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Why does the EU hate Croatia and other slavic nations

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posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 05:59 AM
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Chris,

I don’t mean to offend your pride, but in the concrete case of Spain, the majority of the subsides came from Germany and France. Sorry.


Anyway,

It seems that you didn’t understand my point, or maybe you didn’t want to understand. Lets try again:

“Spain's contributin to the EU (£millions): 3,694
Spain's payments FROM the EU (£millioms): 8,554”

As I told you, this is a half truth. The industrial re-conversion in Spain was far more expensive for us than 5,000 millions of pounds. The benefice of the UK industry by making Spain looking her way without interfering with the Brit industrial interests, and by winning a market of 43 millions of persons is far higher than 5,000 millions of pounds. As I told in other section, nobody sells 1 euro for 90 cents. And Spain is not stupid enough to accomplish with the previous hard requirements (imposed by the UK among others, despite the UK has not contributed to the Spanish subsides) if we don’t get some benefice. The benefice is for Spain also, in my opinion far higher than 5,000 millions of pounds.

The way in which you provide and discuss this amounts seems ridiculous to me.

“That's possibly the stupidest thing i've ever heard on P@ATS.”

What I meant, is that Spain needed the subsides due to our backward respect to the leading European countries that we suffered during the last century. If we were the leader of Europe, we will not receive the subsides. Evident, don’t you think so?

“The most important country in europe?” As I told you, from the strategic (geographical) point of view, Spain is clearly the most important country in Europe. Also is the largest country in Europe after France. These are facts, these are not subjective matters.

“Huge influence in Latin America?” The second most influent country in Latin America after the USA. Does it sound you weird? You have rode too much Brit popular literature, I guess.


“Wow, that's gotta be worth £5 billion.” Hey man, don’t be stinky, you seems a gypsy giving prices.


“The price I give is $4.86 billion” Well, your price seems ridiculous to me so there is not agreement. Go away of the EU.

“Blah, blah,” This is the most ridiculous argument against my point that I have ever seen.


“and your reasons are based in the fact we give you £4.86 billion a year.” This would be your reasons if the UK was the country receiving the subsides of the EU. But I am not like you.

Cree el ladrón que todos son de su condición.

I sincerely support the expansion of the EU towards the east, which basically means Spain not receiving subsides from the EU anymore, as I sincerely support a referendum in the UK in order to decide your membership.

“I don't believe that's your” Well, so this conversation makes no sense anymore. If you put in my mind what you want to put, you will be right.

I don’t believe that you are heterosexual, so don’t try to convince me!


“I do not support separation of the UK from the EU, I just think we need some serious reform.”

The majority of the Europeans, myself included, don’t think that the EU needs a serious reform in order to make higher the benefices for the UK. What I think is that there is necessary a referendum for membership in the UK, since in the last times the implication of the UK in the European issues is weak, if not damaging for the EU (see Iraq).

“all the nation states of the EU, can build something that is democratic, just and representative, then I say we do it.”

What you want is a system in which you will enjoy all the benefices and no sacrifices. As my country beneficed by the principle of solidarity between members, I want to keep this principle now with the new members, and I don’t care whether Spain have to pay more. I don’t feel myself able to build a new European Union made for the UK convenience. Sorry, but the whole idea seems hilarious to me. You are free to go out.

“If we are to build a united europe then let us build it on principles and justice” Once I have discussed with you and you have explained your reasons, I can tell you that your principles of justice have nothing to do with the mines. You are free to go out.

“Transparency and democracy will be our watchwords.” You can keep in UK. Let me work for the EU in which I trust, let me improve the things.

Look, I think that the Brit anti-europeists are twisting the bird. But the matter is much easier. Nobody obligates the UK to be member of the EU. Despite there are pro-europeists in the UK as sminkeypinkey, when I read about the issue or I discuss the issue, I have the impression that the anti-europeists are majority in the UK.

If I thought as you do, the membership of my country in the EU would be outraging for me. I really understand how you feel. Therefore, I think it is necessary a referendum of membership for the UK, because Europe works in a democratic way.

In my opinion, you reasons are primary based in a rampant egoism. And you have the right to be egoist, since you are throwing to the beggars 5,000 millions of pounds.

But what I can not admit, is an EU made to your own convenience. It is not only that it would be unjust (from my point of view), it is also that, as Spain, the UK is not the USA. What does it mean? It means that the UK has not the power to make an EU for its own service. Wake up man, the USA is in charge of the World now, not the UK.

