Two Questions for Transgender people

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: pompel9

Considering that I have more than clearly stated several times over what I meant by the "deformed" comment and you're still pushing the very erroneous understanding that I somehow allegedly am applying it to all men makes it clear that you are not actually here for serious debate. Any further post from you will be ignored, because I feel I have sufficiently explained myself.

I see. So you don't like it when I call you out on attacking me on personal level. I never attacked you, I attacked your statement.

I have dealt with people like you my whole life.

I did sympathize with your cause, since my life has been similar. No, I am not a trans, but I have endured hell on earth.

Feel free to ignore.

originally posted by: new_here
a reply to: Kojiro

"...even OB/GYNs can be fooled."

When I get an exam, my gyno also palpates my abdomen to feel check my uterus and ovaries, and also scrapes the cervix for the Pap smear, so unless they are constructing all that, it's a poor gyno who can't tell the difference. I'd look for a new gyno ASAP!

I hear what you're saying. Our bodies are similar to a natal female that has had a panhysterectomy and of course we have no ovaries. We do have our own gynecological issues and concerns as well as all the normal ones and do indeed have to have pap smears and mammograms and are no stranger to the stirrups.

External appearance and structures of the vulva and vaginal function for sexual activity is otherwise indistinguishable. We are also orgasmic as well. Of course, when a doctor starts pushing all around and comes at you with a speculum, they know. Just looking from the outside, probably not.

Aren't you glad you asked? Feel better now?

a reply to: EKron

Aren't you glad you asked? Feel better now?

Hahaha!!! No, I'll have nightmares of speculums coming at me now!

But seriously, I get the external "can't tell the difference" part... makes perfect sense. It was the "my gyno couldn't tell" that threw me. (From one so young, where complete hysterectomy would be quite rare.) I mean, that's their area of expertise and all... but I suspect you are right. It was prior to the actual 'invasive' exam.

Cheers

originally posted by: new_here
Hahaha!!! No, I'll have nightmares of speculums coming at me now!

What? You mean that's not your favorite thing in the world?

To you as well!

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: pompel9

You're either going a long way at being obtuse, or you really cannot comprehend the intricacies of language. Perhaps English is not your first language? My mind does not match the body I was born with, ergo a deformity has taken place. It is a deformity to be placed in the wrong body.

With yourself, if you identify as male, the body you were born with, you have no such problem.

You are the second one that calls me obtuse. If you are trying to offend me, then you have certainly succeed.

First you call men deformed (and, yes I am a man), then you call me obtuse and further insult me by telling me I have no clue about language.

I certainly had a lot of sympathy for the condition transpersons have. But this kind of behavior have put me off. Not sure if I have any more sympathy towards you or other people that have similar condition if this is the what I can expect from you and them.

I am sorry to say that.

I just wanted to let you know that we do not all feel that we or the male body is deformed but instead incorrect for us. That is purely the opinion of a few, not all. So I would urge you to not hold a grudge against the whole of us T-folk because one or two people may have been rude to you or used terminology that you find offensive.

Look at it from our perspective we get called all kinds of offensive and incorrect labels all the time. So sometimes we can become very aggressive in defending our right to be who we are. I have been guilty of it myself and have lashed out at and been attacked by some of those from my camp (which has many subsets too btw).

If you ever want to actually learn about us and what makes us tick in a less hostile environment then feel free to U2U me and I will be very nice to you in explaining things as long as you show me the same courtesy.

originally posted by: pompel9

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: pompel9

You're either going a long way at being obtuse, or you really cannot comprehend the intricacies of language. Perhaps English is not your first language? My mind does not match the body I was born with, ergo a deformity has taken place. It is a deformity to be placed in the wrong body.

With yourself, if you identify as male, the body you were born with, you have no such problem.

You are the second one that calls me obtuse. If you are trying to offend me, then you have certainly succeed.

First you call men deformed (and, yes I am a man), then you call me obtuse and further insult me by telling me I have no clue about language.

