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The Ban On Transgender Individuals In The Military May Soon Be Lifted

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posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc
What advantages does SRS bring the service? Especially when we are in a drawdown and turning people away/and using any medical issue to discharge over?


Not having "in-betweens" joining up and freaking people out maybe?




posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:32 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?


No. The military is not in the business to provide SRS surgery. Medical care is one of the biggest expenses to DOD and we don't need to add more expense onto it.



Did you see the part where it was not coming out of the medical fund but the GI Bill funds?


Different pots of money. You really don't know how the military works do you?


And when the GI Bill funds come up short? The hullaballo about that? When the transgender demands (and they will) that they or their kids should get the GI education funds too?



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:34 PM
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originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Maybe your experience may not necessarily be the only valid one or even the norm. Gender Dysphoria by its very nature is well... dysphoric. If you were perfectly ok with being forced to be a male soldier either your gender dysphoria wasn't very intense or you were just able to bare it better.

But that should not be the baseline for how to set policy in my opinion.





Also nobody would be forced to do anything, if you want to join and you know the rules and you are willing to deal with them then in you go. I love smoking pot but I gave that up for 4 years, not once ever did I even get tempted.



Some people for socio-economic reasons have little options available to improve their life's situation other than joining the military.

Did you seriously equate being transexual with smoking pot? I may have to stop reading Princess.




a reply to: JadeStar


Look at like this lets say you have a young 17 yr trans-man that has no real family because they disowned him and the only chance he has at escaping his current turmoil would be the military. He could go in as a female albeit a butch girl suck it up and play the role for 4 years knowing that the current equality policies have improved immensely over the years. After contractual agreement is up he now has the money he needs to pursue his personal journey of self development and by the age of 21 maybe 22. I know many would jump at this opportunity.


Do you know many trans girls who would?


However, the job of the military is not to help people on their journies of self discovery nor is it supposed to be a financial out. Although those things do happen, they are not the reason why the military exists and those who go with that with the sole intention usually do not do well.

If one makes the military into a means to continue with SRS, you will have a lot of people coming who neither really want to be there and will not be able to adjust.

"I only signed up for the college money" is already an oft-heard cry of those who are not adjusting/don't really want to be there/not hacking it.


To this I say stop worrying about why different people join for different reasons its none of your effing business. I joined for college money and to actually get to blow stuff up LEGALLY and I did just fine. I didn't stay because I had other things to do with my civilian freedom. I hate when people try to judge your reason for joining, it is silly as long as the individual can preform their job and not endanger others. Nobody EVER got hit by an IED on MY PATROLS. I have also heard one particularly ignorant individual say that they joined so they could "kill a punjab" as they put it. Now his reason for joining i judge but if you want to better yourself somehow by joining then more power to you.


Actually, motivation for joining is exactly something that commanders and planners need to consider. Motivation for staying and leaving are discussed all of the time in retention meetings. These are issues that are proper to consider and should be considered by leadership.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:36 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
What advantages does SRS bring the service? Especially when we are in a drawdown and turning people away/and using any medical issue to discharge over?


Not having "in-betweens" joining up and freaking people out maybe?


That's rather prejudiced isn't it? Trappedprincess was a good Marine by accounts, even if he wasn't "all of the way done."



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:41 PM
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See this is why I get upset "one of my own" saying that people like me freak people out because we haven't had a surgery. RIIIIIIIIIIGHT cuz girlfriend I'll tell you that most of those that would be freaked out by me would be just as freaked out by you provided you are honest and upfront of course. Not that you have to be honest or upfront now do you? You had everything done early so you can blend in stealth mode and never reveal yourself if you don't want to. Some of us may not have that luxury so I guess we will just have to go about and freak people out.

a reply to: JadeStar


I also think you may have invented a new slur "In betweens" Yep thats pretty offensive.
edit on CDTTue, 14 Jul 2015 13:52:41 -0500pmppAmerica/Chicago14-05:00Tue, 14 Jul 2015 13:52:41 -050052 by TrappedPrincess because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:45 PM
link   

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?


