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The Ban On Transgender Individuals In The Military May Soon Be Lifted

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posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 10:55 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Here's some interesting news coming out. Apparently the military is finalizing plans to lift the ban against transgenders from joining and serving. This makes the last sexuality barrier being removed from the military and finally everyone will be able to enlist and serve regardless of what team they are batting for or what they look like.

The Ban On Transgender Individuals In The Military May Soon Be Lifted



This is a relief to me and many others. When I was little I often thought about space and would have wanted to be an astronaut but knowing that at least then most astronauts had military training I instead focused on astronomy because I thought that they would not allow me to join. I've participated in summer programs for students at a NASA facility which is on land shared with the US Air Force and it always creeped me out a little that somehow, someone in the military might find out that until age 7 I had to live as a and was forced to pretend I was boy and kick me out of the program because it was on USAF property or something.
edit on 14-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)




posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 11:05 AM
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originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 11:09 AM
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originally posted by: Cuervo
a reply to: EKron

I didn't even realize we were referring to you, hah!

In any case, you should never feel obligated to stand as a paragon for TG folks. It's not your responsibility and I'm sure you've paid your dues back in the day. 40 years from now, I hope I can say the same.

An important thing I've learned about dysphoria is that my experience is not universal. Some people experience it as a social aspect and simply need to live as the correct gender and, for others (like me), it's more of an anatomical issue and SRS is a priority and socializing as a woman is lower on my needs list. I definitely don't think it applies universally like I used to.

EKron, your experience in this is invaluable for the community and I think part of the value is seeing a woman who's left it all in the past. It's encouraging. So please don't ever feel bad for your distancing.


I agree. If it had not been for Ekron I don't think I'd have been so comfortable sharing more about my personal history with ATS. Even if she had not come out, just knowing she existed here along with you and Trapped Princess when first Ekron U2Ued me just made me think "OMG! There are like 4 or 5 of us on ATS!!!! i'm not so alone!
"

I am so grateful for all of you ladies. Our experiences and ages even are vastly different but that's why our perspectives are EQUALLY valuable.

One thing i have been wondering though....are there any FTMs on ATS? If so i'd love to hear from you. if you don't feel comfortable being out on ATS please U2U me i will never divulge who you are or anything else to anyone.
edit on 14-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 11:16 AM
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originally posted by: marg6043
Also I will be very upset if the military change their rules and allow in transition for gender resignation recruits so they can finish their surgeries at the expenses of tax payers

Think people, I am all for already gender designated people that has gone throughout their psychological, hormonal and surgery resignation and procedures, but what about using the military to pay for that at the expenses of tax payers, these procedures takes time, years lots of psychological therapies and it cost a lot of money.

It has to be rules.


The rules would be:

1) Recruit has completed 2 years of psychological therapy and living in the world as the gender they are transitioning to.

2) Recruit must have SRS performed no sooner than 2 years prior to joining the service.

3) Recruit would not be eligible for college funds. The SRS fund would be the same as the college fund but paid prior to joining rather than during or after service.

In other words. You'd have to already be living your true gender and you'd get your SRS in lieu of college grants



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 11:19 AM
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They could do it like if you haven't had the surgery or started HRT then you could go through as one or the other. Then when separating you could opt to have a portion of what would be your G.I. Bill to specifically cover those costs instead of school maybe. Besides these days It's not like anyone would be allowed to discriminate on you for being in the middle on your own time as long as you follow regulations.

reply to: JadeStar


Maybe they would pay after service is my point Jade because they would NEVER pay for something that costly before they have gotten theirs out of you. It would be a just reward as opposed to an enticing incentive that afterwards one could just renig and go AWOL. Too risky never happen.
edit on CDTTue, 14 Jul 2015 11:22:20 -0500amppAmerica/Chicago14-05:00Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:22:20 -050022 by TrappedPrincess because: (no reason given)

edit on CDTTue, 14 Jul 2015 11:24:44 -0500amppAmerica/Chicago14-05:00Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:24:44 -050024 by TrappedPrincess because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
They could do it like if you haven't had the surgery or started HRT then you could go through as one or the other.


