Two Questions for Transgender people

a reply to: Kojiro

I respect your opinion and will no longer mention STD's in the same form as I previously mentioned in order to avoid any connotation regarding the trans gender community and std's. I apologize that my example was not well received.

If I had sex with what I thought to be a woman, and it turned out to be an alien I would not be very happy with the alien, In fact I would wonder a whole host of things including if the alien gave me any foreign microbes. Since the alien was not being straightforward with me from the beginning I have no reason not to think the alien was trying to harm me and had nothing but malevolent intentions. Not only did I engage in relations with something I did not want, this engagement may have gone against my religious beliefs because my deity forbid intercourse between man and alien.

I think this is a better than my last representation. Would you agree? Thank you for pushing me to pursue a better expression for a sensitive topic.

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Oy. And yet you install microbes again, implying some matter of virulence.

Your hypothetical alien wouldn't necessarily have to have hostile intentions. It seems bizarre that you list that as the first thing to come to your mind. Is that what you think of transgendered women, that we're out to get you with malevolent intentions? We're just people. Your "alien" likely would be curious about what life as a human is like, possibly studying procreation and mating rituals, thus the "disguise" as a woman and the sexual act.

Any disease the alien would have is completely inconsequential to this alien's attempt to blend into human gender normative society. That's all transgendered people who stealth are trying to do, blend in, because the alternative could mean our lives due to some extreme, murderous bigot. Your running phobia about "catching" something seems rather irrational when connected to transgendered people, because anyone could be carrying an STD, even natal females. Transgenderism is not contagious, you're not going to suddenly turn gay, because there's nothing to be gay about (unless you're having sex with a transgendered man).

A deformity at birth does not define us, our minds do.

a reply to: Kojiro

There's more of a argument that transphobes like yourself are actually life-threatening, ergo the government should force you to identify yourselves.

I like how you're more concerned about transgendered people than anyone else. Are you really going to say that someone that slept with a transgender person wouldn't kill themselves out of shame, the same way a transgendered person might kill themselves because someone hurt their feelings? Think of all the people that kill themselves after being outed as gay, something that's far more tolerated than transgendered people. Right or wrong, transgender people are often considered to be men in dresses, so someone that is essentially lied to gets hit with a double edged sword. They slept with what they consider a man, and they were too stupid to realize it, and they were also deceived (I don't agree with it, but that's the thinking common to many people).

If transgender people could just admit that they are not the same as what they purport to be, and accept that not everyone wants to sleep with them, this whole issue wouldn't exist. Not everyone considers you a woman, and you're not the same as a woman that was born with matching parts. Get over it, and stop trying to force everyone else to label you incorrectly. I'm a white man. If I'm standing next to a black man, I expect someone to refer to me as the white guy, because it's a classification. It has nothing to do with my worth, it's just what I am. I am caucasian. I transgendered person is a transgendered person, not exactly what they wish they were. They should learn to be happy in their own skin, even if that skin is cut up and formed into something else, it doesn't change the fact that their skin has been cut up and changed into something else. Saying you are now a certain sex doesn't mean that you weren't BORN a certain sex, even if it makes you sad. I'm sure people with 11 fingers and get one removed refer to themselves as 10 fingered, but it doesn't change the fact that they were born with something, had it removed and are not the same as those born with 10.

You think that anyone that doesn't gladly sleep with a transgendered person is a transphobe. That's ridiculous. Would you say the same thing about a transgendered person that doesn't want to sleep with someone because they're not trans? Does that make them cisphobic? People have sexual preferences. Transgendered people are not the same as cisgender people, and some cisgender people just want to sleep with cisgender people. Don't begrudge people for their sexual proclivities. You want to be accepted, so accept the rest of us. I don't think that every woman (or man, or transgender person, or gay guy, or nonbinary person or whatever) should have to sleep with me or she's a Domophobe.

a reply to: Domo1

Oh, yes, your callous double standard where you trivialized the suicide of a young transgendered woman, and blamed her for the act. But somehow, if this hypothetical transphobe takes his life after discovering the woman he had sex with was born with male genitalia, it suddenly means the WHOLE WORLD, is a great tragedy, and somehow still the transgendered woman's fault. Nevermind that I've never heard of such a thing even happening... usually the phobe loses his # and attacks the woman.