No. The military is not in the business to provide SRS surgery. Medical care is one of the biggest expenses to DOD and we don't need to add more expense onto it.



Did you see the part where it was not coming out of the medical fund but the GI Bill funds?


Different pots of money. You really don't know how the military works do you?


And when the GI Bill funds come up short? The hullaballo about that? When the transgender demands (and they will) that they or their kids should get the GI education funds too?


I touched on this myself knowing that the average cost of SRS is about $32,000 USD and each individuals G.I. Bill (amounting $80,000 in available funds) is more than enough to cover the cost of SRS post service of course and still have some left over for school.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:46 PM
link   

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
What advantages does SRS bring the service? Especially when we are in a drawdown and turning people away/and using any medical issue to discharge over?


Not having "in-betweens" joining up and freaking people out maybe?


That's rather prejudiced isn't it? Trappedprincess was a good Marine by accounts, even if he wasn't "all of the way done."


Ill take no offense to "HE" only because at the time of reference I was pretty much all "HE" 24/7 unfortunately.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:52 PM
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Transgender folk serve in the British Army and they get their surgery (taxpayer funded) on the NHS.
As a citizen of the UK I support that, I am also pleased such things are no big deal over here these days.
I would not want to be transgendered in the US, if only from reading topics on ATS.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?


No. The military is not in the business to provide SRS surgery. Medical care is one of the biggest expenses to DOD and we don't need to add more expense onto it.



Did you see the part where it was not coming out of the medical fund but the GI Bill funds?


Different pots of money. You really don't know how the military works do you?


And when the GI Bill funds come up short? The hullaballo about that? When the transgender demands (and they will) that they or their kids should get the GI education funds too?


I touched on this myself knowing that the average cost of SRS is about $32,000 USD and each individuals G.I. Bill (amounting $80,000 in available funds) is more than enough to cover the cost of SRS post service of course and still have some left over for school.


Which gets back to the point--what benefit is it to the service to provide SRS surgery and the medications that follow? Why take on a person who already requires chronic medicines when they can have their pick at the moment of a pool of people without chronic medical needs?



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:52 PM
link   

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc
What advantages does SRS bring the service? Especially when we are in a drawdown and turning people away/and using any medical issue to discharge over?


Not having "in-betweens" joining up and freaking people out maybe?


That's rather prejudiced isn't it? Trappedprincess was a good Marine by accounts, even if he wasn't "all of the way done."


Ill take no offense to "HE" only because at the time of reference I was pretty much all "HE" 24/7 unfortunately.

None intended.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:02 PM
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Your missing the point, I'm saying that "what they could possibly implement" could be that a person can opt to have a portion of their G.I. Bill go to the SRS not HRT while in. I said if a "in between" as I have been called can suck it up for an enlistment and do their job then why could they not use money that is theirs anyway? I'm not saying it should be this way or is going to, all I'm saying is it could be a possible scenario.

a reply to: NavyDoc



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:10 PM
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originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Everyone's different. You apparently had a lot of strength to pull off what you did, but I think you might be in the minority and it would be poor practice to set the standard by the minority.

I'm... well acquainted with a transgendered woman who's developed severe mental health issues because she's gone so long unable to live as her true self. She's in her early thirties now and is currently making plans to finally rectify that. Nevertheless, there was a period where she was considering joining the Marines because of her MCJROTC classes in high school. She was pretty good in that class, obedient, well disciplined. Nevertheless, she realized that with all of her mental issues that had developed over the years plus that frustrating mismatch between her mind and body while participating in a hypermasculine environment, she'd probably snap on the battlefield and thus be a risk to her country.

