Two Questions for Transgender people

Here is opinion of a straight male from Serbia, place where acceptance and equality is still lagging behind more civilized countries but we are catching up.

First of all, please stop speaking for me. In another words using terms like "most straight males would do this or that" is silly. You can only speak for yourself and that's it.

Secondly, what "serious psychological effects" could you possibly have, that were not preexisting? I mean if you couldn't tell that a woman you just had sex with was born with a penis, what difference does it make? You are not gay, you did not just have sex with a guy. I know in your mind to you it would seem as if you've inserted your penis into another "penis" but the reality is you didn't. You will surely agree that for someone to go through all that that Jade went through, she must know with every fiber of her being that she is a woman.

Lets say you really, really like big, natural breasts. You meet a girl with biggest, nicest breasts you've ever seen. You fool around and later you find out that she wasn't born with them but had them inserted later in life and it was done so well that you couldn't tell. Would you have the same "serious psychological effects"? Why not? What is the difference between those two scenarios? After all, female breasts are also sexual organs.

Also, you guys sound as if someone is physically forcing you to have sex. Reality is sexual intercourse comes with many risks from unwanted pregnancies, STDs and, apparently to some, having sex with trans people. Out of those three, to me, the last one is by far the least worrisome. You can always chose celibacy and not have to worry about any of them.

You do also realize that the biggest, in not only, reason why they are so secretive about their past is because of the way society has been treating them? Try to imagine how it would feel for someone like Jade to hear terms like "not an authentic or genuine woman" as has been used in this thread. And that's mild, I am sure she's heard much worse. That is actually the root of your problem. No matter how good the operation was, no matter how much the brain scans show, to you she will never be an authentic woman. And I say "your problem" because that's what it is. It has noting to do with her. Do you ask every girl you are about to have sex with if she had her tonsils or appendix removed because, after all, if she did have them removed, she is not an "authentic" woman, the way she was born.

Imagine a scenario where a woman is attracted to a guy at work. They go out, she decides to tell him about her being born with penis, before anything happens. He flips out, tells everyone at work, starts bulling her, basically ruins her life. Unfortunately, that scenario is not really hard to imagine in today's society.
I can totally understand why many, in not all, trans people who, once they are done with transition, want to completely forget about that particular part of their past. If society was more accepting of them they would surely feel more open speaking about it.

I've never been in such a situation so I can't say with 100 percent certainty but I am fairly sure if I met a woman that is in every way perfect to me, fact that she had penis when she was born would be fairly easy hurdle to jump over.

a reply to: Bayne

I think you rather missed the point there.

What I am saying, is that I do not want anyone who has ever looked at themselves in the mirror, ever in their life, and had a single problem with what they saw beyond how bad their acne got in their thirteenth year, be that problem upset at the paucity of boobs, or upset that none will be forthcoming due to being born in the wrong body. I want a woman who has never had serious body image issues.

There are no trans women who did not start out having BIG body issues, like for example, not being in the right one for a start.

Where relationship material is concerned, that's an immediate HELL no for me. Like I say, I have put in enough damned time to know that there are some things that do not gel well, and for me, those who have image issues, or have had, tend to carry other psychological traits which do not synch correctly with a solid mentality.

a reply to: Crazy Diamond

I know in your mind to you it would seem as if you've inserted your penis into another "penis" but the reality is you didn't.

The reality is that you did.

When changing anatomical sex from male to female, the testicles are removed, and the skin of foreskin and penis is usually inverted, as a flap preserving blood and nerve supplies (a technique pioneered by Sir Harold Gillies in 1951), to form a fully sensitive vagina (vaginoplasty). A clitoris fully supplied with nerve endings (innervated) can be formed from part of the glans of the penis. If the patient has been circumcised (removal of the foreskin), or if the surgeon's technique uses more skin in the formation of the labia minora, the pubic hair follicles are removed from some of the scrotal tissue, which is then incorporated by the surgeon within the vagina. Other scrotal tissue forms the labia majora.

A transgender person is not the same as a cisgender person, and that's OK.

a reply to: Bayne

No you did not answer the question , all I saw was personal attacks and irrelevant retorts.

accepting having repressed trans-attraction is good for the people who are transphobes because they have repressed trans-attraction,

That has nothing todo with my question or statement and is a bunch of hogwash.

Having sex with someone knowing that you are not revealing something that could adversely effect the other person is wrong, period. Which you appear to have difficulty in answering , focusing on , or pointing out what is wrong with that statement that is NOT TRANSGENDER specific.

However, going with your logic: Again you are obviously aware that the other person could have some difficulty coming to terms with the circumstance regardless if its good for them in the long term .

So you are saying that you are willing to drop a bomb on them by forcing them to deal with it because in the long run its good for them and its not your problem that they have an issue.

Sorry , but still sounds rather irresponsible , selfish and uncaring way to help someone deal with their problem.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Crazy Diamond

I know in your mind to you it would seem as if you've inserted your penis into another "penis" but the reality is you didn't.