Bollocks, to you, I say. There's nothing further to discuss.

a reply to: Kojiro

A deformity at birth does not define us, our minds do.

Yeah, it does. That's how we categorize things. You've no doubt heard the ridiculous meme about identifying as an attack helicopter. It's ridiculous, but so is pretending that you are the same as a woman born with the matching set. You're not the same, some people don't want to sleep with people that aren't the same, and they shouldn't be tricked into it.

You got a crappy deal when you were born, because you were thrust into an unaccepting society. That doesn't give you the right to take advantage and obfuscate your origin story when you know darn well many people wouldn't like to be sexually intimate with you, but are unaware they need to be on guard.

Having sex with someone that's obviously straight when you're completely passable is disgusting if you don't inform them. You KNOW you're different, but you are unable to cope, so you pass it off as if you're the same. That's not fair to you, it's unfair to everyone in your position, it's unfair to all the people that are going to grow up thinking the only way to be accepted is to lie, and it's unfair to people that don't want to sleep with people that get convincing surgery to appear they've always been a certain sex.

I'm going to ask you an honest question, do you honestly believe what you're saying? To me it sounds like you've been indoctrinated into a cult. You're saying straight people that identify as the sex that they were born with are mentally unstable... To have a preference to only have sex with people that are the same sex they were born as, and identify with the gender that aligns with their sex is a mental issue... That is absurd.

I respect you. I wouldn't lie to you. Don't lie to me. It's simple really. Have a modicum of respect for those that don't completely agree with you. Anything else is becoming the kind of person that's oppressed you.

a reply to: Domo1

I highly doubt you speak for all straight men.

a reply to: Kojiro

Oh, yes, your callous double standard where you trivialized the suicide of a young transgendered woman, and blamed her for the act.

Well, I'm pointing out your double standard, not saying that either the transgender person or the person opposed to coitus with the transgendered person are at fault.

Nevermind that I've never heard of such a thing even happening... usually the phobe loses his # and attacks the woman.

You've never heard of it, but that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about hypotheticals. If a transgendered person lies by omission.

usually the phobe loses his # and attacks the woman.

And that is a great tragedy. I for one don't think that it's appropriate to attack a man or woman physically, even if they are lying to you. We aren't discussing the morality of beating the face off some transgender woman that lies to a man. We're discussing the morality of lying to a man or a woman, if one is transgendered. A lie of omission is still a lie, and reprehensible in this situation. Lie it or not, even casual sex requires a degree of intimacy and trust. The transgender would be breaking that trust if she/he/whatever isn't honest about what they really are.

Bollocks, to you, I say. There's nothing further to discuss.

Well, that's too bad. I learned a few things from you, was hoping you could learn something from me. I've been accepting and realistic. You've been antagonistic and closed minded, unaccepting of any view other than your own. You think anyone that doesn't want to sleep with something they're not attracted to makes them a bigot. I want you to really think about that, really take a look at your beliefs. I think if you find your actual values (and this may be hard), actually access them, you'll find that you're position is very disturbing. Basically what I've gotten from you is that trans people's feelings and sense of self is more important because it's been a hard row to hoe.

I hope you take this to heart, and learn. I don't have an issue with trans people. I have an issue with liars. It's the deception, and I get why it's hard to admit the truth to yourself and others. You feel lost, you feel different, and you crave acceptance and inclusion. You feel like you are a puzzle piece that doesn't fit. You DO fit, so stop trying to pretend you're not just a little different. The majority know that you fit, recognize that you're human and love you just the same, even if you're a little different. You deserve all the love, acceptance and respect that everyone else does. Realize that we all have different feelings and proclivities and try harder to accept people that accept you, but don't want to have sex with you. I really hope you can learn to be less hateful, when you let go of that hate, I think it will be a very freeing experience for you.

I wish you the best, and I hope that you find love and are always accepted as your true self.

a reply to: Kojiro

I highly doubt you speak for all straight men.

You didn't get the invitation? I was elected, it smelled terrible. The Grand Canyon wasn't the best venue, even after all the fedoras and neckbeards were removed.

If you ordered an iphone from ebay you expect an iphone not a chinese knockoff.

