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The ways of sacrifice; The basket offering

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posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 05:06 PM
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The Israelites are instructed, in Deuteronomy, to bring to the Lord a basket of the first-fruits of their crops. (Deuteronomy ch26 vv1-11)
They are to do this “when you come into the land which the Lord your God gives you for an inheritance”.
Not just the one time, of course; they are to begin doing it once they have come into the land.

The procedure is to take “some of the first of all the fruit of the ground”, collected in the basket, and hand it over to the priest who will place it in front of the Lord.

The real interest in the ceremony is the declaration which the man makes at the same time as he presents the crops.

There is a brief statement, first, which sums up the whole purpose of the ceremony;
“I declare…that I have come into the land which the Lord swore to our fathers to give us”.
In other words, my very presence in the land shows that the Lord has kept his promise, and I’m here to acknowledge the fact.

There follows a longer explanation of the good things which the Lord has done.
“A wandering Aramaean was my father”.
Commentators can argue about whether he means Abraham or Jacob, but it doesn’t really matter.
The point is that his distant ancestors were nomadic.
The formula must be ancient, because the Israelites of the time of the kings, when Aramaeans were hostile, would not have been keen to recall this kinship.

Then “my father” went down into Egypt and became a populous nation.
That was good in itself, but they were treated harshly by the Egyptians and cried to the Lord for help, so that he “brought us out of Egypt with a mighty hand”.

So the settlement in the land confers benefit in three ways.
It has “rescued” them from the nomadic life of their ancestors.
It has “rescued” them from the afflictions of Egypt.
And it provides them, year by year, with what they need for their daily survival.
All these things are being acknowledged, with gratitude.

This declaration is an example of what Hosea calls “rendering the calves [or “the fruit”] of our lips”- Hosea ch14 v2.
It’s a metaphor which we also find in Hebrews;
“Let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name”- Hebrews ch15 v13
The praise of God can be compared with sacrifice, because they have the same purpose.
In the ceremony described above, the praise is a vocalisation of the meaning of the offering, the offering is an acting out of the words of praise.

They are both expressing a sense of dependence upon God.
They express an awareness that the people have been brought out of the troubles of the past.
They express an awareness that the people have been brought into a state of well-being, and that God is providing for them.
At the same time, the actions and the words are both fostering a sense of dependence upon God, making it more conscious.

That is the real purpose of the exercise.
It's not really the case that God needs the praise, any more than he needs the sacrifice.
But the Israelites themselves, for their own sake, need to be willing to offer the praise and sacrifice.
Their actions and even their words are not important in themselves, but only in so far as they represent and encourage a state of mind.
That state of mind is a more conscious awareness of their true relationship with God.




posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 07:52 PM
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a reply to: DISRAELI




The Israelites are instructed, in Deuteronomy





If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)


or how about raping for a bit of fun...but then you have to marry her!



Deuteronomy 22:28-29: If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. [a] He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.


There you have it sacrifice.



posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 09:25 PM
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a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Other God's always refers to demon worship or Pagan rituals, often sexual, that violated the 10 commandments.

Deuteronomy prescribed punishment for giving onself over to Carnal Pagan rituals and Demon worship. This law was for the Jews to discipline Jews. This law would not be applicable to gentiles worshipping a different God.

You may not agree with the punishment, but I don't agree with Pagan Sex Rituals or Demon Worship that typically involved human sacrifice.



If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed,.... That is, meets with one in a field, which is not espoused to a man; and the man is supposed to be an unmarried man, as appears by what follows:

and lay hold on her, and lie with her, she yielding to it, and so is not expressive of a rape, as Deuteronomy 22:25 where a different word from this is there used; which signifies taking strong hold of her, and ravishing her by force; yet this, though owing to his first violent seizure of her, and so different from what was obtained by enticing words, professions of love, and promises of marriage, and the like, as in Exodus 22:16 but not without her consent:

and they be found; in the field together, and in the fact; or however there are witnesses of it, or they themselves have confessed, it, and perhaps betrayed by her pregnancy.
biblehub.com...


I agree with the commentary above. The verse you quoted is not about a rape, but a consensual act. Rape is a bad translation.


edit on 10-7-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 12:07 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73




The verse you quoted is not about a rape, but a consensual act. Rape is a bad translation.



and lay hold on her, and lie with her, she yielding to it, and so is not expressive of a rape,


Yeah, yeah. Tell it to the judge!