I certainly had a lot of sympathy for the condition transpersons have. But this kind of behavior have put me off. Not sure if I have any more sympathy towards you or other people that have similar condition if this is the what I can expect from you and them.

I am sorry to say that.

Let me explain.
What is NOT deformed for a cisgender male MAY BE for a person whose hypothalamus has a female neuron-count and structure.

Or to be even more simple, if you are NOT trans then it's not a deformity but if you ARE trans then it might be.

Now a question. Why didn't you understand that when Kojiro said it several different ways? I'm not attacking you, i ask out of concern for you. You might have an undiagnosed eyesight problem or dyslexia or similar, and several people i know had sudden difficulty making sense of some sentences before they had strokes or had Bells Palsy, so it might be worth checking with a doctor.

a reply to: pompel9

Great... so I come back to this thread after a significant number of days, and the first thing I see, is you deliberately misreading, misrepresenting, and drawing about yourself a cloak of righteous indignation?

Your conduct is not conducive to productive discussion. You are learning nothing because you seem not to want to, and that is your right. But you have no right to prevent others from doing so by wasting their precious time!

Good grief... get a grip on yourself.

originally posted by: Bayne
a reply to: turbonium1

Sorry to hear of the attacks you've experienced.

As for the misrepresentation, well not much can be done about that because the media isn't under our control. But does it really fan the flames of hatred? We know most homophobes are repressed or closeted gays and bisexuals themselves. It's been seen time and time again when anti-gay preachers and politicians have been caught with male prostitutes or outed by them.

The sexuality shown of the parades is upsetting to them because it's exactly what they want but hate themselves for wanting. But the more they see it, the more they get exposed to it, the more they may come to accept their own desires. So rather than making the problem worse it could well be the solution.

Or maybe it'll just be a matter of gradual change. Now the majority of people in the Western world are no longer significantly bigoted towards Gays those who are will face increasing social isolation and increasingly will see gay people openly living normal lives. So the generation growing up now will have much fewer repressing their sexuality, so less homophobes are being created, and so on till there are none. And if so then Trans will follow the same pattern.

I agree with your point about homophobes being repressed homosexuals, but some are not. Some of them are playing a role for other reasons. The parents may plant the idea, or his friend(s), etc.


As I see it, the parades won't change, ever...

To me, parades are focusing on 'sexuality', and little else.

The parades appear to the public as if gays are saying 'we are nothing at all like you are', instead of saying 'we are humans, the exact same as you are'.

And that's the problem.


Gays, trans, et al are all humans, and want to be treated as all humans. Parades focus on the sexual preferences, or gender identities, of humans.

That is not the main goal, but that is the end result, and it always will be...because the mass media controls it ...

There was a post earlier on from someone who felt homosexuality was being 'pushed' into our faces, more and more...

That's why I said pride parades have negative effects. The news shows parades with gays who dance about in skimpy briefs, as something to take 'pride' in, and pretending to be good, wholesome family entertainment!

It may not represent the majority of these parades, as the media is giving everyone the wrong impression. But that's what it appears to be, to people viewing it around the world.

I don't think it is something suitable for children to watch, male or female, actually. It is done in Rio, for example, but I don't think it's suitable for family entertainment, either. And it is only done in Rio, not in every city around the world. Mardi Gras is another example, but no others I'm aware of.

Anyway, the point is these parades do not help your cause, they mostly do the opposite, which isn't a good thing...

a reply to: turbonium1

Didn't you see the pics i posted of those parades earlier? The majority of them aren't like that. They have police and armed service members in uniform and the city Mayor in them. They focus less on sexuality than the heterosexual mardi gras does. The tv news just pics the most outlandish images they can get away with and use those. But millions attend them and know differently.

But, making GLBTIA invisible does not overcome prejudice. You don't beat terrorists by giving in to their demands. People will only overcome their repression-based negative reaction to seeing us and seeing the objects of their true sexual desire when they see MORE of it. When they see so much of it that they get past their reaction to it.

