Two Questions for Transgender people

a reply to: EKron

This is one of the best things I've seen you post on this subject, tenth, and so true. FWIW, I don't think I've ever made anybody be disgusted and grossed out like the OP

To his credit, I don't think it's happened to him either. I believe, much like a lot of people, simply haven't been exposed in real life to people who have transitioned or are in the process.

I can understand why somebody would be apprehensive. It's like my father in law.

He was a complete and utter homophobe his entire life, until my husband came out of the closet in his mid 20's.

Once having sat down and conversed and understood what his son was going through, he came to terms with it. And today they are closer than ever. His only issue was lack of having ever spoken to a gay person that he respected or knew personally.

It's just a matter of perspectives IMO. Another thing to realize is that your community has not been well represented.

You've had extremists who don't bother with the education portion of their lives, only the complete and immediate understanding, and acceptance of who they are. And although that should be norm, regardless of gender identity or sexual orientation, it simply isn't and we live in a world of slow progress.

~Tenth

Gee wiz, some of your comments are starting to make me feel sorry for the OP. All he has done is asked two reasonable questions, trying to get some genuine understanding, trying be as PC as he possibly could with a touchy subject, and a couple of you are basically lynching him as a some sort of racist homophobe.

I totally understand what he us getting at, I'd feel the same.

If I did date, I would feel as if I had been lied to. I would want to know on the first date. Once told, I would be polite and respectful until the evening finished, shake hands and say goodnight. If that person wanted to remain friends, that would be fine, but that's how it would stay for me.

I am not homophobic in the slightest, my wife and I have a couple of friends who are gay, hell one of our kids friends transitioned to a girl at high school.

It just doesn't float my boat.

Just because someone has differing views to you doesn't make them wrong. We are not wired the same, so stop trying to make us into something we are not.

originally posted by: solarjetman
There are two issues that have been on my mind for some time that I just can't figure out, and I know if I posted this anywhere else I would be immediately vilified and labeled a bigot. I concede the following two questions come from a place of pure ignorance, and may likely even piss off and/or hurt feelings... but I would genuinely like to understand some things. My mind is an empty canvas and I promise my intentions are pure. End of disclaimer, here goes...

1. One argument folks generally make for LGBT rights is to let them be, they aren't bothering you, they aren't hurting you etc. which I totally understand in issues like gay marriage. They like what they like and can't help that; I get that. The thing with a transgender female (previously male), however, is, they COULD potentially hurt me as a straight male, who is attracted to women and repulsed by intimacy with men. If I dated a woman and kissed or got remotely intimate, and found out later that she had a sex change when she was 6 years old-- similar to the story currently floating around-- I would be FURIOUS to say the least. I would feel deeply violated and upset. So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)? Because it's my biological disposition to be repulsed by the thought of intimacy with a trans woman. Just as you can't help your feelings, I can't help mine...maybe some other straight guys beg to differ, but that's how I personally am wired, end of story.

Ok, i have to be brief as this is a very busy work week for me but as I have shared elsewhere on ATS (and most specifically the thread which Ekron pointed out where I and my parents talk about my early childhood) I am a young woman (20) who was born differently.

I can not tell you how everyone does things because everyone is different however. In my case I grew up as a girl from age 7, I postponed male puberty at 12-13 before cancelling it entirely by beginning estrogen hormone replacement therapy soon after, by 15-16 I had developed breasts and the other secondary sexual characteristics of other girls my age or slightly younger and at 17 I had full reassignment surgery.

I met my current boyfriend while in high school and as i was known as "the trans girl" I never had an option to hide my backstory from him even if I had wanted to. So he knew and we talked about it a little but mostly he just treated my like any other girl he had dated before we became serious later.

I have always been straight and attracted to straight male guys. But for the most part I've only been with him. We did have a period of time where we agreed to see other people when i left for college because we thought it would be healthy to do so. During that time I casually dated a couple of guys (not at the same time obviously) and being that no one knows my transsexual backstory unless I tell them I could have just not said anything.

The question every woman like me has to ask herself is when do you tell? Do you do so upon first meeting? Do you do it before you kiss? Do you do it before you become sexually intimate? etc

This answer is different for everyone but for me I was most comfortable being upfront so like with the one guy i told him at dinner on the first date. A week and a half went by before he called me back but he did and said it didn't matter he just saw me as another woman but he asked that I not mention it around his friends. Which was fine i guess?