Its a form of false advertizement. I agree with domo1

Next time I go on a date I'm gonna make sure I tell the guy right off I have a deformed jaw, and he shouldn't plan on certain sex acts. Good luck Mr. Gorsky.

Wouldn't want to take a chance on him getting to know me and liking me, just for me.

The horrors.

originally posted by: solarjetman
There are two issues that have been on my mind for some time that I just can't figure out, and I know if I posted this anywhere else I would be immediately vilified and labeled a bigot. I concede the following two questions come from a place of pure ignorance, and may likely even piss off and/or hurt feelings... but I would genuinely like to understand some things. My mind is an empty canvas and I promise my intentions are pure. End of disclaimer, here goes...

1. One argument folks generally make for LGBT rights is to let them be, they aren't bothering you, they aren't hurting you etc. which I totally understand in issues like gay marriage. They like what they like and can't help that; I get that. The thing with a transgender female (previously male), however, is, they COULD potentially hurt me as a straight male, who is attracted to women and repulsed by intimacy with men. If I dated a woman and kissed or got remotely intimate, and found out later that she had a sex change when she was 6 years old-- similar to the story currently floating around-- I would be FURIOUS to say the least. I would feel deeply violated and upset. So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)? Because it's my biological disposition to be repulsed by the thought of intimacy with a trans woman. Just as you can't help your feelings, I can't help mine...maybe some other straight guys beg to differ, but that's how I personally am wired, end of story.

2. When a two-year-old tells their parents that they feel like they're trapped inside another gender's body (which happened), could it be that perhaps society's crude gender roles need a deep examination rather than calling it an error in nature? I remember a study somewhere saying that little boys tend to actually be as emotional as little girls up until a certain age, when societal cues tell them all sorts of crap they must adhere to. I personally am equally annoyed by the hyper-masculine ideology of "manning up", sucking up emotions and never crying-- things like that-- as I am by the "girls belong in the kitchen" attitude, and strongly believe the world would be a MUCH better place if it were socially acceptable for men to feel more emotional and women to run things. In other words, if a little boy would rather play with dolls than trucks, maybe THAT should be okay and we instead break down patriarchal gender roles rather than questioning the predefined gender he associates with the most? Now, I know there's obviously much more to deciding to transition than that, but that seems to be the story that blogs and news always run with, so I'm trying to see how deep that really goes (for a two-year-old no less).

Any THOUGHTFUL replies here would be quite appreciated. Please resist the temptation to act like this is Facebook and drop a nifty one-liner for infinite stars-- that's too easy and neutralizes any opportunity for meaningful dialogue. There are fewer and fewer places around where you can discuss sensitive social issues so freely, so for my sake and others, help keep it that way!

Wow I apologize in advance but this thread has exploded and wish I could have kept up from the start, but to save myself from having to read all the pages I will simply reply to your two questions. First of all thank you for asking questions, this is something I appreciate and is the path to understanding. I should start by saying I am a trans woman, and I have always been female though I was born in a male body, at no point was I ever a male.

1.) You bring up something profound that has a lot of answers but really asks you to question yourself more. Trans people, trans women especially, are constantly being stereotyped to be deceptive and liars and so on, but this is not true of most of us, we are simply trying to express our gender identities. Now there are a few trans women that don't want to go for the cis (non trans) girl look, but the majority of them do. So what you are asking is for us to broadcast that we are trans, which is asking us to self discriminate. I know it seems like you are vulnerable but you have to understand that from our perspective, and from statistical perspectives, it is far far more dangerous for the trans woman than it is for the 'straight guy.' To be honest I get where you are coming from, but I think the honest truth is self reflection. If you absolutely cannot fathom being with a trans woman, then you will have to simply date no women at all, because it isn't our responsibility to be on the lookout for you and your vulnerabilities. If you really find a trans woman that you are attracted to and feel a connection with, then don't be shocked because she is in fact a woman, she isn't tricking you, you are simply limiting your own self.

2.) No, absolutely not. Being transgender is not something that can be solved in any other way than transitioning to the gender in one's mind. A lot of it is based off of society and that is the goal for most trans people is to fit into society as the gender they identify with. Now you will find trans people throughout all cultures, so its not society that creates the transgender person, it is a biological one. Me being transgender is no more unnatural than you being a straight male, this is how I was born, and I know if I could have been born a female body at birth I would have chose so, no matter what society I was born into.

