen as honorable and honest, righteous and good.

"I mean why did they lie about THEIR RACE? Why wouldn't they have said they were NEGROS. They have NEGRO blood right? So what if no one asked them! Lying by OMISSION is still LYING!"

Those would have been the cries of the day from those whose minds could not fathom that the women who passed as white were as much white as they were anything else in their genome.

Those women might have even have been the targets of physical violence by groups of like minded folks like the KKK.

Why? Because people who were not white and specifically people with african ethnicity were seen as "less than" or subhuman. And "no white man would want to be 'fooled' into bedding down with a 'high yella' (insert n-word)"

Some people considered "race mixing" evil.

Interracial people born of such unions were considered "un-natural" or even "an abomination in the eyes of God".

Today we accept that all people regardless of skin color and ethnicity should be viewed as equals. We know that all of us are a mixture of ethnicities genetically so we carry a little of a lot of people who on the surface look differently than us around with us.

Similarly we know that all men and women started out as female before they were born and that the process to masculinize the brain and body of an embryo is not always 100 percent.

So, someday. Hopefully not long from now, people will understand that ALL women, regardless of whether they were born with XX or XXY or XY chromosomes are women.

When that day comes the only people who will have these hang ups about women like me will be like those few people who still care and absolutely need to know "what race someone is" before climbing into bed.

Being singled out as an already small demographic within a small demographic for "hiding" something that really should be of no more consequence than having other corrective surgery such as that to fix cleft palate is discriminatory because it places a higher value on the guy's feelings which are based on ignorance than the woman's feelings which are based on scientific facts (such as the transgender woman's brain being identical to that of women born normally).

My personal policy has always been to disclose my backstory fairly early. However in a less ignorant, more enlightened world, my backstory would have no more consequence than if a woman had breast augmentation.

i long for the day when it none of this matters. perhaps replaced by fears of whether the woman some guy slept with was actually human.

I feel we will get there. Someday i or girls and women like me won't be seen as "less than" by guys like Domo. The arrow of history points in that direction and I've always been full of hope.

I hope i can leave now without someone saying i'm running away from debate.

i just don't think that my femininity should be up for debate anymore. Nor should it ever have been.

And those on the right side of history understand that.
edit on 15-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)

edit on 15-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 09:55 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: interupt42

Actually, it might do a little more with self-preservation. Not every transphobe like you will utter "gross!" and walk out of the room. Some will just get violent for the heck of it, even if sex hasn't happened yet. And I'm confident enough in my sexuality to state that I find non-ops like Princess just as attractive as other women. So there's no insecurities here, victim blamer.

Great Cthulhu, this thread became a wreck. I'll have some of that coffee now.


Come on up the I-5 and we can have it for real.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 09:57 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

On that thought, I actually left you a message about something like that on Gmail.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 09:59 PM
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OK first off I totally believe in being honest...
Maybe the trans-women should never disclose anything because they
are a true woman..& maybe they just need to disclose they are sterile.

The physical sexual part would be he same....

They are a true woman...only difference they cannot procreate
as many "heterosexuals" cannot either.

And same with the other side ...I apologize that I did not include
that side since much attention being focused here...


Sorry in me opinion a women is a woman...even after reassignment...
So what the big deal?

Cheers
Ektar



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:01 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: interupt42

Actually, it might do a little more with self-preservation. Not every transphobe like you will utter "gross!" and walk out of the room. Some will just get violent for the heck of it, even if sex hasn't happened yet. And I'm confident enough in my sexuality to state that I find non-ops like Princess just as attractive as other women. So there's no insecurities here, victim blamer.

Great Cthulhu, this thread became a wreck. I'll have some of that coffee now.


Again no substance in your post but personal attack and defensiveness and trying to change the argument so your little word doesn't crumble apart.

What I said applies to everyone and not just transgender and even noted that in my post.



whether you are transgender or not , knowingly hiding something from someone else that could negatively impact them with serious consequences is a crappy thing to do, period.


