All people are sinners.

It seems as though there is a real battle going on between Christians and everybody else on this forum. Personally, I am non spiritual to the point that atheism is to organized a religion for me. But if I were to cast myself in the light of how a christian is supposed to live, I would have to judge myself a sinner. Too bad it seems as though people who publicly cast themselves in that light want to scream about everybody else's sins and shortcomings without first looking to themselves. All are humans, no one is perfect, and from my experience in the pentecostal church, this tends to be overlooked. That being said, if hell does exist, I fully expect to see 99.9% of humanity burning right along wit me. In other words, see you in hell, cause that's where we are all going.

a reply to: Benderisfunny
The Christian faith starts on the basis that all people are sinners.
But that doesn't have to lead into "all people end up in hell". Other outcomes are possible.

originally posted by: Benderisfunny
Too bad it seems as though people who publicly cast themselves in that light want to scream about everybody else's sins and shortcomings without first looking to themselves.

This is how we KNOW that so-called Christians are using the excuse of "sin" as a reason to exact PERSONAL discrimination against others.

If a religious business person chooses to discriminate against gay people because something is a "sin", and yet they serve everyone else without checking the "sin status" of every customer (knowing that we all ALL sinners, according to their religion), then they are only discriminating against one small segment of "sinners", because of some personal bigotry. What WILL their God do, when he finds out that they've been serving liars, fornicators, atheists, women on birth control or who've aborted, the divorced, masturbaters and others?

I was a Christian for 30 years. According to Christianity, we are ALL sinners.

So what is wrong with being a sinner since everyone else is. All my friends are going to hell, so why would I want to go to a place where I don't know anybody?

a reply to: Benderisfunny

a reply to: Benderisfunny

Too bad it seems as though people who publicly cast themselves in that light want to scream about everybody else's sins and shortcomings without first looking to themselves.

Thats because in that Churchian understanding all sins have been 'forgiven' already. Just believe it…

Major fault line there, lots of sins are justified that way.

a reply to: Benderisfunny

We are born ignorant, we sin as children because we don't understand the outcome. As we get older and wiser we can learn to overcome our stupidity by listening to the voice of Love and Reason, the Holy Spirit within.

The challenge is to overcome your sinful nature by understanding the suffering you cause. When you see the suffering caused by the sinful nature, you learn why it is sinful.

The one who has matured in his spirituality will overcome the sinful nature, not by eliminating it, but by ignoring it, since you alread know that sin leads to suffering.

If you know what you are doing leads to suffering it is sin for you. Why would anyone want to do things that lead to suffering?

We are born physically and mentally imperfect. But we all have the same ability to become spiritually righteous by overcoming the sinful nature.

We are born ignorant which leads us into sin, but we are not born perpetually imperfect. The Holy Spirt, who is without sin, is the internal voice of Love and Reason designed to lead us away from sin.

Learn to listen to and obey the voice of Love and Reason and you will overcome all suffering caused by your actions.

a reply to: Klassified

There's no such thing as sin, in the biblical sense. In modern usage, it gets applied to just about anything and everything, we as a society, agree is wrong. With variables of course.

So, murder, rape and pillage is okay, then. Go try it and tell me how that works for your "conscience".

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Agreed. This little rant came about because I was at a at a guitar center here locally, and I had a shirt on that said lamb of god. This old man came up and said he was glad to see I wasn't one of the godless sinners ruining our nation. I told him that I was not a christian, and that I was just as much a sinner as he was. Then he asked me why I would wear a shirt proclaiming to be a christian. I whipped out my phone and played now you've got something to die for. The man nearly went in to apoplexy about how anyone could be so blasphemous. The man actually called me a worthless piece of # right there in the store. I asked him why he could think and believe whatever he wanted, but I was wrong for doing the same. That's when he called mea smart mouth bastard, and proceeded to tell me how ashamed my mother should be. All I wanted was some new strings. What I got was verbal assault and a reinforcement in the idea that most christians ( though not all) are pompous, arrogant, holier than thou hypocrites.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Klassified

There's no such thing as sin, in the biblical sense. In modern usage, it gets applied to just about anything and everything, we as a society, agree is wrong. With variables of course.

So, murder, rape and pillage is okay, then. Go try it and tell me how that works for your "conscience".

I said nothing of the sort, sir. I addressed "sin".
"Sin" is disobedience to god and/or transgression of god's law. Since there is no god(in the sense humans conceive), there is also no such thing as sin. That still doesn't make "murder, rape and pillage" okay in our society.

a reply to: Isurrender73

I can honestly say I do not cause suffering to others by the way that I live. Just because I am not christian does not mean that I am some raving satanist maniac. The church i was forced into was heavy on if you don't worship god, you are worshipping Satan.

a reply to: DISRAELI

I say almost everybody is go into hell if there is one, because almost all of us travel very similar paths. Regardless of religion.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: Benderisfunny
The Christian faith starts on the basis that all people are sinners.
But that doesn't have to lead into "all people end up in hell". Other outcomes are possible.

To say we are all sinners is true.
We all make mistakes.
No one is perfect.

However, that does not equate to "all people end up in hell"

It does equate to:
you have no right to judge others and call them a sinner
because you are a sinner, I am a sinner, we are all sinner's

Gossip is a sin
Telling a lie is a sin
Envy for what someone else has is a sin
Looking at someone other than your spouse for sexual purposes or thoughts is a sin (because it is objectifying them and not seeing them as a human being, but an object of gratification)

Jesus said he came for sinners
not for the self-righteous
not for the perfect
not for the judgmental
As a matter of fact,
Jesus said that those people
WILL go to hell.