As for the 17% of phobes who aren't themselves gay/trans/trans-attracted? Well they'll get over it even faster bty seeing it everyday.

So no the answer is not less overt homosexuality etc. Because that does not really put people off any more than the daily constant heterosexual sexual-expression covering every magazine newstand, bookstore shelves, television drama and even children's fairy-tales puts people off. One is seen as weird cause it's rare and the other normal cause it's EVERYWHERE.

So no, the answer is more of it. More holding hands on tv and public, more non-passing Trans people on tv and in public, more sex-scenes in adult-timeslot tv and film. Because those who are straight but not phobes will be momentarily bored at worst and the phobes will get over their problem.

Please pardon me for a moment of reflection and a few final thoughts. I just passed my eight year anniversary of being a member of ATS and my sixth week of actively posting. Up until June 15, I had 27 posts and I am now approaching my 200th, nearly all in these transgender threads.

For those coming into the party late, I am one of these trans people these threads have been about. I had no intention of participating or outing myself but with the example and urging of others, became involved to help raise awareness and understanding of the trans phenomenon. This is something I dealt with as a small child and adolescent but by early adulthood and for the past 41 years or so, not something I paid much attention to or involved myself with. I have lived my life blended into society as just a regular person, your coworker and your neighbor next door. As a child and teen, I was obviously unusual and different and attracted a lot of unwanted attention but my life as an adult, for lack of a better term, has been lived in "stealth" and not as a member of or participant in the politics of the LBGTQ+ community or as trans anything.

My activity here these last six weeks has found me doing a great deal of introspection, examining things I never thought of and doing a lot of reading and research into the subject learning things I never knew or understood. It has been weird and made me question things I never had questioned before, things that just were or were part of my experience growing up. This personal trip down memory lane at times has been uncomfortable and my recent time here hasn't been without conflict with those supposedly in the same boat but I have a better understanding why these things are than I did even a few weeks ago.

I'd like to thank those that have been willing to learn and maybe reexamine their feelings on things, those that have been understanding and compassionate and to apologize to those I have offended due to lack of my own understanding about all this stuff. We do all have different experiences, backgrounds and motivations and I have learned I have far more in common and can relate to some much better than others. At times, this lack of apparent unity has been caused by my own ignorance into the differences of trans gender expression, behavior and psychology that is unique for all of us.

I've done what I could here and in other threads to paint a picture of what my life has been like and how I came to be often sharing personal things I have never shared with anyone to let others draw their own conclusions. Has it made any difference or changed anyone's mind? I can't say for sure but would hope so, if even a little. For me, it has brought to light a few questions I wish my parents were still around to ask about things I'd never really thought of before and forced me to remember unpleasant and challenging times in my life I'd rather forget or had forgotten. It has been an interesting and thought provoking diversion, regardless.

So, to my fellow members of ATS, even to those hostile and lacking tolerance, thanks for this platform to share the stories of my unusual but strangely normal to me feeling life. I will continue to participate when called for or when my experience might be helpful but for the most part, am done with all of this and now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

originally posted by: Bayne

Didn't you see the pics i posted of those parades earlier? The majority of them aren't like that. They have police and armed service members in uniform and the city Mayor in them. They focus less on sexuality than the heterosexual mardi gras does. The tv news just pics the most outlandish images they can get away with and use those. But millions attend them and know differently.

Yes, the millions who attend the parades know differently. I'm referring to the billions of people who haven't attended the parades, who only see the "most outlandish images" and footage of the parades, in the media. If that's all they see, of course they will assume it represents the main theme of those parades.

Homophobes are not likely to attend these parades. They only see the media's images and footage of the parades. This doesn't help homophobes to understand and accept you, it probably stirs up more anger in them, and that's the problem I see.

originally posted by: Bayne
But, making GLBTIA invisible does not overcome prejudice. You don't beat terrorists by giving in to their demands. People will only overcome their repression-based negative reaction to seeing us and seeing the objects of their true sexual desire when they see MORE of it. When they see so much of it that they get past their reaction to it.