So there is an answer from a trans woman, just like you requested. So you are left having to either fight the rest of the world on your own, or doing some self searching and finding your place in the world and what really causes you to be so repulsed by what are essentially women. And on a side note, you don't deserve a relationship with a trans woman if you continue on like you do, you will find that we are much more Human, compassionate, and insightful than a great deal of cis people. Regards.

a reply to: honested3

Hi honested, thanks for joining the thread and adding to the discussion. I've learned quite a bit over the course of the thread, particularly with regards to question #2... there were some very heartfelt personal anecdotes from others that made it painfully obvious that this isn't caused by environmental factors. I almost feel silly I even asked, but hopefully others will have a chance to read through if they had the same question.

I'm admittedly not quite where I want to be education-wise regarding the first question. I've been trying to listen throughout the thread, but seeing that issue is still going strong over 20+ pages, let me see if I'm at least getting somewhere with this:

The thrust of this all is that a woman is NOT defined by her body, but what's between her ears (men too, for that matter). And so, when a woman gets born with a guy's body--which most of us in the thread already agreed is entirely possible-- we are STILL dealing with a woman... only with the incorrect body at birth. Science does the best it can to correct this problem, while not 100% perfect it can get close enough that even an OB/GYN doctor can't tell the difference.

I think this is the source of most of the strife in this thread. When you look at it mind-first/body-second, I can see why informing every partner seems patently ridiculous and discriminatory. If you were born with a crooked spine or deviated septum-- other examples of a "wrong body"-- and received surgery to correct it, who the hell needs to know about it?

I think most straight guys (NOT ALL!) are approaching this body-first, mind-second. If you were born with a penis that's that, and anything to hide it is deception. Perhaps adding to the confusion is the fact that some gay men are very feminine in nature, so maybe we are thinking a gay man could be so feminine that they want a new body... without even distinguishing between that and actually BEING a woman trapped in the opposite body. It's simply hard to process not being in that position ourselves.

What complicates this even more (and I effectively bowed out of these conversations) was seeing in the thread how some in different phases of transitioning and/or gender identity were in disagreement with each other.

There's a lot to learn still, but if nothing else this thread has helped me in ways I couldn't have even imagined. This is gonna make me seem REALLY immature (if I didn't blow that already haha), but it's gotten me to start looking at women for their minds MUCH more. I just met with a girl I've known for a while and could immediately feel a much better connection just reframing that thinking. So thanks for helping me grow up a little!

a reply to: TrueBrit

Sorry to hear of all you went through.

Of course the lesser impact on your self-esteem may have come from the strength you gained from enduring all that without breaking, whereas others may not have been toughened against it.

a reply to: EKron

Basing the questions around SRS though misses that there's quite a few types of sex that don't need it. In fact if a person has had the surgery it becomes much less likely that a partner would find out the person they had sex with had been Trans.

I'm not aggressive i'm assertive, there's a big difference. And the stats are crucial to evaluating the risks and realities involved in the discussion and to disprove common false beliefs. How else is anything proved but with evidence reason and logic? As for political i didn't make this a political issue, the rights involved are simple and clear. And if someone is making a bogus point and i counter it with some truth well then that's that. If truths and assertiveness from one person who knows what she is talking about puts you or anyone else off from being an ally to a mistreated group of people denied equality then that would just reflect badly on your or their own character and integrity.

I'm not here to trick or manipulate or seduce or fool anyone into agreeing with me. That would be dishonest and corrupt and there's too much of that rhetoric of deception going on in the world already. I'm here instead to make rational arguments and statements of fact supported by evidence that people cannot disprove or honestly argue against because what i say is true. And if honest truth scares people away then they didn't need molly-codling or some sugar-coating to start with they would have a problem with honesty and truth. It might be scary cause it's rare but there;s a lot more to be frightened of in sweet lies than bitter truths.

a reply to: JadeStar

In answer to your question, well that will depend a lot. There's a growing number of Trans and Intersex people transitioning in Academia, i know several who are Professors at Universities who've made significant contributions before transition (in one Intersex friends case her body changed all on it's own whether she wanted it or not). You'd need to find a way of determining how bad the glass ceiling(s) you'd face for being Trans in the area you think you can get far in will be and try and gauge the relative value of being out. If you come out now and there's not any/many other Trans people out around you, that could inspire others and it could result in you having to struggle against discrimination or just becoming a de-facto spokesperson taking time and energy away from your work.