New International Version
If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,

New American Standard Bible
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,

King James Bible
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Holman Christian Standard Bible
If a man encounters a young woman, a virgin who is not engaged, takes hold of her and rapes her, and they are discovered,

International Standard Version
"However, if a man meets a girl who isn't engaged to be married, and he seizes her, rapes her, and is later found out,

NET Bible
Suppose a man comes across a virgin who is not engaged and overpowers and rapes her and they are discovered.

Plenty of translators explicitly call this out using the word "rape". Look at the context. This verse is obviously talking about rape!

25 “If a man meets a girl in the country who is engaged to be married and then rapes her, the man alone—the one who had sexual relations with her—must die. 26 As for the young lady, don’t do anything to her. The young lady did nothing worthy of death. This case is similar to when a man attacks his countryman and kills him. 27 Since he found her in the country, the engaged girl may have cried out, but there was no one to rescue her.

Those Old Testament dessert folk weren't going to kill a guy who had consensual sex with a betrothed girl and then let her live!

28 “However, if a man meets a girl who isn’t engaged to be married, and he seizes her, rapes her, and is later found out, 29 then the man who raped her must give 50 shekels of silver to the girl’s father. Furthermore, he must marry her. Because he violated her, he is to not divorce her as long as he lives.

Oh well, she wasn't owned at the time she was violated, so the only damage is her father's damage by not being able to sell of a violated woman.

See???? There's no question that these verses are addressing RAPE! CONTEXT!



Other God's always refers to demon worship or Pagan rituals, often sexual, that violated the 10 commandments.


Please don't throw out those tired old excuses for the Hebrew's and their god's bad behavior in the Old Testament. There's no justification for genocide. Demon worship and pagan sex.....LOL


edit on 11-7-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 12:39 AM
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a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight
The topic of this thread is the basket-sacrifice, as indicated in the title, and as outlined in the opening post.
Please keep yourself to the assigned topic, on this thread or on any other thread of mine that you choose to visit.
That is standard practice on ATS.

If you want to talk about the other laws of Deuteronomy, there is a whole series of threads which may give you an appropriate outlet;
God's Law; Your patient teacher
The specific law you quote is discussed in this thread;
God's Law; Your daughters

This thread belongs to a different series.
If you want to talk about other sacrifices, you will find other threads in my profile carrying the umbrella label "The ways of sacrifice", and more will be coming.
Staying on-topic. The key to the way abovetopsecret works.






edit on 11-7-2015 by DISRAELI because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 09:34 AM
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a reply to: windword

There are two different words used. Shakab is used in deuteronomy 22:28. If the author wanted to depict a forced situation you would think he would use the same word used in the more obvious passages about rape. But this is not the case.

taphas -
# 08610
1) to catch, handle, lay hold, take hold of, seize, wield
a) (Qal)
1) to lay hold of, seize, arrest, catch
2) to grasp (in order to) wield, wield, use skilfully
b) (Niphal) to be seized, be arrested, be caught, be taken, captured
c) (Piel) to catch, grasp (with the hands)

AV - take 27, taken 12, handle 8, hold 8, catch 4, surprised 2, misc 4; 65
(Source: Blue Letter Bible)

shakab -
# 07901
1) to lie down
a) (Qal)
1) to lie, lie down, lie on
2) to lodge
3) to lie (of sexual relations)
4) to lie down (in death)
5) to rest, relax (fig)
b) (Niphal) to be lain with (sexually)
c) (Pual) to be lain with (sexually)
d) (Hiphil) to make to lie down
e) (Hophal) to be laid

There is a more in depth answer in the link.

www.answering-islam.org...

The other thing to note is the father always has the last say. If the father does not give his daughter to the perpetrator he must pay a fine for taking her virginity.



Other God's always refers to demon worship or Pagan rituals, often sexual, that violated the 10 commandments.




Please don't throw out those tired old excuses for the Hebrew's and their god's bad behavior in the Old Testament. There's no justification for genocide. Demon worship and pagan sex.....LOL


I am telling you what the scriptures actually say about the foreign God's in question. If you don't believe that they were practicing Pagan Sex Rituals that included incest and pedophilia, and that they were sacraficing children in the fire to Moloch, then the entire story as well as the punishments are irrelevant.