Look the geographical map of Europe. You will see not only the geographical, but also the political and the authentic configuration of the EU. We have in the core of the continent the main four continental economies (France, Germany, Italy and Spain), and the other little and rich countries making a compact stone…and suddenly you have there an island, near but separated of Europe. Your island.



Wake up man! Since the borders were opened in the continental Europe and the continental Europe put the euro on the table, the EU has been working without the UK. You should face it.

The UK didn’t open the borders. Don’t you trust in the Frenchies? They can be a little bit chauvinists, but they are nice people, they are not going to rape the Brit women.


The matter of the Euro was funniest. Many Brits (and non-Brits) thought “bah, we don’t want the Euro, and the Euro without the UK has not future”. Well, here we are, and the Americans are pissing their pants because the Euro is having de dollar for dinner. Where is the UK?? Missed in combat (I am not being sarcastic!).



The European train is gaining speed and the UK stills in the platform. And I will wave a white handkerchief for you!!


Do you know why nobody tries to make a referendum of membership in the UK? Because the politics, the economists, the people who really understand which is the reality, FEAR that the NO could win.

It really hurts me for the people who think as sminkeypinkey do.




posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 06:26 AM
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Originally posted by Chris McGee
No, sminkey, I was going by figures of 65% of the British population thinking the EU doesn't work in it's present format. Pelayo suggested a new format and I assented.

Poll Data

ICM's polling data.

Talk about delusions of intelligence.


- No, these polls are notoriously unreliable on the matter.
Firstly many Britons simply don't care, the EU ranks very low on the proiority list, secondly many polls also show that whilst Britons have a series of concerns and worries about the EU they are also well aware that they have not heard both sides of the matter, only the 'anti' case and additional loud ravings from the anti - side is never going to redress that...... and thirdly on every occassion when it has come to it the UK has never backed the 'renegotiate' or 'come out' side in any important election here where their vote might bring it about.

The 2001 general election was the anti-EU mob's big chance and the people turned their backs in such a way even tories should have been able to get the message, sadly they didn't and Howard now chasing the even more extreme UKIP vote is set to bring further disaster for them in the coming spring/summer.

(do you want or really need links to the latest polls showing a projected Labour win with a majority of 120+? .....and that doesn't take account of the traditional increase in support for the governing party)

(One can only wonder at what point are the tories prepared to listen to the truth that the reason why they have been being beaten by repeated record land-slides in the only UK election of importance (ie the general elections in the UK) is not because they weren't right-wing or anti-EU enough?
Ken Clark tried a while back but things are so detached from reality that even a right-winger like him (check out his tenure as Home Secretary at the Home Office and Sec of State at the NHS) is now considered a lefty-liberal in that loony ding-bat party these days!
)



If it comes to a straight 'in' or 'out' referendum vote your 'out' side loses


Why don't you read the last couple of paragraphs of my reply you reactionist [cough].



- Well I'll say this.
I've yet to meet the 'EU reformist' who wasn't really about destroying the EU or 'reforming' it to a point where all the benefits are lost in the scramble for individual national benefit (ie what they perceive as their own).

What were you trying to tell our Croatian friend about how they didn't want to be joining the EU!?


So where are you comments about the positive side to the EU Chris?

Of course you - like most of us - can have a tendancy to 'cherry pick' the (negative) data and then present it as the only valid information out there (what was I saying a while back about how useless some of these links are, hmmmm?)

How does this one sit with you?


Almost half of British voters favour a European constitution, an EU poll found yesterday, in glaring contradiction of the bulk of opinion poll evidence over the past two years.
The latest half-yearly Eurobarometer poll for the European commission, including a survey of 1,310 UK adults, found that 49% of Britons favour an EU constitution, with 29% against and 22% undecided.


www.guardian.co.uk...

See, there is an alternative view out there.

- As for reading your reply? Well if you check the times that wasn't up when I wrote and posted mine. It happens.

[edit on 28-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 06:40 AM
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By the way Chris

The budget data that you provided are from almost one decade ago. I see your information, as your mind keeps stuck in the past.




posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 06:49 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
The 2001 general election was the anti-EU mob's big chance and the people turned their backs


Are you still using this
they did not lose because of this single issue


Almost half of British voters favour a European constitution, an EU poll found yesterday, in glaring contradiction of the bulk of opinion poll evidence over the past two years.
The latest half-yearly Eurobarometer poll for the European commission, including a survey of 1,310 UK adults, found that 49% of Britons favour an EU constitution, with 29% against and 22% undecided.