I agree that it doesn't help to make it invisible.

But seeing more and more of the parades - as the media presents the parades - will only create more and more hatred, not les and less.

As many of us know, a typical homophobe is often a repressed homosexual. They will not become less repressed, less angry, by seeing more and more men in skimpy briefs, dancing about. They will actually become more repressed, and more angry. They will change the channel, to avoid seeing it.

Homophobes do not live in areas like West End Vancouver, if they don't need to, because they do not want to see 'more and more' gays. They avoid it for the very reason that we know - because they can't deal with being gay themselves.

Anyway, the point is that more and more exposure, specifically in media images/footage of parades, is not the solution, it probably makes it a bigger problem.

originally posted by: Bayne
As for the 17% of phobes who aren't themselves gay/trans/trans-attracted? Well they'll get over it even faster bty seeing it everyday.

So no the answer is not less overt homosexuality etc. Because that does not really put people off any more than the daily constant heterosexual sexual-expression covering every magazine newstand, bookstore shelves, television drama and even children's fairy-tales puts people off. One is seen as weird cause it's rare and the other normal cause it's EVERYWHERE.

So no, the answer is more of it. More holding hands on tv and public, more non-passing Trans people on tv and in public, more sex-scenes in adult-timeslot tv and film. Because those who are straight but not phobes will be momentarily bored at worst and the phobes will get over their problem.

I think the answer is to focus on showing gays are human, like everyone else. Shows like Amazing Race put the focus on gays being human, in a positive way. A homophobe may watch the show, and that the gay couple are likeable, because they are good people, and there is no reason to hate them for being gay, and no reason to hate himself for being gay.

That makes it hard for a homophobe to hate, because the gays he sees are likeable, as people.

Here is where it gets tricky...

The homophobe has friends, and parents, who he loves. They think he is 'normal', and he's (likely) had girlfriends, too. He has lied to all the people in his life, and now he wants to tell them the truth.

It's not easy to tell them, and he might not. But at least it might stop his homophobia, so that's a good thing.

I completely disagree with your idea of the media showing more and more gay sex scenes, for the same reasons I don't like the media showing only skimpy-briefed men dance in parades. It emphasizes sex, and diminishes the human. Homophobes have to realize, and come to accept, that they are humans, first and foremost. Then, their sexual instincts and attractions will become a more natural thing.. by knowing they are human.


Consider the repression of sexual instincts in religions. They cannot deal with being sexual creatures, so they become very repressed. A preacher howls about gays as sinners, as going to hell for their evil ways, while the preacher himself is gay, and suppresses it, all along. The preacher holds up a newspaper, with photos from a pride parade...and tells his flock...

'Look at how homosexuality is a deviant sex-obsessed lifestyle choice. These images prove it, without a doubt. Do you want these people living in your neighborhood? Do you think your children should see this? Of course not. But that is what we now see happening'

You already understand that the media shows the most outlandish images from parades. It seems that you believe it is a good, and positive thing, that the media deliberately, and consistently, misleads the public perception of gays as nothing but silly, outlandish, sex-obsessed people. I see nothing of the sort.

The media is not your friend. They do not have your best interests at heart. The media will say they are showing support for your cause, by showing so much footage of the parades. And you would think that can only be a good thing, right? No, it is a bad thing, because they only show the outlandish parts, and not much else.

originally posted by: EKron
Please pardon me for a moment of reflection and a few final thoughts. I just passed my eight year anniversary of being a member of ATS and my sixth week of actively posting. Up until June 15, I had 27 posts and I am now approaching my 200th, nearly all in these transgender threads.