Would you be ok with Pagan pedophilia and ritual sacrafice? YHWH thought that Pagan incest, pedophilia and ritual sacrifice deserved the death penalty.

You either believe the story behind the law, or you have no right to comment on it. The only difference in modern law is we incarcerate pedophiles and give the same death penalty to ritual premeditated murders.

Without understanding the reasons why they would be sentenced to death it is easy to over react. Having an actual understanding of the texts it is clear that other God's always meant Pagan Sex Rituals and Demon worship in the OT.

edit on 11-7-2015 by Isurrender73 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 09:39 AM
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a reply to: Isurrender73
I do have another thread where that issue can be discussed;
God's Law; Your daughters
If you could transfer it there, that would be appreciated.

As distinct from feeding the trolls who are setting out to derail this one.



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: DISRAELI

Sorry, Dis. I don't mean to derail your thread. I am compelled to provide one last response. I contemplated posting my answer in your other thread, but then I'd have to transfer the whole conversation for it to make sense.

But sacrifice was brought up, albeit a different sacrifice than a basket of fruit, so I'll just make this short and sweet and then back out of your "Basket Offering" sacrifice thread.

a reply to: Isurrender73



Would you be ok with Pagan pedophilia and ritual sacrafice? YHWH thought that Pagan incest, pedophilia and ritual sacrifice deserved the death penalty.



If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)


You're talking about using 4000 year old ancient superstitious and ignorant nonsense to justify genocide.


UNACCEPTABLE!



and lay hold on her, and lie with her, she yielding to it, and so is not expressive of a rape,


CONTEXT - CONTEXT - CONTEXT! Read the entire passage. This passage refers to rape and only rape! There is no other way to read it.

I find your offensive apologetic attitude toward rape and genocide to be absolutely disgusting, inappropriate and shameful!




edit on 11-7-2015 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: windword

The historians agree with me about the Pagan Practices. They are not the fairy tales as you claim, unless every historian from the time is telling the same fable. Baal worship, Moloch worship, Temple Prostitution wich included institutionalized pedophilia, and Human sacrifice for power are all real history.

You can Google these things for yourself as I find them mostly inappropriate to link to.



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 04:23 PM
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a reply to: Isurrender73

Yes, yes, yes. We all know that Pagans existed. First the Jews slaughtered them in the name of their god, then the Christians slaughtered them in the name of their god.

We don't find it acceptable to kill Pagans these days, and we don't accept such excuses as "God told them to kill Pagans" to justify the bad behavior of our ancestors.

/end of discussion.........



posted on Jul, 12 2015 @ 02:06 PM
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For information
This thread is resuming a series which began last year.
The series will be alternating with another series of threads over the next few weeks. The pattern is a little complicated, but I think it works.



posted on Jul, 12 2015 @ 03:11 PM
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Thanks DISRAELI, that's some good insight into the word...


originally posted by: DISRAELI

It's not really the case that God needs the praise, any more than he needs the sacrifice.
But the Israelites themselves, for their own sake, need to be willing to offer the praise and sacrifice.
Their actions and even their words are not important in themselves, but only in so far as they represent and encourage a state of mind.
That state of mind is a more conscious awareness of their true relationship with God.


Your op, brings to mind some of the chit chat with friends.Often when we're catching up, some of the little stories we share go along this kind of theme.It's not obvious, but I have noticed this dynamic when it comes to sharing the faith.It's easy to forget the gifts of the spirit sometimes, I find that sharing examples of the way it has touched us in our day to day lives makes it easier to remember the love God shows everyone. This helps us to remain strong in our walk with the Lord.It's a form of fellowship that goes easily unnoticed by those who focus on other things.This form of giving thanks, is special and keeps the mind elevated.

When strangers or acquaintances share these kind of sentiments it to takes the edge of trips, reminding one that Love is close to us.It really contrasts with the mundane gossip of others, while encouraging one to remember the better parts of our experience.It's something to look forward to.

edit on 12-7-2015 by dffrntkndfnml because: grammer



posted on Jul, 12 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: dffrntkndfnml
Yes, talking about things helps to fix them in the mind.
As does writing (which is why the Puritans began keeping diaries).
Thank you for those comments.



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