Its a bloody EU poll of course its going to favour itself



posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 08:21 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
Are you still using this
they did not lose because of this single issue


- Except that they made it their big single issue Wizard (and came to regret it by the last 2 weeks of the campaign when they tried to change course).

If anti-EU sentiment was the big deal the anti-EU side claim it is in the UK then how come the tory party were utterly thrashed in 2001.....and will be again in a few months?

How come an ever more anti-EU position is electoral poison for them?



Its a bloody EU poll of course its going to favour itself



- Would this be a similar "favouring itself" like the tory press and their various polls in the UK or people like UKIP and their polls, hmmmm?

Ha ha ha indeed.

[edit on 28-12-2004 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
and will be again in a few months?


are you a prophet all of a sudden



Would this be a similar "favouring itself" like the tory press and their various polls in the UK or people like UKIP and their polls, hmmmm?



Of course, i personally ignore them - its always best to wait for the election or referedum result.


[edit on 28-12-2004 by UK Wizard]



posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 10:18 AM
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Originally posted by UK Wizard
are you a prophet all of a sudden


- Just remember to marvel at my 'powers' come spring/summer.



Of course, i personally ignore them - its always best to wait for the election or referedum result.


- Everybody loves a poll they can quote to and fro.......so long as it backs their 'case'.



posted on Dec, 28 2004 @ 08:15 PM
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@ Pelayo:

www.indymedia.org.uk...

www.timesonline.co.uk...

A good article on EU corruption.

Are you seriously saying the EU does not need any reform? You've got to be kidding me. You believe an organisation which has not been able to have it's accounts signed off for eight consecutive years does not need reform?

Of course not, you have £4.86 billion reasons not to want reform.


Did you know that the European Union, which now runs the economies of 15 countries (soon to expand to 25), has been unable even to have its own accounts signed off EIGHT YEARS IN SUCCESSION?
Silent Majority reports: The EU wasted nearly £3bn through fraud, bungling and lax controls in 1996. The EU Court of Auditors found that 5.4 % of the £55bn budget had been paid in error. (Daily Telegraph 18/11/97). The EU Parliamentary Committee on Budgetary Control has accused the EU of giving misleading information and stalling inquiries into fraud among its officials involving millions of pounds, dating back to 1989.


www.campaignfortruth.com...


I don’t mean to offend your pride, but in the concrete case of Spain, the majority of the subsides came from Germany and France. Sorry.


So the member states don't pay into a central EU fund which distributes subsidies then? Get your facts straight.


What I meant, is that Spain needed the subsides due to our backward respect to the leading European countries that we suffered during the last century. If we were the leader of Europe, we will not receive the subsides. Evident, don’t you think so?


Yeah, your country is retarded (industrially
) so we've got to give you money.


Cree el ladrón que todos son de su condición


Yeah, it's all our fault.


The majority of the Europeans, myself included, don’t think that the EU needs a serious reform in order to make higher the benefices for the UK.


How about reform to make it an open, transparent, democratic system? No, didn't think so.


Once I have discussed with you and you have explained your reasons, I can tell you that your principles of justice have nothing to do with the mines. You are free to go out.


You have no principles. You are happy to accept an undemocratic, corrupt regime a la Franco without complaint. I, however, prefer to protest things that I feel are not right such as endemic corruption.


You can keep in UK. Let me work for the EU in which I trust, let me improve the things.


You don't want to improve things. You've already stated you're against reform and hence are happy with the corrupt status quo.


Look, I think that the Brit anti-europeists are twisting the bird. But the matter is much easier. Nobody obligates the UK to be member of the EU.


The EU has the potential to be something very special, but in it's current form it just won't work. We need reform, we need more transparency and accountability, we need less corruption, we need to have the damn accounts signed off each and every year.


In my opinion, you reasons are primary based in a rampant egoism. And you have the right to be egoist, since you are throwing to the beggars 5,000 millions of pounds


Subsidies, fine. Subsidies to modern countries like Spain, no. If you can't manage your own affairs, don't expect handouts from others. Countries from the eastern bloc probably need subsidies, but French and Spanish farmers? You like to say you are a modernised western european country, start acting like it.


