Hoover officially supporting disc at Roswell?

The following link is to an OFFICIAL government document, released by the Freedom of Information Act.

ufologie.net...

Note that this is just a few days after the Roswell crash recovery...and by none other than Hoover himself. It is beyond dispute as being official, as it is on the FOIA site reading room.

Two days prior to this, there was an official FBI memo supporting the balloon story of Roswell. However, here, two days later, we have Hoover explaining his frustration at not being allowed access to prior crashed discs, and expressing his desire for access to this one. Admittedly, the only connection to Roswell seems to be the date, but it certainly is suspisciously dated. The important thing to note about this memo is that this is the FBI head admitting that a disc is NOT part of an armed forces research project. This is stated plainly in black and white.

It does point to some such events as being hoaxes (remember there was an official government reward for this info at the time), but it is clear that in this case, he is pushing for FBI involvement with this disc.

Here's a link to show the authenticity of the doc...

ufologie.net...

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Gazrok]

Yep... If its real it is evidence, very strong such.

Interesting find gazrok.

What do you think it means tho, that the gov releases this report, while simultaneously claiming that rosewell was a test of crash dummies and parachutes?


What I mean is, they aren't saying 'yes, it was flying saucers' right?

Is it possible that Hoover thought it was a crashed flying saucer because of the same reports that the general public had gotten and made them think it was a flying saucer?

I find it noteworthy that there is no mention of bodies.

Very intersting none the less. They give no explanation for the report?

Nope. If you check the link I got it from, the other memo, dated on the 8th, seems to follow the military's statement that it was a balloon. In THAT memo, they refer to the metallic hexagon, the balloon, etc. The news story of a crashed disc went out on the 7th, then it was explained away the next day, so the memo on the 8th is really just reiterating what the military claimed that morning.

Yet, in THIS memo dated two days later, here we have an agent (Ladd) claiming that he doesn't think the FBI should get involved. We then have Hoover saying that the agent should agree to the General's request (which as suggested by the first paragraph, is to get involved with the investigations), as long as he can get full access to the crashed disc.

In effect, this further blows the Mogul idea out of the water officially, as we have a General stating that it is NOT an experiment done by the military, and he is recommending that the FBI look into it as well. Had this been a Mogul balloon, NONE of this would have been necessary.

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok
In effect, this further blows the Mogul idea out of the water officially, as we have a General stating that it is NOT an experiment done by the military, and he is recommending that the FBI look into it as well. Had this been a Mogul balloon, NONE of this would have been necessary.

Not to mention they wouldnt still call it a flying disc.

What do you think it means tho, that the gov releases this report, while simultaneously claiming that rosewell was a test of crash dummies and parachutes?

I'm assuming that because it doesn't contain the words "Roswell" or "New Mexico", they figure there's always plausible deniability that this memo is in regards to the Roswell case. However, since we have no other crash in that timeframe, nor hoaxed case, etc., one can easily assume that the only candidate for this memo's subject is the Roswell crash. We already know the dummies excuse is bogus, as they were part of a test done 5 years after Roswell, and also had nothing to do with the purpose of Mogul.

In fact, in trying to use the dummies as an explanation, the Air Force was basically admitting that there were bodies in the first place, that needed to be explained!!! They would have been better off simply dismissing talk of "bodies" as hogwash, but their persistence in trying to explain the bodies has actually backfired, as it shows they are confirming that witnesses did indeed see bodies!!!

A fascinating find, Gazrok. I'm curious about a number of things.

• For one, why did they need to blah-out Mr. (blah)?
  
• What is Col. Forcey a member of? Looks like MI6, or MIB...
  
• If Col. Forcey was from MI6, then it could be in regards to it not being British experiments.
  
• The memo specifically says "Army" or "Navy" experiments. It says nothing about the Air Force, the ones most likely to have experimental aircraft.
  
• I do find the wording of this phrase to be very interesting: "...it being noted that a great bulk of these alleged discs reported found have been pranks..." This not only implies more than one disc, but also that some of these discs weren't pranks...
  