The other guy I dated I told when he leaned in to kiss me at a movie. I whispered in his ear: "um, there's something you should know... i had began a sex-change when i was 7, i just want to make sure..."

before i could finish he just kissed me! just like that!

He was like "you're joking right? there's no way. i mean i had no idea but don't worry about it, and you ain't my first either."

Anyway maybe it's just Seattle but straight guys out here are pretty chill about the whole issue as far as I can tell. One reason for that might be because straight guys outnumber straight women. i forget the percentage but it's way skewed. the 2nd guy later said to me he was just happy i didn't whisper that i was lesbian.


The fact of the matter is those two guys and my current boyfriend (who i returned to after we decided we were happiest together) all just see me as a straight woman and so they don't have a problem i guess?

For you I think you probably can't get your head around the idea that transgender women ARE women so you focus more on what they may or may not have had between their legs rather than what has remained consistent between their ears....

2. When a two-year-old tells their parents that they feel like they're trapped inside another gender's body (which happened), could it be that perhaps society's crude gender roles need a deep examination rather than calling it an error in nature? I remember a study somewhere saying that little boys tend to actually be as emotional as little girls up until a certain age, when societal cues tell them all sorts of crap they must adhere to. I personally am equally annoyed by the hyper-masculine ideology of "manning up", sucking up emotions and never crying-- things like that-- as I am by the "girls belong in the kitchen" attitude, and strongly believe the world would be a MUCH better place if it were socially acceptable for men to feel more emotional and women to run things. In other words, if a little boy would rather play with dolls than trucks, maybe THAT should be okay and we instead break down patriarchal gender roles rather than questioning the predefined gender he associates with the most? Now, I know there's obviously much more to deciding to transition than that, but that seems to be the story that blogs and news always run with, so I'm trying to see how deep that really goes (for a two-year-old no less).

Well I can tell you from personal experience the sense of self is what told me that I was a girl. And that goes back as long as I can remember and even before that my mom and dad describe me as being feminine even before i was born (my mom says boys kick more, idk if that's true but she says i was fairly tranquil like when she was pregnant with my older sisters. btw: i'm the youngest in the family).

I don't know how much predefined gender roles would have mattered. I go with nature in this nature vs nurture question. My sisters say I was always more 'girlie-girl" than them even when i was being gender policed and forced into a boy role but especially after i was free from that and allowed to be myself from age 7 on.

Any THOUGHTFUL replies here would be quite appreciated. Please resist the temptation to act like this is Facebook and drop a nifty one-liner for infinite stars-- that's too easy and neutralizes any opportunity for meaningful dialogue. There are fewer and fewer places around where you can discuss sensitive social issues so freely, so for my sake and others, help keep it that way!

I hope that my answers could help. I really felt weird revealing my backstory on ATS. I felt like i was probably the only person of trans experience on ATS and i don't typically think of these issues day to day as I'm just an average young woman in college.

Hiya Solarjet,

Going to do that annoying quote thing just make sure the right questions are hit.

originally posted by: solarjetman
So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)?

Most studies in that area suggest that the break down is similar to cis heterosexual break downs with higher representations in bisexual and homosexual brackets.

I'd suggest your dilemma is no different from someone failing to tell you about their huge amount of debt, their fourth marriage, their drug addiction, their lottery winnings, or rare medical condition. People withhold information in relationships all the time.

Ideally if people were less hung up about it, it wouldn't be an issue.

When a two-year-old tells their parents that they feel like they're trapped inside another gender's body (which happened), could it be that perhaps society's crude gender roles need a deep examination rather than calling it an error in nature?

I'm going to ignore the two year old part because I believe it fogs the real discussion point some.

There is actually a debate within various schools of feminism as to whether transsexuals are welcome or not. Transsexual people, in some person's minds, require there to be a biological gender which doesn't go along with the 'culture as gender' argument. Some culture as gender people see transsexual persons as vital in breaking down the gender norms. Some actually have other much more negative views I'm sure you can work out from the above.