The matter of the Euro was funniest. Many Brits (and non-Brits) thought “bah, we don’t want the Euro, and the Euro without the UK has not future”. Well, here we are, and the Americans are pissing their pants because the Euro is having de dollar for dinner. Where is the UK?? Missed in combat (I am not being sarcastic!).


We'll probably join when the economic conditions are right, but not before. No-one thinks the euro has no future without the UK but why rush a decision that will have wide ranging implications for the well-being of the country. Better to take your time and make sure it's done in the right way at the right time.


Look the geographical map of Europe. You will see not only the geographical, but also the political and the authentic configuration of the EU. We have in the core of the continent the main four continental economies (France, Germany, Italy and Spain), and the other little and rich countries making a compact stone…and suddenly you have there an island, near but separated of Europe. Your island.




That's hilarious.



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by Chris McGee
You believe an organisation which has not been able to have it's accounts signed off for eight consecutive years does not need reform?


- Yeah but there is/was far more to it than that Chris.

You have neglected to say that the auditors have actually never found anything but a low level of fraud and wastage within the EU accounts.

Come on, think about it.
Which of the national gov's would stand for anything else, eh?

The fact is that the overwhelming majority of their criticisms - and the reason for their refusal to 'sign off' the accounts - related to some of the accountancy methods being used and the on-going lack of will to change them; not vast amounts of corruption and wastage .



posted on Dec, 29 2004 @ 08:53 AM
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“Are you seriously saying the EU does not need any reform?”

Not a reform promoted for the convenience of the UK. The EU doesn’t need such a reform.

“Of course not, you have £4.86 billion reasons not to want reform.”

Much more than this. Look at the picture: While you wake up early every day to work hard and to get money I keep sleeping. While you loose your ass working during the afternoon I sleep the siesta. And at the end of the day, you pay me 5 billions of pounds. Where is the problem?


“So the member states don't pay into a central EU fund which distributes subsidies then?”

Spain has not received subsides from the UK. As I told you, the majority of the subsides received by Spain came from German (the majority) and French budget.

“Yeah, your country is retarded (industrially ) so we've got to give you money.”

Sure, but on the other hand, despite our country was wasted by our civil war, despite our country didn’t received any international aid (as yours did from the Americans) for our reconstruction, despite our country suffered a fascist dictatorship during 40 years (unlike yours), despite the Spaniards were isolated from the international community (unlike the Brits), and despite our Democratic experience don’t reach 30 years old, our quality of life is far higher than the Brit one. This should be a shame for you. Don’t you think so?


www.economist.com...


“How about reform to make it an open, transparent, democratic system?”

I think you should start with the Brit government first. After you success in your own country, you could try with the European one.

“You have no principles”

This is not true. I have principles. You have principles too. The problem is that our principles are incompatible.

“I, however, prefer to protest things that I feel are not right such as endemic corruption.”

You should start with the Brit Royal Family.


“You've already stated you're against reform and hence are happy with the corrupt status quo.”

I am against the reform that you want. I am not against reform as an overall idea. As you constantly stressed, the most obsessive thing in the EU for you is the principle of solidarity, which is one of the main columns of the EU construction that I want. Well, for me, as my country got beneficed from this principle, the EU must keep it with the new members. I would be an hypocrite if I stand against the solidarity principle once my country got beneficed and must pay instead of receive. Is it so difficult to understand for you?

“but in it's current form it just won't work”

the Euro in it’s current form just wont work
the open borders in it’s current form just wont work
wake up man!



“We need reform, we need more transparency and accountability, we need less corruption, we need to have the damn accounts signed off each and every year.”

So, what we need is improvement, and not a deep reform.

Apart from this, which would be the “deep reform” that you want? Because I don’t know exactly what are you talking about.

“Subsidies to modern countries like Spain, no”

Look, you are obsessed with the subsides. The quantity that nowdays Spain, or Portugal, or Greece or Ireland are receiving from the European Union is absolutely ridiculous as compared with the money that is flowing all across the EU thanks to the existence of the EU itself. Your obsession with the subsides seems to me a sad, non-elegant and demagogic reason to stand against the current EU.

“You like to say you are a modernised western european country”

I don’t like to say such a stupid thing. Because living in a modernisedwesterneuropean country is a matter of life circumstances, and does not depend on how smart you are.