So she avoided the military altogether after she left high school. It would have been interesting to know the woman who'd been allowed to transition and serve. She'd probably have a better opinion of herself now.
edit on 7/14/2015 by Kojiro because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:11 PM
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originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
Your missing the point, I'm saying that "what they could possibly implement" could be that a person can opt to have a portion of their G.I. Bill go to the SRS not HRT while in. I said if a "in between" as I have been called can suck it up for an enlistment and do their job then why could they not use money that is theirs anyway? I'm not saying it should be this way or is going to, all I'm saying is it could be a possible scenario.

a reply to: NavyDoc



Oh, I see what you mean. Sure, I can't see a medical impediment if it was given as a post enlistment benefit and the costs were absorbed somewhere else. Although, why this and not other medical benefits post enlistment?

BTW, I started my career as an enlisted 0311, so I like my Marines.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:13 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

I agree, but believe as a former military wife with a retire marine husband, rules will be plenty, vague and very complicated, that is how the government and specially the military like their crap.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:14 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Everyone's different. You apparently had a lot of strength to pull off what you did, but I think you might be in the minority and it would be poor practice to set the standard by the minority.

I'm... well acquainted with a transgendered woman who's developed severe mental health issues because she's gone so long unable to live as her true self. She's in her early thirties now and is currently making plans to finally rectify that. Nevertheless, there was a period where she was considering joining the Marines because of her MCJROTC classes in high school. She was pretty good in that class, obedient, well disciplined. Nevertheless, she realized that with all of her mental issues that had developed over the years plus that frustrating mismatch between her mind and body while participating in a hypermasculine environment, she'd probably snap on the battlefield and thus be a risk to her country.

So she avoided the military altogether after she left high school. It would have been interesting to know the woman who'd been allowed to transition and serve. She'd probably have a better opinion of herself now.


Was it a case of male wanting to go female or the other way around?

What is the politically correct terms for a male wanting to transition to a female but hasn't yet to use without causing offense?

It can get confusing because, in your post above, it's hard to sort out where she was at the time and where she wanted to go and how that was an impediment.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:22 PM
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If only, if the military agree with the transgender go ahead, doesn't a person that's in transition for gender "re assignation" would be considered disable as their needs will be for life after they serve in the military?, I mean look at vets, even when my husband served until retirement and had the entry in his records from the first gulf war, he, until this day has never been on disability and on top of that was unlucky to sign in before the GI bill was changed so no even that was available to him.

So I wonder how will this play out if the government decided to be completely open when it comes to transgenders and will accept all.
edit on 14-7-2015 by marg6043 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Kojiro

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Everyone's different. You apparently had a lot of strength to pull off what you did, but I think you might be in the minority and it would be poor practice to set the standard by the minority.

I'm... well acquainted with a transgendered woman who's developed severe mental health issues because she's gone so long unable to live as her true self. She's in her early thirties now and is currently making plans to finally rectify that. Nevertheless, there was a period where she was considering joining the Marines because of her MCJROTC classes in high school. She was pretty good in that class, obedient, well disciplined. Nevertheless, she realized that with all of her mental issues that had developed over the years plus that frustrating mismatch between her mind and body while participating in a hypermasculine environment, she'd probably snap on the battlefield and thus be a risk to her country.

So she avoided the military altogether after she left high school. It would have been interesting to know the woman who'd been allowed to transition and serve. She'd probably have a better opinion of herself now.


Was it a case of male wanting to go female or the other way around?

What is the politically correct terms for a male wanting to transition to a female but hasn't yet to use without causing offense?

It can get confusing because, in your post above, it's hard to sort out where she was at the time and where she wanted to go and how that was an impediment.