The reality is that you did.

When changing anatomical sex from male to female, the testicles are removed, and the skin of foreskin and penis is usually inverted, as a flap preserving blood and nerve supplies (a technique pioneered by Sir Harold Gillies in 1951), to form a fully sensitive vagina (vaginoplasty). A clitoris fully supplied with nerve endings (innervated) can be formed from part of the glans of the penis. If the patient has been circumcised (removal of the foreskin), or if the surgeon's technique uses more skin in the formation of the labia minora, the pubic hair follicles are removed from some of the scrotal tissue, which is then incorporated by the surgeon within the vagina. Other scrotal tissue forms the labia majora.

A transgender person is not the same as a cisgender person, and that's OK.

Technically you are right. But again, what does it matter? It surely doesn't resemble anything like a penis and apparently it is extremely close to actual vagina in every way. If it wasn't we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
Women without appendix are not the same as women with one, what's your point?

a reply to: interupt42

No you did not answer the question , all I saw was personal attacks and irrelevant retorts.

That seems to be all we're going to get.

I've been called a bigot, a transphobe, ignorant and probably a number of other things for simply stating that I wouldn't want to sleep with a transgender person. I've stated numerous times I don't have a problem with transgendered people, only that I do not think a trans* person is the same as a cisgendered person, because they aren't (and if they were there wouldn't even be a discussion).

I've seen other trans* people insulted, once in a particularly nasty way that has since been deleted.

The trans* advocates in this thread have done themselves and all trans* people an enormous disservice. Luckily most people here will realize this is a small minority of trans* people and not judge the whole group by the hateful nonsense in this thread.

The mental gymnastics to keep this up are just astounding. Anyone who doesn't agree fully and doesn't want to sleep with everyone is now a huge bigot, sexual orientation and preference are now bad, and people with a preference are suddenly mentally ill and should expect everyone to be transgendered or intersex. It's bizarre.

a reply to: TrueBrit

I know I said I was done, but considering you're one of the few with deep, inquisitive, thought-provoking posts; I just had to answer. In a way, I kind of felt for your quest there. It seems so... romantic.

Unfortunately, I do not think the woman you seek exists at all, so you may be dooming yourself to a life of solitude. This is genuine concern here. Every other woman I've known has felt some form of dissatisfaction with their body, whether it be over weight or hair or some other cosmetic feature. And, if you ever do encounter such an elusive woman, I'm not sure she'd be the type of person you'd want to be with in terms of personality; she'd likely be the most extreme of narcissists—more in love with herself than with you, that is if she even notices you at all.

I think your search might be a little unhealthy.

a reply to: Domo1

The trans* advocates in this thread have done themselves and all trans* people an enormous disservice. Luckily most people here will realize this is a small minority of trans* people and not judge the whole group by the hateful nonsense in this thread.

Couldn't agree with you more. Early in the thread to ~Tenth made the following comment which if this thread is any small indication of the community ,I can only imagine.

Another thing to realize is that your community has not been well represented.

I

a reply to: Crazy Diamond

This is why I used the analogy of a cheating spouse earlier. If the other spouse doesn't know, does that make it OK if the relationship was set up on the pretense that the couple be exclusive?

My point is that many people aren't aware they need to ask the question, the transgendered person is aware that they are different and many have a problem with that, so the transgendered person should disclose before things get sexual. Yes, that must be a terrible position to be in.

a reply to: Kojiro

There's a big difference between having no problem with how one looks, and being a narcissist.

Narcissist= looks amazing! All the time, loves themselves utterly, spends time in front of the mirror while furiously repressing the urge to self stimulate. Is not always successful in controlling their base instinct where that is concerned.

Realist= looks ok, is under no false impressions, and is not image obsessed at every moment of every day. Has other VASTLY more important things on their mind, like the way galaxies spin around their cores, and what that implies about the nature of space and time.

Do you follow the track I am taking here?

originally posted by: Bayne
But many Transgender people ARE steadfast in their gender identity since they could talk. That their body needed fixing has no bearing on the certainty of their minds. If anything you may find greater certainty in many Transgender people than in Cisgender ones when it comes to their gender identity.

^^^^THIS

It's not like you wake up someday and decide to become the opposite gender. I was raised a boy because nothing was known or accepted about this in the 1950's and 60's but even at that, my core sense of self and gender identity was the same as who I am today and have been for the last 40+ years. The outside is different than it was as a kid but the inside is still me.

Posted by True Brit

I have been through enough. All I want in life is a partner whose resolve is ironclad, and who has, since the moment they attained sentience, been steadfast in their understanding of themselves and utterly comfortable with what they found. That is the only deal breaker I have in my life now. I have never had a type, but I used to think it would be nice to be with a woman who likes the same sort of music as I do, or is interested in science and nature like I am. But the older I get, the more I realise all I want is a woman who shares that solidarity of self that comes of being comfortable from the get go, with being who they are, and never seeking to change themselves worth a damn.