“will have wide ranging implications for the well-being of the country”

Yeah, you should take care a little bit more about your quality of life, I agree with you.

“We'll probably join when the economic conditions are right, but not before.”

This is what I most like about the Brit anti-europeists. So you want for the continental Europe the hard work and once the things are clear, fine and without risk you will join. Sure. You will join under OUR conditions. This is pretty funny. And you complain that the UK is below Germany and France in the EU’s hierarchy? Don’t worry. Keeping its current behavior the UK will be also below Italy and Spain soon.

“No-one thinks the euro has no future without the UK”

Of course not. They don’t think such a thing now. But they did when the hard work was not accomplished yet.

“Better to take your time and make sure it's done in the right way at the right time.”

Sure, but if you think about this, the conditions of the negotiation will be radically different. Is not the same thing the EU saying that UK is necessary in the euro machine that the UK saying that now they want be in the euro machine. Are two well different ways to start the negotiation.

You know what, the behavior that you wish in your country regards to me that the SUCCESS is the son of a bitch (the success has 1000 fathers) while the FAILURE is an orphan.

“That's hilarious”

Yeah, that’s hilarious for a German, a French, a Dutch a Portuguese, a Spaniard…But if I was Brit, this would not be hilarious at all for me.




posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Pelayo
Not a reform promoted for the convenience of the UK. The EU doesn’t need such a reform.


So do you think the EU needs reform or not? It's quite a simple question.


Much more than this. Look at the picture: While you wake up early every day to work hard and to get money I keep sleeping. While you loose your ass working during the afternoon I sleep the siesta. And at the end of the day, you pay me 5 billions of pounds. Where is the problem?


Now that is actually funny



Spain has not received subsides from the UK. As I told you, the majority of the subsides received by Spain came from German (the majority) and French budget.


EU subsidies do not come from specific countries. They come from the central EU budget which member states contribute to.


Sure, but on the other hand, despite our country was wasted by our civil war, despite our country didn’t received any international aid (as yours did from the Americans) for our reconstruction, despite our country suffered a fascist dictatorship during 40 years (unlike yours), despite the Spaniards were isolated from the international community (unlike the Brits), and despite our Democratic experience don’t reach 30 years old, our quality of life is far higher than the Brit one. This should be a shame for you. Don’t you think so?


Civil war, i.e. an internal struggle. WWII (which I assume you are referring to), a war of aggression which entailed Germany occupying a large portion of europe. You fought amongst yourselves, we fought to defend the world from the evil of the axis nations. There is no comparison here. We defended europe for 3 years without any help while you had a quick diplomatic siesta. Where were you then, Mr Pro-Europe?

You cannot hold any other country to account for the failings of your state. If you descended into a fascist dictatorship, that's your problem.

We received no aid from the US, we got loans which I believe we are still paying back. An example of a country that stands on it's own two feet, eh?

As for the quality of life, you have that quality of life thanks to the other nations you leech from.


I think you should start with the Brit government first. After you success in your own country, you could try with the European one.


Yeah, because our 1000 year old democracy could learn so much from guys like Franco and Hitler.


This is not true. I have principles. You have principles too. The problem is that our principles are incompatible.


Well, I want a europe that works for the member states equally. I want an open and democratic europe. I want a europe where the people really have a say. What do you want?


You should start with the Brit Royal Family.


LOL, show me one example of corruption in the modern royal family. Man, you had such a huge target and you missed an open goal. Try here, then come back and hit me with british corruption:

www.labour-watch.com...


I am against the reform that you want. I am not against reform as an overall idea. As you constantly stressed, the most obsessive thing in the EU for you is the principle of solidarity, which is one of the main columns of the EU construction that I want. Well, for me, as my country got beneficed from this principle, the EU must keep it with the new members. I would be an hypocrite if I stand against the solidarity principle once my country got beneficed and must pay instead of receive. Is it so difficult to understand for you?


No, it seems we agree on something. I think the new nations joining the EU should get all the benefits of membership and receive funds to bring their living standards and economies into line with the rest of the EU. I don't see why a rich country like france or 'one of the four main economies of the EU' like spain should receive subsidies.


the Euro in it’s current form just wont work
the open borders in it’s current form just wont work
wake up man!