Transgender or not, someone wanting people to care for their well being ,while they could care less for the well being of others is a selfish irresponsible individual.

You are more than aware that some people right or wrong, could have serious psychological problems finding out the truth after intimidate sexual contact. Yet ,you say screw them its their problem, but then you want them to care for your well being.

edit on 02731America/ChicagoWed, 15 Jul 2015 22:02:29 -0500000000p3142 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:03 PM
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a reply to: solarjetman

You should know that you currently run the risk with every apparently-a-woman that you date that she may suddenly tell you that she is actually a female-to-male Transgender person and so has always had the mind of a man and will publicly transition so that everyone will see her as the man she is.

Transgender people are estimated at between 3% and maybe over 10% of all people (some figures from some countries suggest maybe up to 20%!). So there's a chance that you already have dated someone who was Transgender. What upsets you more, that someone you dated might have been born with a girls brain and always was a girl on the inside but may have had their body changed so it matched who they really were or that they were born with a girls body but was a guy on the inside the whole time? Think carefully about that. It's not all male-to-female, Transgender also includes Female to Male.

Of course maybe 1 in 100 babies are Intersex (no-one really knows how many there are), and some types of Intersex can only be found through expensive tests. So some of the girls you've dated might have been born a girl but with male XY DNA (Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome) or they might even be made out of the cells from two eggs mixed together when the baby formed so all through their body there could be a mix of XX female cells and XY male cells (XX/XY Mosaic Chimera). So if finding out that your partner was Intersex would upset you tool you'll need to pay for a lot of expensive medical tests, because they won't know and you won't know till they are done!

Of course Transgender and Intersex people can have any sexuality.

As for question 2, sure that's possible in some cases but we already found the Transgender Gene (back in 2008!) and Transgender brain differences so most cases, and even most where the person is still closeted and keeping being Transgender a secret and suffering the psychological harm from doing so, will be neurologically Trans.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:06 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

That's because it is your problem. You have these little psychological penis-fear hangups where you're afraid that you'll somehow "catch the gay" by having sex with a transgendered woman. You're attempting to justify small-minded, ignorant HATE. It is not selfish to want to live my life in peaceful anonymity without people like you beating me down.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:31 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

Serious psychological problems?
Hmm.. well the majority of homophobes (over 80%) are repressed homosexuals and bisexuals, we know that from studies which hooked them up to devices that monitored their physical sexual arousal and showed them erotic images. It wasn't just testing that one thing, but was part of a larger study on human reaction to sexual images. The studies biggest finding was that women are even if they don't realise it, aroused by erotic images, but finding that most homophobes were strongly aroused by homoerotic images was found, and multiple follow-up studies have confirmed this.

So they wouldn't suffer a serious psychological problem instead they would have their pre-existing serious psychological problem, their harmfully repressed sexuality, brought to the surface. This might be painful for them but would likely help them heal their existing psychological problem.

Now if Transphobia follows the same pattern, as is likely, then those who are Transphobes likely have repressed transgender feelings of their own or repressed trans-attraction (likely genetic as we know that Transgender is at least in part genetic and two widespread to not have conferred a survival/prosperity/attractiveness/fertility advantage so Trans-attraction as an innate orientation likely also evolved alongside it).

So those people will likely not suffer a psychological problem as a result but instead have their pre-existing psychological problem brought to the surface enabling it to heal on their own or them to seek treatment.

Now let's not ignore that having these serious harmful repressions brought to the surface could be quite distressing and painful, but who is responsible for that?

The sufferer of the illness is. They have a responsibility to get any mental illness they have which might impact other people treated. If that means they cannot risk dating or sleeping with anyone because there's between a 1 in 10 and 1 in 30-ish chance with every partner that they are Transgender and 1 in 100 that they are Intersex until after they have had sufficient therapy then that's their responsibility. Not the Transgender and Intersex people they sleep with.

