Bakers Ordered to Pay $135,000 for Refusing Gay Wedding Service

a reply to: Gryphon66


I'm not sure where you're from, but where I live this is already done in some stores. Buying cans of spray paint, large amounts of fuel, ammo, etc...

And yes, it does sometimes slow things down. It even stops a sale here and there.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: ketsuko

Sadly for christians, christianity did not invent marriage, as such they can only define religious marriage by their own faith. Which means they have no religious reason not to make a cake for anyone not having a christian wedding.

Alas christianity does not own the term marriage, did not invent it, and has no right to complain about anyone not getting married within the confines of their religion.

A secular marriage has literally no bearing on their religious beliefs what so ever.

We do, however, have the right to live according to the tenets of our belief. If we do not, there is no true freedom of religion as belief is not something that stops at the doors of church/synagogue/mosque/temple on whatever day your day of worship may be.

If that's all you believe it to be, than you really only believe in freedom of worship, not true freedom of religion.

originally posted by: TheBulk

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: 9thWatcher
Revelation 2:10
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

It's so nice that Christians have a catch-all so they don't have to take responsibility for their awfulness. "We don't have to change our ways! See! It's predicted in our book that we will be persecuted for our beliefs!"

It's interesting to me how NOBODY hammering Christians on this will do the same to Muslims in this country. Why is that? Why aren't gay people targeting their businesses? Why isn't the media? There is a clear agenda afoot and it has NOTHING to do with equality.

Ah, gotta love this strawman whenever it pops up. Maybe because Muslims aren't actively trying to suppress gay rights in this country? Yes, I know that Muslims mistreat gays in the Middle East, but this isn't the Middle East. It is the United States, and the people pushing anti-gay legislation and actively discriminating against gays are the Christians. Sorry if you don't like it, but don't drag another group down into your misery.

So is anyone willing to admit they are Pro-Discrimination?

originally posted by: CrawlingChaos
a reply to: Gryphon66


I'm not sure where you're from, but where I live this is already done in some stores. Buying cans of spray paint, large amounts of fuel, ammo, etc...

And yes, it does sometimes slow things down. It even stops a sale here and there.

Atlanta, Georgia since you asked so kindly.

So, asking about a smattering of products is the same as asking about all products? So that the store owner or even a cashier can decide if their faith would allow them to "participate" in such an activity, by doing their job?

Have you really thought this through?

a reply to: ketsuko

But religion is a Belief System, it can not create Laws or control other people.... sorry but you are not above people or the Law

a reply to: TheBulk

Hmmm so tell me, what power do the muslims have in the US? How much pull do they have? How huge an impact are they having trying to influence the government to discriminate against minorities on their behalf are they having? Do the muslims have power in the US like christians? Are they all over the place? Are they in a position where they can realistically try and force others to follow their religious beliefs above all others?

The fact is, the christians (not all christians) are the ones who both have the power, but are the poster children for hate, they were when blacks were fighting for equality, and now they are for when the LGBT community is. Same song and dance.

Were we in the middle east, then yeah, the muslims would be more the "bad guys" here.

"Living by the tenets of our faith" does not equate to "doing whatever we want and blaming it on our religion."

And neither are equal to not " establishing a religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

Period.

a reply to: Gryphon66

That's not really the situation I posited though.

EDIT: That does happen though... In the state I live, if I came to the counter with a couple packs of cold medicine, a gross of matches, several cans of lighter fluid.. See where I'm going with this ? Yes, they would ask me about all of those items, and most likely refuse the sale.

a reply to: TheBulk

Well a guy did do a video where he went to Muslim bakeries and tried to get them to decorate a cake with gay depictions.
They refused to decorate the cake but some did offer to bake a cake without the decoration he wanted.

Do you have an example of a muslim bakery denying a gay couple a cake and not getting attention?

a reply to: Gryphon66

Oh, please, I did read that part also, but He goes on to say the Creator said and defined marriage from it.

Now you're as bad as the Pharisees playing legalese!



Christ clearly defined marriage, and he used God's own definition from the start to do it. If Christ felt marriage needed to be defined ANY OTHER WAY, He would have done so. That much is certain. It's not like he was teaching outside the Roman Empire or anything where homosexuality was widely tolerated.

Basically, He did the equivalent of what I'm doing here: He taught the most unpopular opinion on marriage possible for that day and age - man and woman.

If He wanted to be liked, He could have picked polygamy or an "inclusive" homosexual variant of marriage, but He didn't. It was man/woman and no divorce.

a reply to: ketsuko

We do, however, have the right to live according to the tenets of our belief.

Well, the ones they choose to abide by anyway.

a reply to: ketsuko

You just admitted that marriage already existed and thus is not the sole province of christianity.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
So is anyone willing to admit they are Pro-Discrimination?

Absolutely.

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm not the Pharisee here.

You're saying that your bible says something it does not say.

Show me in Genesis where the text reads "And god said" thus and so about marriage You can't. You know why?

It's not what it says. Ditto JC and the NT.

Even as you're QUOTING it you're blind to what the words actually are on the screen by your belief.

Christ did not define marriage, and neither did your god YHVH. Most of the notable "Faithful of God" in the Old Testament were polygamists.

Don't flatter yourself. What your'e doing is nothing like your Jesus was doing.

You're merely mouthing dogma and misrepresenting your own holy book.

originally posted by: Darth_Prime
So is anyone willing to admit they are Pro-Discrimination?

Because the issue cannot be boiled down to such black and white. There are many people who are anti-abortion but also pro-choice, for example.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: ketsuko

You just admitted that marriage already existed and thus is not the sole province of christianity.

I never said it was, but just because you say it's one thing does not give you the power to define it for everybody. I thought that was the reasoning behind this fight to begin with?

If your reasoning to take up the fight was sound, then it's still true, and if it was unfair for us to force you to comply, then it is equally unfair for you to force those of us who disagree to comply.

a reply to: CrawlingChaos

Some cold medicines contain legally-limited chemicals and are usually behind the desk.

Are you really saying that you think Walmart would keep you from buying matches and lighter fluid???

C'mon.

Here's what your claim was:

I think this is the problem, people are not seeing the distinction between serving a gay client, and providing materials to a ceremony one doesn't support.

Providing materials to a ceremony (use) one doesn't support.

Not "limiting the sale of potentially harmful devices or chemicals as per State and Federal law."

See the difference?

If you want this to be the way the laws are interpreted, then you have to be willing to expand the general idea to everyone.

For example:

"Why are you buying these condoms, Mr. Smith? Are you going to have illicit sex? I don't agree with that because of my religion, I can't sell these to you."

"Why are you buying this pork, Mr. Jones? The Bible says that pork is forbidden, and I believe in the Bible. I don't agree with your buying these products, so I can't sell these to you."

Etc. etc. etc.

It's not up to a business person to decide how and when their products will be used, or, if it is, I want to see it applied to something besides wedding cakes and photographs.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Just because you can't read punctuation ...

You probably have trouble interpreting the 2nd Amendment too.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Gryphon66

Just because you can't read punctuation ...

You probably have trouble interpreting the 2nd Amendment too.

Please. I read punctuation fine. You actively misrepresented what your bible says.

If not quote Genesis, quote Matthew, quote anything else and show where the text says "And God said _____" or "And Jesus said ______" with the blank being "marriage is between a man and a woman only."

You can't. You know you can't. And that's why you're desperately trying to throw up the 2nd Amendment as a smoke screen.

That's pretty desperate.

It's easy to resolve this. Just quote your bible. Show us where your god said what marriage is or where Jesus said what marriage is. Not your interpretation, not your church's interpretation ... just the text ... just the Word.