I'm awake. Tell me, in what way is the immigration treaty working. Why aren't illegal immigrants caught in Dover being sent back to France?. Why are British citizens being denied their right to bring in as many cigarettes as they like from EU countries. Why have France, Germany and Italy been allowed to ignore the Growth and Stability Pact while smaller nations are punished under it's rules?

I'm awake, let me know when spain wakes up from it's siesta.




So, what we need is improvement, and not a deep reform.

Apart from this, which would be the “deep reform” that you want? Because I don’t know exactly what are you talking about.


Reform is improvement.


Look, you are obsessed with the subsides. The quantity that nowdays Spain, or Portugal, or Greece or Ireland are receiving from the European Union is absolutely ridiculous as compared with the money that is flowing all across the EU thanks to the existence of the EU itself. Your obsession with the subsides seems to me a sad, non-elegant and demagogic reason to stand against the current EU.


Why should the countries you mentioned receive subsidies? They are modern economies. Spain is 'one of the four main economies of the EU' so why does she need subsidies? Do you remember the butter and wine mountains?


I don’t like to say such a stupid thing. Because living in a modernisedwesterneuropean country is a matter of life circumstances, and does not depend on how smart you are.


obviously.


Yeah, you should take care a little bit more about your quality of life, I agree with you.


Makes a change



This is what I most like about the Brit anti-europeists. So you want for the continental Europe the hard work and once the things are clear, fine and without risk you will join. Sure. You will join under OUR conditions. This is pretty funny. And you complain that the UK is below Germany and France in the EU’s hierarchy? Don’t worry. Keeping its current behavior the UK will be also below Italy and Spain soon.


No, we do not want to join at a point in the cycle which will result in a loss of productivity, jobs and revenue. We do not want to join at a time when it will push the euro to levels which will make exports uncompetitive. We want to join when the time is right for both sides, i.e. a time when the economic conditions are right for a smooth transition which will not harm any of the EU economies rather than taking a rash decision and eeing our economy go down the pan like most of the large european nation's have.


Of course not. They don’t think such a thing now. But they did when the hard work was not accomplished yet.


No, they did not.


Sure, but if you think about this, the conditions of the negotiation will be radically different. Is not the same thing the EU saying that UK is necessary in the euro machine that the UK saying that now they want be in the euro machine. Are two well different ways to start the negotiation.


When we begin entry into the euro it will be of benefit to both parties. Why rush in and hurt the value of the euro as well as the economies of the major european nations?


You know what, the behavior that you wish in your country regards to me that the SUCCESS is the son of a bitch (the success has 1000 fathers) while the FAILURE is an orphan.


Yeah, there's only one T in carrot.


Yeah, that’s hilarious for a German, a French, a Dutch a Portuguese, a Spaniard…But if I was Brit, this would not be hilarious at all for me.


That's cos you don't have a sense of humour.





posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 11:09 AM
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Originally posted by Chris McGee
Yeah, because our 1000 year old democracy could learn so much from guys like Franco and Hitler.


- Now I'll step aside and you guys can carry on this debate with little of my interference but this bit just has to be challenged.

What 1000yrs old British democracy?

Women didn't even get the vote until 1918 and even that was over 30's only so I don't think you can claim a universal democracy of any real substance in the UK that has been existant for even just 100yrs yet Chris.


In 1800, the right to vote was based on wealth and gender (male). Less that 3 adults out of every 100 could vote.
Since the, there have been some significant changes to the voting regulations:

1832 Reform Act. Extended the right to vote to certain leaseholders and householders.
5 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1867 Second Reform Act. Further extension of the voting regulations in counties and boroughs.
13 adults out of every 100 could vote, but still based on wealth.

1872 Secret Ballot Act. Introduced voting by secret ballot.

1884 Representation of the People Act. Any male occupying land or property with an annual rateable value of £10 could vote.
24 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1918 Representation of the People Act. All males over the age of 21 were given the vote. Women over 30 got the vote. Women could sit in the House of Commons as MPs.
75 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1928 Representation of the People Act. Uniform voting rights were extended to all men and women over the age of 21.
99 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1969 Representation of the People Act. The voting age was reduced to all men and women over the age of 18.

1985 Representation of the People Act. Voters who, at the time of an election, are abroad, either working or on holiday, may apply for a postal vote.

2000 Representation of the People Act. Introduced changes to electoral registration and extended postal vote provisions.


www.britainusa.com...