Yes. I could see where that might work too. But there would have to be extensive psychological testing to ensure that such a person's gender dysphoria would not effect their job performance because the military would be:

a) effectively forcing a person to live in the gender which they feel they are not for the length of their service

and

b) becoming legally responsible for doing a.


Having written that i don't know now that i think about it, that your idea seems like a good idea.

All it would take would be one person to go off the deep end to wreck the entire policy and perhaps affect those who have already had surgery as well.



Then when separating you could opt to have a portion of what would be your G.I. Bill to specifically cover those costs instead of school maybe. Besides these days It's not like anyone would be allowed to discriminate on you for being in the middle on your own time as long as you follow regulations.


Right.


Maybe they would pay after service is my point Jade because they would NEVER pay for something that costly before they have gotten theirs out of you.


I don't know about that. I've heard are some federal programs in engineering, advanced computer science, nanotechnology and others (not military mind you) which you are paid for your education before you join the ranks of the federal agency. So this would not be unprecedented.

If you go AWOL then you get to spend some time in a federal prison.



It would be a just reward as opposed to an incisive incentive that afterwards one could just renig and go AWOL. Too risky never happen.


It should not be considered a reward or an incentive Princess. It's a necessity and forcing someone who may be already depressed perhaps become even more depressed for example in the case of a trangender woman being forced into a hyper masculine role as a military dude would be counterproductive and perhaps even dangerous to her job and the safety of those around her.

Not everyone is the same. Maybe you could go through all that with no problems but there are some who would be wrecked.

Also if you could get your surgery paid for before joining that would allow young people perhaps in ROTC to fully transition before graduating high school.
edit on 14-7-2015 by JadeStar because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.

Also nobody would be forced to do anything, if you want to join and you know the rules and you are willing to deal with them then in you go. I love smoking pot but I gave that up for 4 years, not once ever did I even get tempted.


a reply to: JadeStar


Look at like this lets say you have a young 17 yr trans-man that has no real family because they disowned him and the only chance he has at escaping his current turmoil would be the military. He could go in as a female albeit a butch girl suck it up and play the role for 4 years knowing that the current equality policies have improved immensely over the years. After contractual agreement is up he now has the money he needs to pursue his personal journey of self development and by the age of 21 maybe 22. I know many would jump at this opportunity.
edit on CDTTue, 14 Jul 2015 11:46:15 -0500amppAmerica/Chicago14-05:00Tue, 14 Jul 2015 11:46:15 -050046 by TrappedPrincess because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 12:59 PM
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originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Maybe your experience may not necessarily be the only valid one or even the norm. Gender Dysphoria by its very nature is well... dysphoric. If you were perfectly ok with being forced to be a male soldier either your gender dysphoria wasn't very intense or you were just able to bare it better.

But that should not be the baseline for how to set policy in my opinion.





Also nobody would be forced to do anything, if you want to join and you know the rules and you are willing to deal with them then in you go. I love smoking pot but I gave that up for 4 years, not once ever did I even get tempted.


Some people for socio-economic reasons have little options available to improve their life's situation other than joining the military.

Did you seriously equate being transexual with smoking pot? I may have to stop reading Princess.




a reply to: JadeStar


Look at like this lets say you have a young 17 yr trans-man that has no real family because they disowned him and the only chance he has at escaping his current turmoil would be the military. He could go in as a female albeit a butch girl suck it up and play the role for 4 years knowing that the current equality policies have improved immensely over the years. After contractual agreement is up he now has the money he needs to pursue his personal journey of self development and by the age of 21 maybe 22. I know many would jump at this opportunity.


Do you know many trans girls who would?



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:02 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?