We also don't know how much time there is, acceptance is accelerating, but if sexism is anything to go by rapid gains will be made but full practical equality may still take a long time. So there's no way to be sure if by the time you have achieved greatness there wouldn't be much impact left from coming out or if it will still make a difference.

That isn't an easy call to make. And you do have a right to privacy.
As i have pointed out to others though, you can do a lot for other Tans person just by being a good ally. Closeted or stealth Trans people will still encounter cis people who are transphobic or systemic issues that discriminate against Trans people. And you can watch for any opportunities where you could, if you chose to, come out to maximum impact later in life.

If you can support other Trans people as you go, helping other Trans people get through school, enter the field behind you and have safety and support as they study and go for work, that might be the most powerful thing you could do, and you don't need to be out personally to do that. Instead even if stealth you might help 10 out people get through those glass ceilings behind you, giving 10 times the impact your personal coming out now could provide.

originally posted by: AlongCamePaul
a reply to: Darth_Prime

Sexuality is a metal state... The physical reality of things is they were born a certain way, and although due to science we have been able to change the physical nature of things, there still exists on a chromosomal level the truth of the situation. Therefore claiming to be anything other than what you are born is a form of deception no matter what you felt you were or what you feel you are.

I do believe I have accurately described the difference between sexuality and gender. Thanks Darth.

Firstly actually FMRI scans have found cross-sex neurology in many Gay and Lesbian Brains.. which means sexuality and gender are linked but not the way many think, instead it suggests many gays and lesbians are a kind of Trans, not Trans a kind of Gay or Lesbian.

As for Chromosomes no chromosomes are not 'truth', they are guidelines really. For example a person may have XY chromosomes but Androgen Insensitivity, so despite that Y instead of a second X the person's body might develop female anyway either partially from PAIS (partial androgen insensitivity syndrome)or totally with CAIS (complete androgen insensitivity syndrome).

People are raised on a very simplified version of the biological reality these days, and school science is pretty weak alas so it's easier for people to pass subjects. But the reality is that biology has a lot more blurred lines than people have been generally aware of. And for fairness to exist the crucial absences of peoples knowledge need to be filled in. If there has been a deception it was in people being taught that XX always = female and XY always = male and never taught about XXY or XYY or PAIS or CAIS or Transgender etcetera.

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

You wanted a link to the brain studies? There's been many using dissection as well as FMRI scans. Here's one www.functionalneurology.com... and i can link you to more if you need them.

a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Actually as Transgender people always existed, went through a period of murderous slaughter and erasure from cultural life perpetrated by Cis people if there is a moral obligation to fix the problem it's on the head of the people who belong to the group that caused it.

Before the imposition of British Transphobia Native American peoples had Two-Spirit traditions. The reality that some people were Trans was always a apart of ordinary life. Around the whole world there were ways in which Transgender people were part of ordinary life, accepted and sometimes even privileged.

But groups of Cis people changed that. So the responsibility belongs to Cis people.

Furthermore Transgender people are potentially at risk from violent Cis people if they disclose even before sex. So the Cis person has the moral responsibility, not the Trans person.

So the moral obligation is up to a person who might not want to have sex with a Transgender or Intersex person to tell everyone they are about to sleep with (as anybody could be Transgender or Intersex) about their objection. Then the person may decide not to have sex with that person and if they decide not to then they still don't need to disclose whether or not they are Trans or Intersex, the risk to their lives entitles them to that privacy.

a reply to: Domo1

Well lets start with acknowledging that there's lots of straight men who have sex with Trans women while knowing all along they are Trans. They visit Trans sex workers, watch Trans erotic material, and seeing as Trans is genetic then they may have an innate attraction to Transgender.

Now those people do face prejudice. We can see that with the way those celebrities alleged to have had sex with Transgender women have been treated. But Eddie Murphy didn't kill himself, can we name any people or cite any reports of people who did kill themselves in such a situation?

I can't. And i certainly know of no studies showing a higher suicide rate than the national average for them. So we just have your assumption that they would kill themselves. And further that they would kill themselves at a comparable rate.