I used her preferred gender all throughout that post. If it was the other way around, I would have said "he." It's "politically correct" to use the gender pronoun the person is transitioning to.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:27 PM
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originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
See this is why I get upset "one of my own" saying that people like me freak people out because we haven't had a surgery. RIIIIIIIIIIGHT cuz girlfriend I'll tell you that most of those that would be freaked out by me would be just as freaked out by you provided you are honest and upfront of course. Not that you have to be honest or upfront now do you? You had everything done early so you can blend in stealth mode and never reveal yourself if you don't want to. Some of us may not have that luxury so I guess we will just have to go about and freak people out.

a reply to: JadeStar


I also think you may have invented a new slur "In betweens" Yep thats pretty offensive.


I'm so sorry. I did not be insensitive or offensive. And i certainly did not mean "in betweens" to be a slur. What i meant was you have to see it fromt he other side. Look we, you and I are a minority. And as women born differently we'd be a minority within a minority (women in the military in general are a minority).

So try to see it from the majority view. You and I are both sisters of a different kind but like, you were able to tolerate being forced into being male and was even able to serve in the military, a hyper-masculine part of society.

I was not able to tolerate being forced to be something I wasn't and was deeply depressed as a result so at 7 things changed and my life remarkably began to improve.

To majority cisnormative society we are the same. But you and I both know we are different.

The problem is that the military is not the place for that difference to become a problem.

Imagine for a moment you had been more like me and had postponed male puberty and started hormone therapy in your teens but instead of having SRS as I did you for so reason didn't.

Now you want to join the military and insist they take you.

Who do you share barracks with? Which facilities do you use?

How would the people around you feel about that? How would you feel about that?

To the military you'd represent almost a third gender when they are set up for two.

So that's why I said the military was not a place for those in-between. I'm sorry if you find this offensive but as it is today it is not. Maybe in the future it might be but it's not set up logistically to deal with someone who is trans who has not had SRS.
edit on 14-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:29 PM
link   

originally posted by: Kojiro

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Everyone's different. You apparently had a lot of strength to pull off what you did, but I think you might be in the minority and it would be poor practice to set the standard by the minority.

I'm... well acquainted with a transgendered woman who's developed severe mental health issues because she's gone so long unable to live as her true self. She's in her early thirties now and is currently making plans to finally rectify that. Nevertheless, there was a period where she was considering joining the Marines because of her MCJROTC classes in high school. She was pretty good in that class, obedient, well disciplined. Nevertheless, she realized that with all of her mental issues that had developed over the years plus that frustrating mismatch between her mind and body while participating in a hypermasculine environment, she'd probably snap on the battlefield and thus be a risk to her country.

So she avoided the military altogether after she left high school. It would have been interesting to know the woman who'd been allowed to transition and serve. She'd probably have a better opinion of herself now.


Maybe your right, I can be harsh as I have no patience or tolerance for weakness especially of the mental variety.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 02:32 PM
link   

originally posted by: Kojiro

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Kojiro

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Everyone's different. You apparently had a lot of strength to pull off what you did, but I think you might be in the minority and it would be poor practice to set the standard by the minority.

I'm... well acquainted with a transgendered woman who's developed severe mental health issues because she's gone so long unable to live as her true self. She's in her early thirties now and is currently making plans to finally rectify that. Nevertheless, there was a period where she was considering joining the Marines because of her MCJROTC classes in high school. She was pretty good in that class, obedient, well disciplined. Nevertheless, she realized that with all of her mental issues that had developed over the years plus that frustrating mismatch between her mind and body while participating in a hypermasculine environment, she'd probably snap on the battlefield and thus be a risk to her country.

So she avoided the military altogether after she left high school. It would have been interesting to know the woman who'd been allowed to transition and serve. She'd probably have a better opinion of herself now.


Was it a case of male wanting to go female or the other way around?

What is the politically correct terms for a male wanting to transition to a female but hasn't yet to use without causing offense?

It can get confusing because, in your post above, it's hard to sort out where she was at the time and where she wanted to go and how that was an impediment.


I used her preferred gender all throughout that post. If it was the other way around, I would have said "he." It's "politically correct" to use the gender pronoun the person is transitioning to.


Right. Which kind of makes it confusing without qualifiers.



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