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Please ATS, nobody is BANNING the flag.

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posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
So it's obviously better just to call people 'racist' and make posters the topic.


Hmmm? Link me to a post in this thread where I called you a racist. Though, I'm not sure what else I can talk about. Neither you nor Beezer seem willing to answer a simple question that has been posed to you for several pages now.


Yeah I have never seen the confederate flag haters evolve their 'debate' tactics for the past 8 years.


Well when you have history on your side, you don't really need to change your argument much.
Confederate battle flag: Separating the myths from facts


It's not the original Confederate flag

The Confederate states went through three official flags during the four-year Civil War, but none of them was the battle flag that's at the center of the current controversy.

It's not even the second, or the third

The original Confederate flag's similarity to the Union flag quickly confused soldiers, who often couldn't tell the difference between the two on smoke-filled battlefields.

Confederate Gen. P.G.T. Beauregard wanted something that looked distinctly different.

So politician William Porcher Miles came up with the design we know today -- the battle flag: a blue St. Andrew's Cross with white stars on a red field.

The Confederacy took the battle flag design and put it on the canton of its next flag, a white one. They called it the "Stainless Banner."

It's the battle flag of Robert E. Lee's army unit

While it wasn't the Confederate states' official flag, the battle flag was flown by several Confederate Army units. The most notable among them was Gen. Robert E. Lee's Army of Northern Virginia.

And even Lee distanced himself from divisive symbols of a Civil War that his side lost.

"I think it wiser moreover not to keep open the sores of war," he wrote in a letter, declining an invitation by the Gettysburg Battlefield Memorial Association.

There were no flags flown at his funeral, Confederate or otherwise.

Slavery was a big part of why the South wanted to secede

In their declarations of secession from the Union, some Southern states expressly mentioned slavery as a reason for their departure.

The rebel flag's resurgence came long after the Civil War

After the Civil War ended, the battle flag turned up here and there only occasionally -- at events to commemorate fallen soldiers.

So, when did the flag explode into prominence? It was during the struggle for civil rights for black Americans, in the middle of the 20th century.

The first burst may have been in 1948. South Carolina politician Strom Thurmond ran for president under the newly founded States Rights Democratic Party, also known as the Dixiecrats. The party's purpose was clear: "We stand for the segregation of the races," said Article 4 of its platform.



You mean the resurrected by the democrats.


Yea, so? Again, I'm not a democrat, nor do I care to defend Democrats' actions. Especially when those actions happened in the past. That's like hold white people today responsible for slavery in the 1800's.



That was answered but someone ignored it.

Here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


That isn't a politician supporting a ban. That is just another movement to remove the flag from public grounds.


Then again here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


More removals of the Confederate flag from state grounds, but no actual bans. Your rhetoric is still pretty shallow. Though at least you ATTEMPTED to answer the question. I'll give you credit there at least.




posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Khaleesi

originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: beezzer



I wonder if there would be a fine associated with flying the confederate flag in SC public property now.


Not sure what you mean by this... it's hard to tell with all the disjointed statements. Do you mean fined for private display in public? Like if you carried flag or displayed it on your person?

If so, no there shouldn't be a fine. That's violating free speech.


I'm not sure but I think the bunny may be referring to the removal of Confederate flags from cemetery graves of Confederate soldiers. IIRC I recently saw a story about that happening. I'll try to find a link. I think I understand your position. No Confederate flags on government buildings and I can agree with that. But what is your opinion on flags being removed from graves and memorials?


Those are federal cemeteries so the government has every right to remove them.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: beezzer

Please bring a dictionary with you while posting. Removing it from public grounds is not banning. Banning is making it illegal for display all together. Stop making yourself bleed and blaming it on others!


Can you still fly the confederate flag in the part of public land where they took it down?

Or is it "prohibited" now?



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:27 PM
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a reply to: Khaleesi

Privatize them. Let the people who care about honoring the Confederacy take over responsibility for their maintenance. Then no one gets to have a say about what flags are flown at them or anything else about them. Sons of the Confederacy and Daughters of the Confederacy are both pretty big right? Let the government give it all to them.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:28 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Those are federal cemeteries so the government has every right to remove them.


