The Ban On Transgender Individuals In The Military May Soon Be Lifted

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

It might be hypocritical, but it does happen within the transgendered community. There are a lot of different comfort levels that I've seen. I once witnessed an argument on whether transmen could use the word "tranny" like some transwomen do. These are internal problems and the community has been working hard to resolve any differences when they crop up. No one's perfect, but it's foolish to think you can use this sort of infighting as an excuse to cut loose on all of your prejudices.

Don't want to shower with a transgendered person? Fine, shower at a different time.

I didn't say I didn't. I don't care who I shower with. I've never had any modesty personally.

However, it is still hypocritical to lambaste a "cis" for being uncomfortable when you demonstrate discomfort. That's a rather basic fact.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

So you're just looking for free license to be a jerk? Um... no. Not going to fly. These are internal issues and the transgendered community has been trying to deal and sort them through for some time. I've seen emotions run high, but one thing they eventually remember is that they're all in it together. That is not allowance for someone like you to just trod freely over them all.

That's nonsense. I did not say that at all.


What I was pointing out that it is rather hypocritical to get upset about other people's sensitivities and prejudices when you have them yourself. You can't be upset if someone says "I don't want to shower with a transgender" when you, yourself say, "I don't want to shower with a transgender."

Were vibing today buddy... oh and I love Seamen btw

a reply to: TrappedPrincess

I think it's a psychological cultural issue. Until the day that society gets over those hangups completely, we'll probably have to continue dealing with them.

originally posted by: NavyDoc
The military is supposed to kill people and break things in defense of the United States and it's interests, not be a social justice playground.

I find it shocking that someone who claims to be a Captain(O-6) in the Medical Corps of the US Navy would write that.

Killing people and breaking things for defense is a last resort, and while it is pertinent that the military is ready to do such a thing at a moment's notice, the US military is a lot more than a killing machine.

Among other things, the US is often the first to provide humanitarian aide internationally, especially after a disaster. It is humanistic for such a great force to allow those to serve whose gender does not fall in the dogmatic 'traditional' roles.

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: JadeStar

One thing I have to agree is that the military have a very high incident of suicides but we never get to know the basis or details for the mental problems leading to that.

Exactly.

And the first thing I thought of rightly or wrongly and despite what anyone here thinks of her and what she did, is the case of wikileaks's Chelsea Manning

I'd suggest that a histrionic scumbag traitor with mental issues is not the poster child you'd want.

Oh i'm not saying she is a poster child. I am saying she is a cautionary tale of what someone who is not comfortable with the gender they present as might do if they were forced to live as that gender in the military.

Then I'm an example of the opposite.

That's a very good point Princess.

I guess the question is which is more likely you or Chelsea?

As a scientist I don't want to guess. I want data.

To blindly experiment could cost someone their life.

Ok so you have myself, you have Kristin Beck, you have the aforementioned Sgt Ortega and I have met others personally and yet I only know of one Chelsea Manning who even if meaning well broke OPSEC and you don't violate OPSEC.

Ok but what of some of the suicides? What if instead of breaking OPSEC they just break themselves? We'd have no way of knowing. Chelsea would be the outlier here. She admitted to considering suicide so there is reason to believe that.

But we have NO EVIDENCE to support that those suicides were related to Trans issues. So therefore no reason to screw perfectly good candidates. Your making my point showing that Chelsea Manning is just a weak person and weak people do not belong in the military and not all Trans people are weakling cowards.

Woah there... Don't you think it is prudent to gather evidence first before making a decision which could adversely affect the lives of those who serve?

I have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY for those that commit suicide NONE WHATSOEVER.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

It might be hypocritical, but it does happen within the transgendered community. There are a lot of different comfort levels that I've seen. I once witnessed an argument on whether transmen could use the word "tranny" like some transwomen do. These are internal problems and the community has been working hard to resolve any differences when they crop up. No one's perfect, but it's foolish to think you can use this sort of infighting as an excuse to cut loose on all of your prejudices.