Sounds like you're looking for someone who hasn't grown much in their life? I would certainly say my resolve is ironclad and that I have solidarity of self possibly even more than others because of the challenges faced and how they were addressed. I know who I am and my history demonstrates my resolve and adds depth to my character. I like all kinds of music, science and nature - maybe I'm your type?

Bayne, I like a lot of what you've had to say but don't know where you are getting your numbers from because they all seem high? 1/30 may be or have transgender feelings or aspirations but if you take 50,000 as the estimated number of post operative transsexual women in the US compared to the total cis female population, I think we're talking something higher than 1/30. I don't do math.

Personally, I think this whole transphobe should be the one to tell discussion kind of silly. Have I ever not told someone before being sexually intimate? Maybe a very few times a loooong time ago when I was young and stupid and living dangerously. Is my past something I bring up when first meeting someone and maybe having a make out session or two? Not usually but if it is going to go any further than that, definitely. The good thing for all those that may be concerned or shudder in horror at this, I'm 60 years old and not in the market and not looking to be so the world is safe.

OP and Bayne, check you U2U's.

originally posted by: Domo1
a reply to: Crazy Diamond

This is why I used the analogy of a cheating spouse earlier. If the other spouse doesn't know, does that make it OK if the relationship was set up on the pretense that the couple be exclusive?

My point is that many people aren't aware they need to ask the question, the transgendered person is aware that they are different and many have a problem with that, so the transgendered person should disclose before things get sexual. Yes, that must be a terrible position to be in.

Except in your analogy, cheating spouse has choice to cheat or not to cheat. Transgender person does not have choice to be or not to be.
And why do you keep saying they are different as if it were a fact. Sure, they are different the same way with my appendix example. But transgender women, to some people, are for all intents and purposes simply women.

I think we have to look at from both perspectives...

as a trans Man or Woman, you have to understand that they have always been a Man or Woman, so after fulling transitioning they are what they always been so why would they believe or act otherwise?

Everyone thinks differently, some are completely open about it, and some don't feel they have to authenticate themselves because they are who they have always been Either Man or Woman the Trans label is not needed.

Now, at the same time looking at it from the opposite side, finding out about it deeper into the relationship may be harder or a lot to take in at the moment, that doesn't mean you are automatically a 'transphobic'

i personally would be up front and open about it, that is just me though there is no "Rule" and there shouldn't be any "Shaming" it's a personal decision

a question is though how would you know? would you ask every Woman if they are Transgender?

So I want to say something really quick here about what I think was the second post I made in this thread. I was being an asshole, and I'm actually going to alert the mods to it. I did indeed say some things that were rather nasty out of frustration, and for that I am genuinely sorry.

Here is a potentially controversial article. i'm sharing it for conversation

www.transadvocate.com...

originally posted by: TrueBrit
a reply to: Bayne

I feel conflicted, because I know myself well enough to be absolutely clear about my needs, but am now worried that a preference for persons who are not transgendered as a sexual partner, would mark me out as trans phobic, and I am not a hater. Never have been.

Im back and hopefully I don't get attacked LOL. I don't think that it would label you as one. It is just your preference... and I think there is nothing wrong with that.

I personally like to exclusively date Caucasian guys.. does that make me a racist? Absolutely not! I respect all races. However, my attraction as a female is to only white guys. You have to be both emotionally and sexually attracted to someone.

I hope that Trapped Princess finds the courage to continue being who she is without insulting us "real women" as she quotes us.. I never intended to knock her hustle down !

originally posted by: Darth_Prime

i personally would be up front and open about it, that is just me though there is no "Rule" and thee shouldn't be any "Shaming" it's a personal decision

Secrets of any kind don't benefit any serious relationship.

How deep the details go is another matter. Like, most people these days has had prior sexual relationships. I think it's OK for a partner to be curious --- you know, the casual questions. But, if partner starts pressing for more detailed info --- get rid of them.

I think if the relationship is serious, intent to be long term, a transgender should probably reveal that information. If the partner is a little shocked and curious, that would be normal. However, following that --- if partner doesn't say "I love you for who you are, and if you CHOOSE to talk more about it I'm open to listening" --- show them the door.

a reply to: Annee

Exactly!

Good words, and Good advice

a reply to: TrueBrit

I suppose I am. In any case, I think you might be missing the forest for the trees. Most of us feel quite satisfied with our bodies after we've transitioned and then do go on with VASTLY more important things. Look at EKron for example; she transitioned at 20 and then went on to be a good wife, raised children, and didn't look back. She's a grandmother now. Only these recent threads have brought her reluctantly into the topic again.

Still, I hope you find what you're looking for. It doesn't sound like it will be very easy.

I want to revisit this question Bayne posted earlier:

What upsets you more, that someone you dated might have been born with a girls brain and always was a girl on the inside but may have had their body changed so it matched who they really were or that they were born with a girls body but was a guy on the inside the whole time?

Truthfully I think most of the controversy in this thread is less Transphobia and moreso Penisphobia. Think about it...