What if it is part of the headstone itself?



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:28 PM
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originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: beezzer
a reply to: Kali74

Look, you folks are the ones for banning stuff on public property, I just wanted to make sure I never did anything wrong.


It's difficult to have an honest conversation when you're being intentionally obtuse and approaching this in an immature fashion.

No one has said they want to ban the flag. That would mean that it would be illegal to display it not only on government property, but also on private property.

Letting the people decide what symbols they want presented on government buildings or property is not a ban, it's the freedom to affect and change government to represent them in the best way they see fit.

Why are you against freedom if people use that freedom to do something you don't like?


If you want to change the definition of a word, well, it wouldn't be the first time. . .



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
Those are federal cemeteries so the government has every right to remove them.


What if it is part of the headstone itself?


I'm pretty sure that would be an exception since it is a decorated privately for the soldier buried there. Though, you could always look up the statutes regulating what the government can do on the matter. I'm not entirely sure myself.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Khaleesi

Privatize them. Let the people who care about honoring the Confederacy take over responsibility for their maintenance. Then no one gets to have a say about what flags are flown at them or anything else about them. Sons of the Confederacy and Daughters of the Confederacy are both pretty big right? Let the government give it all to them.


Thank you.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:32 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

Didn't we go over this already? Here's what I said before:



Do you mean fined for private display in public? Like if you carried flag or displayed it on your person? If so, no there shouldn't be a fine. That's violating free speech.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:33 PM
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a reply to: beezzer



If you want to change the definition of a word, well, it wouldn't be the first time. . .


If you want to deny people their right to freedom of speech, well, it wouldn't be the first time...



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:34 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t




Hmmm? Link me to a post in this thread where I called you a racist. T


That is what the topic is about eh.

Confederate flag= racist.



Rep. Hakeem Jeffries, D-N.Y. demanded as racial political tensions flared — ironically enough, on the day the same banner was losing its place of honor on the grounds outside the South Carolina Capitol.


Yo that's a politician.



For her part, House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi offered legislation to remove all state flags containing any portion of the Confederate battle flag from the House side of the Capitol, and said she would try again on Friday.
_javascript:quote()

There's another politician




Governor Jerry Brown signed legislation last year prohibiting state agencies from selling or displaying items bearing the flag. (August 21, 2014)


Brown is another.

Your question has been answered multiple times just someone is ignoring it.
edit on 13-7-2015 by neo96 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:35 PM
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originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: beezzer



If you want to change the definition of a word, well, it wouldn't be the first time. . .


If you want to deny people their right to freedom of speech, well, it wouldn't be the first time...


Yet I'm not the one supporting a ban on the flag, and you are!

Funny how that works, doesn't it!



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

While we all know the flag isn't banned, and it's presence on Government buildings has been voted on, and the flag removed, it's obvious that those who wished all that take place aren't going to stop there. As the other articles mentioned, now, legislature is trying to come in removing the flag from cemeteries and monuments. Which brings me to this thread I did not long ago.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I fully understand the flag issue and can even sympathize to a point that it can have a racist connotation. About as much as the US flag might have to a Native American or a British Citizen. And I see how it's much easier to remove it from government buildings then to continue to display it, knowing it offends some.

But, as I asked in that thread, where does this end? And please, I am not asking this to stir up old arguments, or to proliferate hyperbole. I want you to think about what has happened so far, and why. We removed a symbol from a building because it was offensive to some. Now, if we look a bit deeper, there are multitudes of symbols that fall into the exact same category. A General Lee Statue, a Zebulon Vance memorial. (forget all about the recent vandalism of these where "black lives matter" was painted on them both.) This is about legislature to remove a symbol.

As I also said, I agree with the process as long as it's the will of the people. Even if I don't like the outcome. But if I sit back and say nothing, who will speak up against those who wish to remove more of these "offensive" monuments? Part of that process we all like so well is to speak up and try to change the minds of those with piss poor differing ideas.