Don't want to shower with a transgendered person? Fine, shower at a different time.

I agree but in the military you're told when to shower and stuff right?

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

So you're just looking for free license to be a jerk? Um... no. Not going to fly. These are internal issues and the transgendered community has been trying to deal and sort them through for some time. I've seen emotions run high, but one thing they eventually remember is that they're all in it together. That is not allowance for someone like you to just trod freely over them all.

That's nonsense. I did not say that at all.


What I was pointing out that it is rather hypocritical to get upset about other people's sensitivities and prejudices when you have them yourself. You can't be upset if someone says "I don't want to shower with a transgender" when you, yourself say, "I don't want to shower with a transgender."

I think my analogy with the black community still having issues with the lightness or darkness of brown in some places like where my mom comes from, New Orleans, still holds.

Just because some of us of trans history might have issues showering with someone else of trans history (albeit in a different physical state) doesn't mean that cisnormative society should be carte blanche insensitive asses to transgender people.

Me as someone who had surgery at 17 feeling weird about showering with a transgender woman who has not had SRS is not being transphobic. It's just being uncomfortable showering with someone with a penis. I'd be perfectly fine showering with her if she hid it somehow.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you but yeah it's like this. I wouldn't have wanted to show that thing off when I had one and I have serious issues with someone who would call themselves a woman and want access to women's facilities who would not be discrete about having one.

Right. Exactly the same thing that a lot of non-transgender women say. Why should their feelings be invalid but yours valid.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: CriticalStinker

What makes you think they'd be ineffectual soldiers? Do you think that transgenders have problems following orders or something?

When you need a steady supply of hormones to keep your body as is, deployments could be problematic. Chronic medical needs such as hypothyroid and needing thyroid replacement can make one undeployable. They shouldn't be in combat arms for this reason alone.

I was thinking the same thing.


Plus many suffer from mental health disorders too like depression.

Are they medicaly fit to serve?

UK discussing similar changes. I would have no issue so long as they pass heath checks like anyone else.

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: JadeStar

One thing I have to agree is that the military have a very high incident of suicides but we never get to know the basis or details for the mental problems leading to that.

Exactly.

And the first thing I thought of rightly or wrongly and despite what anyone here thinks of her and what she did, is the case of wikileaks's Chelsea Manning

I'd suggest that a histrionic scumbag traitor with mental issues is not the poster child you'd want.

Oh i'm not saying she is a poster child. I am saying she is a cautionary tale of what someone who is not comfortable with the gender they present as might do if they were forced to live as that gender in the military.

Then I'm an example of the opposite.

That's a very good point Princess.

I guess the question is which is more likely you or Chelsea?

As a scientist I don't want to guess. I want data.

To blindly experiment could cost someone their life.

Ok so you have myself, you have Kristin Beck, you have the aforementioned Sgt Ortega and I have met others personally and yet I only know of one Chelsea Manning who even if meaning well broke OPSEC and you don't violate OPSEC.

Ok but what of some of the suicides? What if instead of breaking OPSEC they just break themselves? We'd have no way of knowing. Chelsea would be the outlier here. She admitted to considering suicide so there is reason to believe that.

But we have NO EVIDENCE to support that those suicides were related to Trans issues. So therefore no reason to screw perfectly good candidates. Your making my point showing that Chelsea Manning is just a weak person and weak people do not belong in the military and not all Trans people are weakling cowards.

Woah there... Don't you think it is prudent to gather evidence first before making a decision which could adversely affect the lives of those who serve?

I have ABSOLUTELY NO SYMPATHY for those that commit suicide NONE WHATSOEVER.

May I ask why? I mean you and I share a pain which we went through and yes, you are incredibly strong. I get that. However your strength in one area does not mean that my strength in another is somehow weakness.

In some cultures suicide is considered an honorable and brave thing.

I had a strength of conviction pretty much from the time I was born about who and what I was. I was willing to die rather than live a lie.

Can you say the same?