The often touted "1000yr British democracy" is much of a ludicrous and laughable piece of right-wing propaganda for the unthinking as the idea of a 1000yr old 'British state'.

Come on Chris, you know better than that, surely?

(unless you have some alternative definition of 'democracy' the rest of us haven't ever heard of?)


[edit on 8-1-2005 by sminkeypinkey]



posted on Jan, 8 2005 @ 11:41 AM
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Can we get back ON TOPIC, please?




Originally posted by Croat56
I am so pissed at the EU. They won`t let Croatia in the EU because we won`t hand over general Ante Gotovina. They hate all slavic nations. Apparently a United Europe is only for the Western part of Europe. They piss me off.



hmmmm I have to disagree.
I'd say the exact oposite is true.
The whole EU, specially Germany and Austria, have invested billions in various projects around the balkans: economy, reconstruction, rebuilding of cities, infrastructure, small companies, revival of heavy industry, etc, etc, none of those is funded only by croatian/bosnian/serbian people.

As someone said, there are certain rules and regulations that apply to all countries. Once those are followed, you are in.
As far as I know, Croatia is already negotiating a membership in EU. You might be in by 2008 or 2010.

Bosnia was far more devastated during the war and is now divided in two separate entities, which are then united again, very complicated administrative bull# (excuse my language), but it had to happen in order to stop the war in 1995. The reforms are going slowly, but they are happening.
My guess is, we will be in by the year 2015 ( I am from bosnia).
Right now, Bosnia is most deffinitely NOT ready for EU. If they let us in now, we would only waste EU money and wouldn't be able to keep up with the economy of other EU states.

Serbia is doing pretty bad. They are still ruled by nationalistic parties and crazy people. It might take a while for them to be even considered for memebership.

Nobody hates slavic nations. We have not fullfiled all requirements for EU membership, thats all.



posted on Jan, 14 2005 @ 11:48 PM
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Originally posted by paperclip

Can we get back ON TOPIC, please?




Originally posted by Croat56
I am so pissed at the EU. They won`t let Croatia in the EU because we won`t hand over general Ante Gotovina. They hate all slavic nations. Apparently a United Europe is only for the Western part of Europe. They piss me off.



hmmmm I have to disagree.
I'd say the exact oposite is true.
The whole EU, specially Germany and Austria, have invested billions in various projects around the balkans: economy, reconstruction, rebuilding of cities, infrastructure, small companies, revival of heavy industry, etc, etc, none of those is funded only by croatian/bosnian/serbian people.

As someone said, there are certain rules and regulations that apply to all countries. Once those are followed, you are in.
As far as I know, Croatia is already negotiating a membership in EU. You might be in by 2008 or 2010.

Bosnia was far more devastated during the war and is now divided in two separate entities, which are then united again, very complicated administrative bull# (excuse my language), but it had to happen in order to stop the war in 1995. The reforms are going slowly, but they are happening.
My guess is, we will be in by the year 2015 ( I am from bosnia).
Right now, Bosnia is most deffinitely NOT ready for EU. If they let us in now, we would only waste EU money and wouldn't be able to keep up with the economy of other EU states.

Serbia is doing pretty bad. They are still ruled by nationalistic parties and crazy people. It might take a while for them to be even considered for memebership.

Nobody hates slavic nations. We have not fullfiled all requirements for EU membership, thats all.


Yeah I guess. I was just angry at it when I wrote this. I may have jumped the gun a little. Hey my grandfather was born in Bosnia. Great place if it wasnt for all the serbs.



posted on Feb, 13 2005 @ 03:49 AM
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keep going guys, i'm enjoying this thread!

ch ch ch cheers!



posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 02:11 PM
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Yeah, because our 1000 year old democracy could learn so much from guys like Franco and Hitler.


He does have a point that you guys allowed yourselves to be governed by Fascist dictatorships


- Now I'll step aside and you guys can carry on this debate with little of my interference but this bit just has to be challenged.


What 1000yrs old British democracy?

The first monarchy to place the monarch under the rule of law, the first country that did have a democratic (if the American system of the early 1800's can be called democratic so can the English system of nearly 1000 years), it can be claimed with some validity that this system led the way to the path of modern democracy, this shows as the first modern democracy was in place in the British colony of New Zealand, by modern democracy I mean universal sufferage and no race discrimination at the polls.


Women didn't even get the vote until 1918 and even that was over 30's only so I don't think you can claim a universal democracy of any real substance in the UK that has been existant for even just 100yrs yet Chris.