Should the Trans/Intersex people disclose? Well most Intersex people do not know they are Intersex! Many are surgically altered by doctors when babies (sometimes even the parents don't get told!) and many don't find out till they become professional international athletes or during pregnancy or attempts to get pregnant. And as for Transgender people why would the onus be on them to disclose? Doesn't every person Cis and Trans alike deserve to know if the person they are considering sleeping with is a Transphobe? Should not the Transphobe disclose their potential issue long before the potential-trans/potential-Intersex person even considers whether or not to disclose their personal medical history if they even know it?

After all, lets look at who is maximally impacted. Trans people are at least 1 in 30 people, and they will usually have parents, siblings, cousins, ex's, friends who it can be reasonably assumed would be distressed to learn that they slept with a transphobe. So more people are likely to be upset that they slept with a transphobe than there will be transphobes who have had sex with a Trans person. As the risk of sleeping with a transphobe effects a greater amount of people than will ever sleep with a trans person then clearly it is the transphobe who has the obligation to disclose so that their potential partner can decide to find someone better to have sex with instead.

So the Transperson doesn't need to disclose, the transphobes do. Ever having sex without disclosing they are a transphobe is a tacit acknowledgement that there will be a risk that the person slept with is Trans or Intersex and acceptance of that risk. Especially as, as i said, most Intersex people do not know they are Intersex and so cannot disclose that.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:42 PM
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a reply to: Kojiro




That's because it is your problem. You have these little psychological penis-fear hangups where you're afraid that you'll somehow "catch the gay" by having sex with a transgendered woman.

Again changing the argument and personnel attacks. It has nothing todo with catching the gay as you say.

It has todo with honesty and the lack of concern for the well being of the person you are intimate with, which applies to everyone not just transgender.

You are knowingly and willing to take a selfish risk that the person you are having sex with , might have some serious psycological problems if they were to find out the truth. Yet you could care less for them and their problems, but you expect for them to care about you?




You're attempting to justify small-minded, ignorant HATE.

I would say the person that is small-minded and full of ignorant hate is the one that is knowingly and willing to risk the other persons well being for their own benefit in addition to throwing personal attacks.




It is not selfish to want to live my life in peaceful anonymity without people like you beating me down.

I'm not the one beating down on you, actually you are the one that has been making the personal attacks.

Even in my first post I posted my comment as a question but you decide to personally attack instead of maybe correct me in my view or provide a counter point.


I even said I have no problems with transgenders and I only wish them happiness as long as it doesn't hurt others.

I wish we lived in a reality where transgenders and EVERYONE were excepted and UNDERSTOOD by society without a second thought. However that is not the reality we live in.

The reality is, while it might be wrong, many would have serious issues if they were to have sex with someone who was transgender.

The issue is is that you are very aware of this possiblity, and yet don't give a damn about the problems that you may have caused to the other person, but expect them to fully care about your problem.


No It is not selfish to want to live your life peaceful anonymity. However, it is when you disregard the wellness of the other person to get it.

No one is saying to wear a shirt or shout it out to the world the truth.

However the same rules that apply to others should apply to transgender as well and why would you want to be with somebody who doesn't accept you.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:44 PM
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dbl post
edit on 48731America/ChicagoWed, 15 Jul 2015 22:48:39 -0500000000p3142 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:56 PM
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a reply to: Bayne




Serious psychological problems?
Hmm.. well the majority of homophobes (over 80%) a


Yes, a straight guy that has had sex and finds out that person they had sex was a man would LIKELY have problems. Enough to the point where violence has occurred and even led to death in the past.

While it might be wrong, its the reality.

BTW I love the hypocrisy , LOL

Get offended when a straight person uses the wrong term, but have no regards about offending with terms like homophobes, ignorant , etc..




posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 10:57 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

I didn't appreciate being compared to an adulterer. Anyway, direct all future replies to Bayne. I'm having coffee and am through with this thread.