I don't think you were weak for pretending to be a boy.

a reply to: NavyDoc

The point is, even if its hypocritical doesn't mean you, who are not a part of the demographic can just decide "well they do it to each other, I guess I can to." To sound a little street, you do not have "N-word privileges."

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

So you're just looking for free license to be a jerk? Um... no. Not going to fly. These are internal issues and the transgendered community has been trying to deal and sort them through for some time. I've seen emotions run high, but one thing they eventually remember is that they're all in it together. That is not allowance for someone like you to just trod freely over them all.

That's nonsense. I did not say that at all.


What I was pointing out that it is rather hypocritical to get upset about other people's sensitivities and prejudices when you have them yourself. You can't be upset if someone says "I don't want to shower with a transgender" when you, yourself say, "I don't want to shower with a transgender."

I think my analogy with the black community still having issues with the lightness or darkness of brown in some places like where my mom comes from, New Orleans, still holds.

Just because some of us of trans history might have issues showering with someone else of trans history (albiet in a different physical state) doesn't mean that cisnormative society should be carte blanche insensitive asses to transgender people.

Me as someone who had surgery at 17 feeling weird about showering with a transgender woman who has not had SRS is not being transphobic. It's just being uncomfortable showering with someone with a penis. I'd be perfectly fine showering with her if she hid it somehow.

What is it about penises that frightens people? Hell Marines draw penises on everything and sometimes the occasional boobs but mostly penises of different shapes, sizes and varieties. Even in the entertainment industry it is still kind of taboo to show a full frontal nude of a male but women oh boy we can show them off all the time, right? People really need to get over this whole insecurity about nudity, its a penis not a cobra.

LOL. Every porta-john from Baghdad to Nome where Marines go is festooned with penis drawings like hieroglyphs on an old Egyptian temple. Now I know you're the real deal.

originally posted by: JadeStar

Me as someone who had surgery at 17 feeling weird about showering with a transgender woman who has not had SRS is not being transphobic. It's just being uncomfortable showering with someone with a penis. I'd be perfectly fine showering with her if she hid it somehow.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you but yeah it's like this. I wouldn't have wanted to show that thing off when I had one and I have serious issues with someone who would call themselves a woman and want access to women's facilities who would not be discrete about having one.

HALLELUIAH !!

So TrappedPrincess, are you going to hate Jade and I both now? I agree completely with what she said.

Is this elitist and separatist all that, quite frankly yes, yes it is and the argument that male bodied "women" have equal access to female bodied women's protected spaces because they "identify" pushes me further toward the transsexual separatists movement side of thinking. Remember, we're talking barracks, communal showers, nudity.

a reply to: JadeStar

I've heard stories that you can sneak out of having a shower on occasion. It'll be hard to pull off for consecutive skippings, as the Sergeant will start to notice that you're getting a bit ripe. But I've heard that it can be done.

originally posted by: jrod

originally posted by: NavyDoc
The military is supposed to kill people and break things in defense of the United States and it's interests, not be a social justice playground.

I find it shocking that someone who claims to be a Captain(O-6) in the Medical Corps of the US Navy would write that.

Killing people and breaking things for defense is a last resort, and while it is pertinent that the military is ready to do such a thing at a moment's notice, the US military is a lot more than a killing machine.

Among other things, the US is often the first to provide humanitarian aide internationally, especially after a disaster. It is humanistic for such a great force to allow those to serve whose gender does not fall in the dogmatic 'traditional' roles.

Hyperbole--look it up.


However, the military is and should be about the mission. It should not be about making special snowflakes feel good about themselves. It's not for everyone.

It is not "humanistic" if it interferes with the mission. Chronic medical needs are usually a dis-qualifier for enlistment and quite often a dis-qualifier for continued service. I've said zip about "traditional gender roles" and have only commented on cost and logistics and medical needs.

originally posted by: EKron

originally posted by: JadeStar

Me as someone who had surgery at 17 feeling weird about showering with a transgender woman who has not had SRS is not being transphobic. It's just being uncomfortable showering with someone with a penis. I'd be perfectly fine showering with her if she hid it somehow.