He did not claim universal democracy, he did claim it was a representative democracy (of sorts), which it was.


In 1800, the right to vote was based on wealth and gender (male). Less that 3 adults out of every 100 could vote.
Since the, there have been some significant changes to the voting regulations:

1832 Reform Act. Extended the right to vote to certain leaseholders and householders.
5 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1867 Second Reform Act. Further extension of the voting regulations in counties and boroughs.
13 adults out of every 100 could vote, but still based on wealth.

1872 Secret Ballot Act. Introduced voting by secret ballot.

1884 Representation of the People Act. Any male occupying land or property with an annual rateable value of ?10 could vote.
24 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1918 Representation of the People Act. All males over the age of 21 were given the vote. Women over 30 got the vote. Women could sit in the House of Commons as MPs.
75 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1928 Representation of the People Act. Uniform voting rights were extended to all men and women over the age of 21.
99 adults out of every 100 could vote.

1969 Representation of the People Act. The voting age was reduced to all men and women over the age of 18.

1985 Representation of the People Act. Voters who, at the time of an election, are abroad, either working or on holiday, may apply for a postal vote.

2000 Representation of the People Act. Introduced changes to electoral registration and extended postal vote provisions.


www.britainusa.com...

The often touted "1000yr British democracy" is much of a ludicrous and laughable piece of right-wing propaganda for the unthinking as the idea of a 1000yr old 'British state'.


Certainly the British State is not 1000 years old, however looking at the periods in time we are discussing giving representation to land owners was light years ahead of the rest of the world, in what was essentially a feudal system. Universal democracy could not have possibly happened until the industrial revolution was complete, when dramatic increases in education and literacy made it possible, and rightly women demanded the vote and got it, in the UK before in the USA. I believe men had the right to vote before women in Spain also (1930's), France did not allow women to vote until the 1940's, only 2 countries did prior to 1910, New Zealand, and Finland. So if anything before 1893 can be called a democracy as they usually are so can the English (and later British) system, which as any system of government has been refined over time. That said I do not share his platform of anti-EU, I am a great supporter of the EU and it clearly benefits all nations involved.

However I did not come to this forum to discuss this, I read with interest the Croatians comments, and I have a question, does he thinnk the Croatia is ready to join the EU? From my point of view it clearly is not.

I also have a comment for the Spainard, your troops were never in Iraq? Sure they were, you were a contributing factor to that mess and simply did not stay around to clear it up (however I also was not pro-war on Iraq). We with many of our fellow European Nations mistakenly went with the US into Iraq, the difference is we will stick around to try and clear that mess up. The EU is not France-Germany, and the sooner that the leaders of those countries learn that the better.

All that said I am glad to be a citizen of the EU, and I believe the majority of my fellow Britains feel the same way, the anti-EU faction just shout louder, because they are often ignored.



posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 02:16 PM
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I will get the hang of the tags ;-)



posted on Mar, 1 2005 @ 11:57 PM
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Jimmy we're more then ready to join. Everythings been rebuilt, economy is getting better and better. This year it was the number 1 travel destinatoin in the WORLD. I almost didnt get tickets this year. The EU would be crazy not to let us in with all them money we'll be making when more and more ppl hear about us and want to come to the beautiful islands and beaches.



posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 06:54 AM
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Hi Croat56, I've had a look at the issue in more detail, and I agree with you, it does seem unfair that negotiations for Croatia's entry is being delayed by this issue of the general (a former soldier in the French Foreign Legion also I believe), as the perception of EU officials is that the Croatian government is not doing all it can to find and arrest him, it is seems to me that they are doing all that is possible. But the failure to arrest these suspected war criminals is the key issue here, and I believe it is also affecting membership applications for NATO also. When negotiiations do begin, it will become neccessary for you to control your economy better, for example the average rate of growth in Croatia of the past few years has been 4% although this does not seem so impressive when you take into account the massive fiscal and current account deficits that have been used to create this growth, there is also massive need for structural reforms in your economy, however these are things EU membership negotiations would actually help to sort out. It is a pity this is all being held up because of one man, and I can see things from your point of view



posted on Mar, 2 2005 @ 02:34 PM
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Yeah and he didnt evan do anything wrong either. Its just them descriminating against us. Hell the british and the french evan supported the old yugoslavia when we were being killed.



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