Short answer is welcome to the rabbit hole. Thanks for coming. Pull up a chair.

originally posted by: Pinke
Hiya Solarjet,

Going to do that annoying quote thing just make sure the right questions are hit.

originally posted by: solarjetman
So I guess my question is: once you go through the full transition, what comes next in terms of sexual expression? Do you look for a straight male partner (like most other women)?

Most studies in that area suggest that the break down is similar to cis heterosexual break downs with higher representations in bisexual and homosexual brackets.

I'd suggest your dilemma is no different from someone failing to tell you about their huge amount of debt, their fourth marriage, their drug addiction, their lottery winnings, or rare medical condition. People withhold information in relationships all the time.

I so :heart: your post. *star* for you.

a reply to: Pinke

There is actually a debate within various schools of feminism as to whether transsexuals are welcome or not.

That blows my mind. The amount of schisms present in the Feminist movement are impressive. For a group of people seeking acceptance and equality, they (some) sure do spend a lot of time debating who merits speaking in their presence.

Luckily, people are moving away from that, and Egalitarianism is slowly becoming the norm. Hell even the military admits that Transgender people have a place in the military.

That in itself is very impressive.

~Tenth

BTW: though i consider myself straight i would say that i'm probably 80% attracted to men, 20% attracted to women. I have never acted on the latter though I heard most people are kinda bi and that it's common for women to admit this than men?

But yes, gender and sexual orientation are two different things.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: Pinke

There is actually a debate within various schools of feminism as to whether transsexuals are welcome or not.

That blows my mind. The amount of schisms present in the Feminist movement are impressive. For a group of people seeking acceptance and equality, they (some) sure do spend a lot of time debating who merits speaking in their presence.

~Tenth

Watch the first episode of the Netflix Sci-Fi series Sense8. There is a scene in there which illustrates this. It caused me to cry because it brought back a sad memory of a certain lgbt group at my highschool.

Thank you all for your insightful perspectives, particularly from trans folks. Evidently I've pushed a few buttons, which wasn't my intention, although we all know how useless good intentions can be. I simply don't know any other way to ask the questions I've posed, but I would much rather air out whatever my hangups may be here and evolve into a genuine ally rather than blindly accept each issue du jour in spite of my confusions. So thanks to all who are meaningfully contributing to that process.

I'm going to refrain from commenting until I read the rest of the thread that was pointed out by EKron.

Those are some great questions. I am 100% with you on these points. I understand that I am ignorant about certain things but instead of "tongue policing" I would like somebody to engage in real discussion with me. Unfortunately when the intellectualism gets to a certain point, I'm afraid that even this crowd will vilify you without any critical thought.

Tenth said earlier that its "something you should discuss", as if the burden falls on the straight person. But I believe that the person who had the sex change should be the one to bring it up, naturally.

originally posted by: solarjetman
Thank you all for your insightful perspectives, particularly from trans folks. Evidently I've pushed a few buttons, which wasn't my intention, although we all know how useless good intentions can be. I simply don't know any other way to ask the questions I've posed, but I would much rather air out whatever my hangups may be here and evolve into a genuine ally rather than blindly accept each issue du jour in spite of my confusions. So thanks to all who are meaningfully contributing to that process.

I'm going to refrain from commenting until I read the rest of the thread that was pointed out by EKron.

Thank you. And if you have any further questions about that feel free to ask. I'm open and will not take offense to anything really unless you're intending to intentionally hurt me.

a reply to: prepared4truth

I could have worded that better.

I simply meant that if you don't know a person well enough for either of you to have that kind of discussion and decide to have sex, any subsequent surprises during or after is entirely the fault of both parties involved.

Tenth

originally posted by: prepared4truth
Tenth said earlier that its "something you should discuss", as if the burden falls on the straight person. But I believe that the person who had the sex change should be the one to bring it up, naturally.

I disagree. Unless that was relevant to a conversation such as perhaps having children etc. I personally feel more comfortable bringing it up myself before things proceed but you have to remember that we who have gone through this are all different and a lot of us, myself included just want to live our lives now. Transition for us means to go from being perceived as one thing to another, not necessarily to be perpetually considered something different or in between or not quite enough etc...