I don't know if that makes any sense to you but yeah it's like this. I wouldn't have wanted to show that thing off when I had one and I have serious issues with someone who would call themselves a woman and want access to women's facilities who would not be discrete about having one.

HALLELUIAH !!

So TrappedPrincess, are you going to hate Jade and I both now? I agree completely with what she said.

Is this elitist and separatist all that, quite frankly yes, yes it is and the argument that male bodied "women" have equal access to female bodied women's protected spaces because they "identify" pushes me further toward the transsexual separatists movement side of thinking. Remember, we're talking barracks, communal showers, nudity.

Thank you. I was worried that my position was extreme but I mean you and I have already lived lives where TrappedPrincess is headed.

She may someday too think as we do if she had SRS and allows herself to fully integrate. I just am concerned with her not understanding why other women might be uncomfortable in that situation.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: NavyDoc

Maybe they won't be in combat arms. The article said they are taking their time figuring this out. So it remains to be seen what they can and cannot do within the military.

I was denied as a straight male entry into the Royal navy college for simply haveing clinical depression.

Now seeing as many trans have a high rate of such disorders I expect there application denial rate to be high, unless they lower standards.

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: TrappedPrincess

originally posted by: JadeStar

originally posted by: NavyDoc

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

So you're just looking for free license to be a jerk? Um... no. Not going to fly. These are internal issues and the transgendered community has been trying to deal and sort them through for some time. I've seen emotions run high, but one thing they eventually remember is that they're all in it together. That is not allowance for someone like you to just trod freely over them all.

That's nonsense. I did not say that at all.


What I was pointing out that it is rather hypocritical to get upset about other people's sensitivities and prejudices when you have them yourself. You can't be upset if someone says "I don't want to shower with a transgender" when you, yourself say, "I don't want to shower with a transgender."

I think my analogy with the black community still having issues with the lightness or darkness of brown in some places like where my mom comes from, New Orleans, still holds.

Just because some of us of trans history might have issues showering with someone else of trans history (albiet in a different physical state) doesn't mean that cisnormative society should be carte blanche insensitive asses to transgender people.

Me as someone who had surgery at 17 feeling weird about showering with a transgender woman who has not had SRS is not being transphobic. It's just being uncomfortable showering with someone with a penis. I'd be perfectly fine showering with her if she hid it somehow.

What is it about penises that frightens people? Hell Marines draw penises on everything and sometimes the occasional boobs but mostly penises of different shapes, sizes and varieties. Even in the entertainment industry it is still kind of taboo to show a full frontal nude of a male but women oh boy we can show them off all the time, right? People really need to get over this whole insecurity about nudity, its a penis not a cobra.

LOL. Every porta-john from Baghdad to Nome where Marines go is festooned with penis drawings like hieroglyphs on an old Egyptian temple. Now I know you're the real deal.

Been surrounded by military all my life and some folks just don't understand what it takes.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JadeStar

I've heard stories that you can sneak out of having a shower on occasion. It'll be hard to pull off for consecutive skippings, as the Sergeant will start to notice that you're getting a bit ripe. But I've heard that it can be done.

Yuck.

a reply to: JadeStar

Do you think any 18 year old who signs up is truly prepared for what they just got themselves into?

This could be used a good recruiting tool as well. There are many highly intelligent trans-folks in the ideal recruiting age that the potential lift of the trans ban would greatly benefit.

If done right, this gives the military great recruits who have an extra motivating reason to serve honorably.

originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: NavyDoc

The point is, even if its hypocritical doesn't mean you, who are not a part of the demographic can just decide "well they do it to each other, I guess I can to." To sound a little street, you do not have "N-word privileges."

Ah, so that's it? You want to be able to be prejudiced against your own without people pointing out the hypocrisy of it?

I don't think I put down my fellow Marine once, even though you want to incorrectly put that on me. However, two transgender people have because he was, and I did not coin nor use the phrase at her, "an inbetweener."

Nonsense. You cannot demand respect from others if you don't grant it to each other.