No. The military is not in the business to provide SRS surgery. Medical care is one of the biggest expenses to DOD and we don't need to add more expense onto it.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: JadeStar

I wanted to be an astronaut when I was younger too, but I can see how you'd feel a bit more trepidation surrounding this than I did. The only thing preventing me from obtaining this is the fact that I wouldn't be able to pass the Air Force physical for a pilot since I have to wear corrective lenses.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:03 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

The military pays for corrective eye surgery.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:05 PM
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originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Maybe your experience may not necessarily be the only valid one or even the norm. Gender Dysphoria by its very nature is well... dysphoric. If you were perfectly ok with being forced to be a male soldier either your gender dysphoria wasn't very intense or you were just able to bare it better.

But that should not be the baseline for how to set policy in my opinion.





Also nobody would be forced to do anything, if you want to join and you know the rules and you are willing to deal with them then in you go. I love smoking pot but I gave that up for 4 years, not once ever did I even get tempted.


Some people for socio-economic reasons have little options available to improve their life's situation other than joining the military.

Did you seriously equate being transexual with smoking pot? I may have to stop reading Princess.




a reply to: JadeStar


Look at like this lets say you have a young 17 yr trans-man that has no real family because they disowned him and the only chance he has at escaping his current turmoil would be the military. He could go in as a female albeit a butch girl suck it up and play the role for 4 years knowing that the current equality policies have improved immensely over the years. After contractual agreement is up he now has the money he needs to pursue his personal journey of self development and by the age of 21 maybe 22. I know many would jump at this opportunity.


Do you know many trans girls who would?


However, the job of the military is not to help people on their journies of self discovery nor is it supposed to be a financial out. Although those things do happen, they are not the reason why the military exists and those who go with that with the sole intention usually do not do well.

If one makes the military into a means to continue with SRS, you will have a lot of people coming who neither really want to be there and will not be able to adjust.

"I only signed up for the college money" is already an oft-heard cry of those who are not adjusting/don't really want to be there/not hacking it.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:06 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: NavyDoc

The military pays for corrective eye surgery.


In order to make them better able to do their jobs. An infantryman or pilot who does not need corrective lenses is more capable than those who do. Apples and kumquats.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:09 PM
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a reply to: NavyDoc

The way that MY unit pitched it to me is that you just ask your unit commander for the surgery and they sign off on it because the Army offers it. By the way, I did Field Artillery and all you needed to do was drive the track vehicle to a spot, close ALL the windows and hatches, program the coordinates into a computer, hit the button then wait for things to blow up. Not much eyesight required there at all.

Also, you can't be a pilot in the Air Force while having corrective lenses. So I'm pretty sure that very few pilots are electing for that elective surgery in the military.
edit on 14-7-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:14 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: NavyDoc

The way that MY unit pitched it to me is that you just ask your unit commander for the surgery and they sign off on it because the Army offers it. By the way, I did Field Artillery and all you needed to do was drive the track vehicle to a spot, close ALL the windows and hatches, program the coordinates into a computer, hit the button then wait for things to blow up. Not much eyesight required there at all.

Also, you can't be a pilot in the Air Force while having corrective lenses. So I'm pretty sure that very few pilots are electing for that elective surgery in the military.


Actually, you now can. Not lazik but radial keratotomy. Also divers and SEALs now.

The advantages of correcting vision as being an improvement of the troop is obvious--no more struggling with glasses to get a gas mask on, no more struggling to find your glasses during the alert at night, no more worry about issuing glasses, no more special glasses for gas masks/prescription lens insert and you do not need a continued supply of any medication to keep the eyes functional.

What advantages does SRS bring the service? Especially when we are in a drawdown and turning people away/and using any medical issue to discharge over?
edit on 14-7-2015 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)

edit on 14-7-2015 by NavyDoc because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:19 PM
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the military.

Did you seriously equate being transexual with smoking pot? I may have to stop reading Princess.





What I was referring to was self control and accountability. I really don't care if you stop reading I already know we are very polarized on this issue. I would not want to serve with overly sensitive people for starters so if you can't handle your shi... and maintain maybe you don't belong in the military trans or not. I will also reiterate that the military will NEVER pay for any procedures prior to enlistment NEVER. I've known guys who got kicked out in boot camp because of dental issues. They were told go get them fixed on YOUR OWN dime and you can come back and try again. That kid wanted to be a Marine some kind of bad because honey he got his grill fixed and came back.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:23 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?