For those coming into the party late, I am one of these trans people these threads have been about. I had no intention of participating or outing myself but with the example and urging of others, became involved to help raise awareness and understanding of the trans phenomenon. This is something I dealt with as a small child and adolescent but by early adulthood and for the past 41 years or so, not something I paid much attention to or involved myself with. I have lived my life blended into society as just a regular person, your coworker and your neighbor next door. As a child and teen, I was obviously unusual and different and attracted a lot of unwanted attention but my life as an adult, for lack of a better term, has been lived in "stealth" and not as a member of or participant in the politics of the LBGTQ+ community or as trans anything.

My activity here these last six weeks has found me doing a great deal of introspection, examining things I never thought of and doing a lot of reading and research into the subject learning things I never knew or understood. It has been weird and made me question things I never had questioned before, things that just were or were part of my experience growing up. This personal trip down memory lane at times has been uncomfortable and my recent time here hasn't been without conflict with those supposedly in the same boat but I have a better understanding why these things are than I did even a few weeks ago.

I'd like to thank those that have been willing to learn and maybe reexamine their feelings on things, those that have been understanding and compassionate and to apologize to those I have offended due to lack of my own understanding about all this stuff. We do all have different experiences, backgrounds and motivations and I have learned I have far more in common and can relate to some much better than others. At times, this lack of apparent unity has been caused by my own ignorance into the differences of trans gender expression, behavior and psychology that is unique for all of us.

I've done what I could here and in other threads to paint a picture of what my life has been like and how I came to be often sharing personal things I have never shared with anyone to let others draw their own conclusions. Has it made any difference or changed anyone's mind? I can't say for sure but would hope so, if even a little. For me, it has brought to light a few questions I wish my parents were still around to ask about things I'd never really thought of before and forced me to remember unpleasant and challenging times in my life I'd rather forget or had forgotten. It has been an interesting and thought provoking diversion, regardless.

So, to my fellow members of ATS, even to those hostile and lacking tolerance, thanks for this platform to share the stories of my unusual but strangely normal to me feeling life. I will continue to participate when called for or when my experience might be helpful but for the most part, am done with all of this and now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

Thanks for what you're doing, here and elsewhere.

I think it's good for everyone to know about this.

Please keep telling people the truth, and I wish you the best...

I have a question, the internet is saying this person is transgender male to female.
I personally think they are just trying to insult her, but if the people posting in this thread know for sure let us know.
Here is her picture from Facebook.

Sabrina Corgatelli

Sabrina

Now if she isn't, how much of an insult is it to be a real woman and be accused of being a transgender ?
Is it a social warning for women not to have enhancement surgery themselves ?

Double post

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
Now if she isn't, how much of an insult is it to be a real woman and be accused of being a transgender ?
Is it a social warning for women not to have enhancement surgery themselves ?

"Real" women? If you're ever lucky enough to meet on or actually go on a date of something, why don't you ask them this question and see what kind of answer you get.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

Does it really matter if she is or isn't? Your transphobia is quite evident when you use terms like "real woman" in context of differentiating from transgendered. That alone is insulting.

originally posted by: Blue_Jay33
I have a question, the internet is saying this person is transgender male to female.
I personally think they are just trying to insult her, but if the people posting in this thread know for sure let us know.
Here is her picture from Facebook.

Sabrina Corgatelli

Sabrina

Now if she isn't, how much of an insult is it to be a real woman and be accused of being a transgender ?
Is it a social warning for women not to have enhancement surgery themselves ?

I understand that this whole thread has been a learning experience for you but... really really think about what you just said.

Also, some of the most beautiful women I've ever seen are transwomen so a ciswoman shouldn't be insulted at all for being suspected of being transgender. Same goes with transmen... there are a lot of super hot transguys out there who would have faaaaar better luck getting lucky than most cismen I know.

Semantics can lead to insults, I am not going to use 3 sentences to be so politically correct to describe something, but I do apologize if I offended anybody with my verbiage.

Edit: Ok the correct term is ciswoman, I didn't know that, and now I do.

a reply to: Blue_Jay33

If you've been paying attention, you'd know that you wouldn't have to use "three sentences." The prefix for people born as the gender they identify with is "cis-". It was that simple.

You, however, were being offensive on every level.