I mean i don't even think of myself first as trans, I just think of myself first as a woman unless the subject of transgender or transsexual people is being discussed. So and she might not be thinking of herself as trans and in that case it is up to the other person to bring the subject up with her.

I brought it up early in the two cases of the guys who otherwise would never have known because I rather know up front if they would have a hang up about it and I had plenty of other choices if they did.

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
a reply to: prepared4truth

I could have worded that better.

I simply meant that if you don't know a person well enough for either of you to have that kind of discussion and decide to have sex, any subsequent surprises during or after is entirely the fault of both parties involved.

Tenth

Agreed.

We're going through a lot of growing pains as a species due to our repression of sexuality for so long.

We've repressed talking, discussing, and addressing our sexual needs as humans due to reasons of "morality".

It's icky, gross, sinful, inappropriate!

No, it's mature and something we should have been working on dealing with for a long time. Homosexuality has been with us since we lived in caves, and gender-identity people have existed since then as well.

I, for one, am glad that humankind is finally growing up enough to start talking about this stuff and clearing away the fear and paranoia that surrounds the issue.

a reply to: prepared4truth

Unless you're planning on marrying the girl and want to have children with her, there really is no reason for the fact that she was born differently to come up. In most cases, you wouldn't even know. At all. There's no "right to know" if the person doesn't want to share that information with you.

By the way, color me among those concerned when the OP said he would be "FURIOUS" (all caps, his post). It's kind of scary when you see that and all the more incentive to conceal one's "natural" birth.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: prepared4truth

Unless you're planning on marrying the girl and want to have children with her, there really is no reason for the fact that she was born differently to come up. In most cases, you wouldn't even know. At all. There's no "right to know" if the person doesn't want to share that information with you.

By the way, color me among those concerned when the OP said he would be "FURIOUS" (all caps, his post). It's kind of scary when you see that and all the more incentive to conceal one's "natural" birth.

Personally I'd be so scared a guy might react like the OP. There are girls who are dead because of such guys sexual insecurity.

If I didn't have a boyfriend and had to date in some little town or even a big city not as educated as Seattle I'd be very worried.

I would love to not bring it up unless it was relevant. I'd prefer that but for my own safety I'd worry.

a reply to: JadeStar

You say that you would prefer never to have to mention it, but that you do out of fear for your safety.

That must have been a difficult thing to weigh up in your mind the first time you dealt with such a thing. I cannot imagine how tricky that must have been. Balancing ones need to be comfortable and happy, with the need to get that conversation out of the way must have put you over the wrack something awful. I am glad it worked out for you!

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: JadeStar

You say that you would prefer never to have to mention it, but that you do out of fear for your safety.

Yes. It makes me feel like they will see me differently after I tell if them even if they're ok with my backstory.

But in the case of those two guys I mentioned before I was scared that if they found out I could become a statistic. 1-in-12 transgender women are murdered in the U.S. And for transgender women of color that number is 1-in-8.

All it would take is a chance meeting with someone who I went to high school with so I didn't want to risk that.

That must have been a difficult thing to weigh up in your mind the first time you dealt with such a thing. I cannot imagine how tricky that must have been. Balancing ones need to be comfortable and happy, with the need to get that conversation out of the way must have put you over the wrack something awful. I am glad it worked out for you!

It is incredibly difficult. I hope I never have to date again.

Just to be clear since multiple people are bringing it up, I never once said that I would react with violence. I know this is a disturbing reality, and those who do react that way SUCK!! I personally would NEVER lay hands on a woman, even if they made me deeply furious or upset.

That's not to negate the way I would feel in that situation. I could laugh and cry with a transgender, I could hope and dream, dance and play with a transgender, loan money or bake a cake for one (once I learned how to do anything resembling cooking lol), have a deep meaningful conversation with one or have one look after my kids. Being intimate with one is just not an attractive thing to me ("repulsed" was too harsh, I apologize). If we're defining gender identity on a spectrum rather than as a binary, I suppose would be on one extreme of the spectrum? If other straight men are cool with it, then more power to them... I wish I could change my body to feel the same.

For you I think you probably can't get your head around the idea that transgender women ARE women so you focus more on what they may or may not have had between their legs rather than what has remained consistent between their ears....

Hmm.. I'm going to chew on that one for a while...