No. The military is not in the business to provide SRS surgery. Medical care is one of the biggest expenses to DOD and we don't need to add more expense onto it.



I don't agree with you often but here I do.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:26 PM
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I can see this causing a lot of ruffled feathers in the barracks,some guys realy wont know what to say or do lol.would make for some interesting moments i bet.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:27 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: EKron
SRS is not some magic confirmation or badge of gender. One of the things it does do though is take you out of the middle and into the conventional binary male/female paradigm in all aspects at all times and in all environments.


^^^^ THIS

I hope this doesn't make me a "separatist" but I don't have a problem with the military saying one has to have had SRS. To me if one wants to live "in the middle" they don't belong in a military system which until fairly recently in the country's history was set up for only one gender: male.

They have had a difficult enough time adapting to two genders and they are set up for two genders. I would not feel comfortable sharing facilities with a transgender woman who was in-the-middle but less discreet about what was "down there" if you know what I mean?

This is a difficult issue because for socio-economic reasons there are many transgender people who might want STS who can not afford SRS. The military has always offered a way in which people from these socio-economic groups could "pick themselves up" and pay for college or learn a skill or trade. So banning those who might be in the middle and want SRS from the military would really restrict them from bettering themselves and being able to serve.

The only solution I see for this is that if a recruit who was trans but in the middle, wanted SRS the military would pay for the surgery as they do with college but unlike college the payment would be 2 years prior to the recruit joining the service.

Would people be ok with this as a solution?


No. The military is not in the business to provide SRS surgery. Medical care is one of the biggest expenses to DOD and we don't need to add more expense onto it.



Did you see the part where it was not coming out of the medical fund but the GI Bill funds?



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess
I guess everyone is just all sensitive and depressed these days or something. I suppressed myself for years and IN the military no less so I KNOW firsthand what it is like. I'm ok and I'm ok with who I am and what part of the spectrum I'm in.


Maybe your experience may not necessarily be the only valid one or even the norm. Gender Dysphoria by its very nature is well... dysphoric. If you were perfectly ok with being forced to be a male soldier either your gender dysphoria wasn't very intense or you were just able to bare it better.

But that should not be the baseline for how to set policy in my opinion.





Also nobody would be forced to do anything, if you want to join and you know the rules and you are willing to deal with them then in you go. I love smoking pot but I gave that up for 4 years, not once ever did I even get tempted.



Some people for socio-economic reasons have little options available to improve their life's situation other than joining the military.

Did you seriously equate being transexual with smoking pot? I may have to stop reading Princess.




a reply to: JadeStar


Look at like this lets say you have a young 17 yr trans-man that has no real family because they disowned him and the only chance he has at escaping his current turmoil would be the military. He could go in as a female albeit a butch girl suck it up and play the role for 4 years knowing that the current equality policies have improved immensely over the years. After contractual agreement is up he now has the money he needs to pursue his personal journey of self development and by the age of 21 maybe 22. I know many would jump at this opportunity.


Do you know many trans girls who would?


However, the job of the military is not to help people on their journies of self discovery nor is it supposed to be a financial out. Although those things do happen, they are not the reason why the military exists and those who go with that with the sole intention usually do not do well.

If one makes the military into a means to continue with SRS, you will have a lot of people coming who neither really want to be there and will not be able to adjust.

"I only signed up for the college money" is already an oft-heard cry of those who are not adjusting/don't really want to be there/not hacking it.


To this I say stop worrying about why different people join for different reasons its none of your effing business. I joined for college money and to actually get to blow stuff up LEGALLY and I did just fine. I didn't stay because I had other things to do with my civilian freedom. I hate when people try to judge your reason for joining, it is silly as long as the individual can preform their job and not endanger others. Nobody EVER got hit by an IED on MY PATROLS. I have also heard one particularly ignorant individual say that they joined so they could "kill a punjab" as they put it. Now his reason for joining i judge but if you want to better yourself somehow by joining then more power to you.



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