So if you are hurt by someone being
self-righteous and judgmental -
and they are a Christian -
call them on it
that is what the New Testament says to do
tell them to their face, in person,
that Jesus himself said that they will go to hell
for judging you and being self-righteous.

If you want to know what Christ says about
how to go to heaven.
I recommend that you
read this book: Just Jesus
on Amazon for 99cents.
It is only the words of Christ himself
and leaves out everything else.
No commentary, no explanations,
just the words of Jesus that are recorded
in the New Testament.

However, if you expect Christians to behave
like Christ, you will be disappointed
because humans are humans and
will make mistakes.
Christians can only do their best to live
up to what they should be.
Then ask forgiveness when they fail,
pick themselves up and try again to
live life according to the words of Christ.
They are not perfect, never will be, and
if you expect that of them, you will be
sorely disappointed.

What defines "Sin" is subjective to the particular religion, denomination, sect, belief, or ideology.

Sin is a choice. We choose all of our own words and actions on a conscious and subconscious level. To accept sin as a way of life is to reject self-responsibility and accountability for our words and actions. Sin is a choice.

originally posted by: Benderisfunny
a reply to: Isurrender73

I can honestly say I do not cause suffering to others by the way that I live. Just because I am not christian does not mean that I am some raving satanist maniac. The church i was forced into was heavy on if you don't worship god, you are worshipping Satan.

If you are not causing suffering to yourself or others, then you are not sinning.

It is possible to unknowingly sin, because we are ignorant, but if you are not knowingly sinning then you are following the Voice of Love and Reason.

This is the foundation of the texts. Overcome hurting yourself and others. God will sort out the rest, because we are not judges and the texts do not allow forced conversion.

The religious have forgotten about Love in their attempt to please God through rituals.

originally posted by: Benderisfunny
I say almost everybody is go into hell if there is one, because almost all of us travel very similar paths.

No, that doesn't follow, because it does depend on the criteria for "going into hell".

originally posted by: Isurrender73
The one who has matured in his spirituality will overcome the sinful nature, not by eliminating it, but by ignoring it, since you alread know that sin leads to suffering.

So, even the most religiously enlightened person still doesn't stop sinning, they just learn to ignore it when they do?

If you know what you are doing leads to suffering it is sin for you. Why would anyone want to do things that lead to suffering?

Suffering for whom? If a person discriminates, it leads to suffering for the discriminated. If a loving gay couple gets married, who suffers? No one. Why is it a sin, then? But the discrimination is not?

We are born physically and mentally imperfect. But we all have the same ability to become spiritually righteous by overcoming the sinful nature.

So, these people who "become spiritually righteous and overcome the sinful nature" no longer sin? They are physically and mentally perfect now? I would agree that we are born physically and mentally imperfect, but we die that way, too, NO MATTER who we are or whether we practice religion or not.

We are born ignorant which leads us into sin, but we are not born perpetually imperfect. The Holy Spirt, who is without sin, is the internal voice of Love and Reason designed to lead us away from sin.

But still does not lead us to perfection in this life? So, while we are born ignorant and imperfect, we die that way, too.

Learn to listen to and obey the voice of Love and Reason and you will overcome all suffering caused by your actions.

I completely agree. Love and Reason are not the same as religion. Not at all.

originally posted by: Klassified
originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: Klassified

There's no such thing as sin, in the biblical sense. In modern usage, it gets applied to just about anything and everything, we as a society, agree is wrong. With variables of course.

So, murder, rape and pillage is okay, then. Go try it and tell me how that works for your "conscience".

I said nothing of the sort, sir. I addressed "sin".
"Sin" is disobedience to god and/or transgression of god's law. Since there is no god(in the sense humans conceive), there is also no such thing as sin. That still doesn't make "murder, rape and pillage" okay in our society.

"Sin" is going against what you know is right in your heart. Regardless of the 'rules" you know its not okay to murder someone. You know that, not because the rules say so, or because you'll be punished if you do "by society", you don't do it because you know its wrong to kill.

For all the arguments that say, well, we do it all the time as a nation in war, I agree. People that have been led away from their reason, have been programmed to kill and once killed enough lose their moral compass bearing…

That doesn't make it okay. Pangs of conscience are not because society says it is or isn't okay. Its in our heart of hearts, its innate. In that sense unlearned.

a reply to: grandmakdw

See, I think you have this backwards. I could care less if everyone is a sinner, because I k now by the biblical definition everyone is. I am pointing out that most Christians I come into contact with are expecting even those outside their faith to adhere to the same scriptural codes that they do. This book is not for me. I have read the bible. Both testaments, and it is an interesting story. I guess I should say that I was physically forced by the pentecostals to read the bible. One of my worst experiences was a beating I got for not falling down when the preacher but his palm on my forehead. Part was for embarrising my parents in front of the congregation, part was to beat Satan out of me. So I guess what I am saying is that does it matter if younask forgiveness for something you never stop doing? (IE: judging and beating a kid for questioning a belief system.) So I say ask away for forgiveness, but if god is real, seems like he might expect people to become better instead of just coin the same thin over and over again. That is the reasoning behind the thought that if there is a hell almost all of us will be in it.

a reply to: Sahabi

Thank you! It is my way of life...according to those who care about such things.