So while I don't expect many will have their minds changed with a few ATS threads, at least there will be public record of these discussions, so later, when a crew is dismantling a civil war statue, we can sigh and say, 'I saw this coming'.
edit on 13-7-2015 by network dude because: space



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: neo96
That is what the topic is about eh.

Confederate flag= rascist.


I don't know what thread YOU think you are posting in, but the one I'm posting in is a thread saying that no one is banning the flag, not whether the flag is racist or not. But that is irrelevant, just because you may support the flag for whatever reason, doesn't mean I'm calling you racist by calling the flag racist.


Yo that's a politician.


You planning on sourcing that quote or anything so we know exactly what he said?


For her part, House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi offered legislation to remove all state flags containing any portion of the Confederate battle flag from the House side of the Capitol, and said she would try again on Friday.
_javascript:quote()

There's another politician

THAT'S NOT A BAN! That is just removing the flag from state grounds. AGAIN. learn the difference! I want a politician that SPECIFICALLY wants to ban the flag altogether which is what you two have been saying since the beginning. Not a bunch of platitudes from politicians trying to cater to their bases to have flags removed from state operated locations.



Brown is another.


STATE grounds...


Your question has been answered multiple times just someone is ignoring it.


No, it hasn't. You seem to think that removing the flag from public property is the same as banning it and keep displaying evidence of that happening, but that is a red herring because that isn't a ban. It is just politicians catering to the will of the people to have the Confederate Flag removed from public displays in public buildings. I want an example of a politicians that wants to ACTUALLY ban the flag. You know, so NO ONE can ever see it again. That is the slippery slope you've been pushing. So back it the eff up already!



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:41 PM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
I'm pretty sure that would be an exception since it is a decorated privately for the soldier buried there. Though, you could always look up the statutes regulating what the government can do on the matter. I'm not entirely sure myself.


Just found this on the Department of Veterans Affairs website:


The inscription on the special style for Civil War Confederate is also limited. The Southern Cross of Honor is automatically inscribed at the top. The name is arched, followed by abbreviated military organization and dates of birth and death. No additional items can be inscribed. If a flat marker is desired for a Confederate soldier, the Southern Cross of Honor can be inscribed if requested, or any of the other approved emblems may be inscribed if requested.


It also appears that a marker placed in a national cemetery is from a predetermined style and not overly customizable.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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originally posted by: Kali74
a reply to: Khaleesi

Privatize them. Let the people who care about honoring the Confederacy take over responsibility for their maintenance. Then no one gets to have a say about what flags are flown at them or anything else about them. Sons of the Confederacy and Daughters of the Confederacy are both pretty big right? Let the government give it all to them.


What a fantastic idea. Have the government give all the land and monuments to a public group to maintain these. Then we can display any damn thing we like and the rest of the whiners can suck eggs. I like this.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t

So removing a flag and never allowing it to be flown again is not a ban?



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:42 PM
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a reply to: beezzer

We're just going in circles now. I've said no such thing, but I've come to learn that reading comprehension is hard for some. So I can understand why you are still clinging to that line when all others have failed.

I've even said that I don't care if the flag stays up. It's up to the people in that area to decide. But please, continue to make stuff up. It doesn't effect me.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:43 PM
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a reply to: network dude

My intentions have been clear since the very beginning (despite Beezer trying to put words in my mouth). I am all for the removal of ANY symbol from government buildings and property. They are public buildings so the public gets to determine what should be there or not be there. I am NOT for banning these symbols outright. I have no problems with them showing up in a museum or history books or anything like that. I'm NOT trying to hide history or ban something that is important to people.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 03:44 PM
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a reply to: Krazysh0t




I don't know what thread YOU think you are posting in, but the one I'm posting in is a thread saying that no one is banning the flag,


Then someone still hasn't bothered reading the material supplied.

House scraps vote on Confederate flag in federal cemeteries

People ARE trying to ban the flag.

They almost succeeded.




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