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:19 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: interupt42

I didn't appreciate being compared to an adulterer. Anyway, direct all future replies to Bayne. I'm having coffee and am through with this thread.


Again, you are scapegoating the issue.

I did not compare you to an adulterer nor did I suggest you were an adulter. I just used Adultery to demonstrate the flaw in your logic.

However, if I truly offended you, Then I'm truly sorry and apologise for that as that was not my intention.


I hope you also understand that I have no problem treating everyone with respect and seeing everyone as equals including transgenders.

However, I do see it as a double standard how little consideration is given to the non transgender person who could be later impacted by the realization of the truth.

Its not like a transgender and their family and friends came to terms with it overnight, its equally unfair to expect the non transgender to accept and to come to terms with it overnight under such circumstances.

I see nothing wrong with being considerate with each other and concerned with each others well being while the transition to full acceptance by society occurs.
edit on 27731America/ChicagoWed, 15 Jul 2015 23:27:53 -0500000000p3142 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:28 PM
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a reply to: interupt42

Nope. Your first claim may be based on a common assumption but it's not credible. For a start most of the people who have sex with Trans-women are men who consider themselves and identify as straight. It's not like Transgender sex work hasn't been a thing for centuries (millennia actually but it used to also be religious in nature) and from the Molly Houses of the British Empire and it's colonies to today's streetwalkers it's not homosexual men who visit Trans women sex workers. There's just not enough homosexual men to keep them in business for a start, self-identified gay men are less in number (not even 2%!) than Transgender people.

Many of the Trans-panic-defence murders have been shown to be premeditated. Such as the murderer of Angie Zapata who it was proved in court had known for over a week that Angie was Trans and forensics found that only the murderer had been using the sex toy in their shared apartment, a solid piece of evidence that hiding his actual sexuality and projection of his internal conflict onto an innocent other was the real motive of his crime.

So the assumption that all straight men will react with violence is clearly not valid. You'd need to show that a non-homophobic non-transphobic straight man might respond with violence. But a non-homophobic non-transphobic straight man would see a trans-woman accurately, as a woman, and not be fussed.

As for Hypocrisy, no i've shown you none. Homophobe and Transphobe are the correct terms, used by me not as slurs but as accurate descriptors. Nor have i got offended in front of you or with you with the use of any wrong terms either, but if i did that would not be hypocrisy but consistency as i used the correct terms Homophobe and Transphobe both of which have been in use for over Twenty years, and particularly used in the context of the discussion of multiple studies on Homophobia.

Nor am i ascribing any derogatory meaning to either. Did you not just notice that i clearly showed that they are sufferers from serious psychological problems? Recognising that repression leads to harming oneself and others is both honesty and compassion not the application of a slur.

Now i take it, as you have not countered them, that you concede to my points re: the onus of disclosure is on the transphobe and the transphobe has an obligation to seek treatment before having sex with anyone, ever, without disclosure?



posted on Jul, 15 2015 @ 11:53 PM
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a reply to: Bayne




So the assumption that all straight men will react with violence is clearly not valid


Agreed, never said that. However, do you have a transgender acceptance radar?




As for Hypocrisy, no i've shown you none. Homophobe and Transphobe are the correct terms, used by me not as slurs but as accurate descriptors.


So Homophobe and Transphobe is a good thing and not a negative connotation , got it





Homophobe and Transphobe both of which have been in use for over Twenty years, and particularly used in the context of the discussion of multiple studies on Homophobia.


So has hermaphrodite.




Now i take it, as you have not countered them, that you concede to my points

Sure , if that makes you feel better. It couldn't be possibly that i had lost interest with your post and decided to not reply to each and every point which sounded rather irrelevant to what I said.


edit on 54731America/ChicagoWed, 15 Jul 2015 23:54:49 -0500000000p3142 by interupt42 because: (no reason given)




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