After all if we took a harm-minimisation ethic to this, if there was indeed a death toll such as you suggest there must be, if such a suicide-from-sex-with-Trans rate was lower than the rate of Trans people murdered for being Trans then we'd still have to say that the Trans women should not disclose to save their own lives even if it kills some cis men in the process. Only if the loss of cis lives was greater.. and maybe we'd need to measure it per-capita not comparing totals either) would the loss of Cis lives make the risk to Trans lives valid.

Now the question is, is there some secret slaughter of Cis suicide no-one has uncovered? Because unless there is a huge one we won't be able to say the Cis suicide risk is remotely as close to the Trans death risk.

As for classification.. you are too late that's been sorted already.

Cis woman, Trans woman, both sub-categories of Woman. And if you see a woman and assume they are Cis and not Trans, and they happen to be Trans, well then you made a mistake of assuming all Women are Cis women. But the Trans woman is still a Woman, just from the other sub-category. Intersex woman is also a sub-category of woman too.

originally posted by: Bayne
a reply to: JadeStar

In answer to your question, well that will depend a lot. There's a growing number of Trans and Intersex people transitioning in Academia, i know several who are Professors at Universities who've made significant contributions before transition (in one Intersex friends case her body changed all on it's own whether she wanted it or not). You'd need to find a way of determining how bad the glass ceiling(s) you'd face for being Trans in the area you think you can get far in will be and try and gauge the relative value of being out. If you come out now and there's not any/many other Trans people out around you, that could inspire others and it could result in you having to struggle against discrimination or just becoming a de-facto spokesperson taking time and energy away from your work.

We also don't know how much time there is, acceptance is accelerating, but if sexism is anything to go by rapid gains will be made but full practical equality may still take a long time. So there's no way to be sure if by the time you have achieved greatness there wouldn't be much impact left from coming out or if it will still make a difference.

That isn't an easy call to make. And you do have a right to privacy.

Thank you Bayne for your well thought out response. I am left with new ideas about whether to come out or how/when I would feel comfortable in doing so. I tend to agree. By the time when this might be a pressing issue for me personally, the world may have changed even more and things may already have progressed to the point where me coming out would not be a big deal at all.

I don't know if you know this but I attended the 225th American Astronomical Society (AAS) meeting in Seattle this past January and was surprised to see a session devoted to gender identity and diversity within the astronomical community. I attended it but I got that weird feeling like I often do when this subject comes up in my life in a place I did not expect to encounter it. Like "Omg, they're talking about me." even though of course they are not. I feel that fear goes back to childhood and being the first kid who was trans in my school, etc.

So transgender people in astronomy is something which is now being discussed in academic circles, as you mentioned, due to people coming out.

This was touched on in a wide-ranging discussion in this video featuring the president of the AAS Meg Urry (she starts talking about it at around minute 19:20 and mentions transgender people specifically at 27:40):



That was when I started wondering if I should write to Meg anonymously and ask her what she thought I should do. She would have a good background for advice because when she was an undergrad as i am now, women in astronomy were almost as unheard of as people who are transgender in astronomy.

As i have pointed out to others though, you can do a lot for other Trans person just by being a good ally. Closeted or stealth Trans people will still encounter cis people who are transphobic or systemic issues that discriminate against Trans people. And you can watch for any opportunities where you could, if you chose to, come out to maximum impact later in life.

That's what I have done so far when opportunities presented themselves here at school or in the workplace (ie: conversations around Caitlyn Jenner, the show Transparent, etc). I do it but always get a queasy feeling about it because I know that the most negative people wouldn't be talking the way they are around me if they knew my backstory. I'm cis to them and so I want to use my cis-priviledge to help but do so in a way which doesn't seem like I am too invested emotionally in these issues.

If you can support other Trans people as you go, helping other Trans people get through school, enter the field behind you and have safety and support as they study and go for work, that might be the most powerful thing you could do, and you don't need to be out personally to do that. Instead even if stealth you might help 10 out people get through those glass ceilings behind you, giving 10 times the impact your personal coming out now could provide.

That would be spectacular! I would love to do that! You have really blown open doors in my mind to opportunities to help "from behind the scenes", people who are out without being out myself.

Thank you SOOOOOOOOOOO much!