• It seems like Hoover agrees not to send the FBI, but wants them to have access to the discs in case something is found.
  

Sooo... My guess is that the disc was either an Air Force X-plane, or that if it was an alien craft, that they had found others in the past, and hadn't quite figured out what to do with them yet. My money is on the USAF X-Plane, though.

Originally posted by thelibra

The memo specifically says "Army" or "Navy" experiments. It says nothing about the Air Force, the ones most likely to have experimental aircraft.

Technically it was still USAAF in 1947, or United States Army Air Force. So with meaning "Army", the Air Force might be included.

[edit on 27-12-2004 by merka]

The memo specifically says "Army" or "Navy" experiments. It says nothing about the Air Force, the ones most likely to have experimental aircraft.

As merka mentions, the Air Force wasn't yet created. This was July 10th, 1947. Truman wouldn't sign the National Security Act till later this month, thus creating the Air Force and the CIA. Neither existed at the time of this memo, so it makes sense the FBI would be trying to get in on this.

Re-read the memo. The General is suggesting that the FBI should get involved. The agent disagrees, but Hoover says to follow the General's advice as long as he can get access to the discs. (Well, Hoover says "do it", so it's hard to infer which he meant here, but if they weren't going to get involved, then access would hardly be necessary, so I'm assuming the "do it" referred to the General's suggestion...)

As for authenticity, I've already stated that it was a released document from the Freedom of Information Act, so it is authenticated (and easily verified given the information in the first post in this thread).

I do find the wording of this phrase to be very interesting: "...it being noted that a great bulk of these alleged discs reported found have been pranks..." This not only implies more than one disc, but also that some of these discs weren't pranks...

True, but this could also mean that some were military, etc.

What is Col. Forcey a member of? Looks like MI6, or MIB...

MID Military Intelligence Division...remember, this was before the creation of the CIA.

For one, why did they need to blah-out Mr. (blah)?

An excellent question... My guess is that the name refers to someone who would later be a member of Majestic. To have such a name in an official document referring to discs, would likely be a bad idea, thus they censored it. It has to be a fairly short name of about 5-6 characters... My guess is Mr. G. Gray (Gordon Gray, Assistant Secretary of the Army who later became the National Security Advisor and then Director of the CIA's Psychological Strategy Board). The others with names that short would have been called "Dr." or would have had rank preceeding their names.... Of course, there could be other reasons for the name to remain secret...who knows?

[edit on 27-12-2004 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Gazrok

What do you think it means tho, that the gov releases this report, while simultaneously claiming that rosewell was a test of crash dummies and parachutes?

I'm assuming that because it doesn't contain the words "Roswell" or "New Mexico", they figure there's always plausible deniability that this memo is in regards to the Roswell case. However, since we have no other crash in that timeframe, nor hoaxed case, etc., one can easily assume that the only candidate for this memo's subject is the Roswell crash. We already know the dummies excuse is bogus, as they were part of a test done 5 years after Roswell, and also had nothing to do with the purpose of Mogul.

In fact, in trying to use the dummies as an explanation, the Air Force was basically admitting that there were bodies in the first place, that needed to be explained!!! They would have been better off simply dismissing talk of "bodies" as hogwash, but their persistence in trying to explain the bodies has actually backfired, as it shows they are confirming that witnesses did indeed see bodies!!!

I have always thought that about the explanation of the "bodies" but never posted on it. I wonder why no one talks about the fact that they felt they had to have an explanation for the bodies this time around. To me that proves their was something to the bodies.

[edit on 27-12-2004 by swordfish]

Well they quietly slipped this one out didnt they, although I was certain Roswell was the best evidence of ufos before the revealing of this document, I most definately am now.

There are so many foia docs, from the fbi on ufo's and
from the department of defense and also the NSA it's all one giant blur after reading a few hundred pages of bad photocopies...Hats off to Gazrok for finding a trip up in their own memo's.

There are so many foia docs, from the fbi on ufo's and
from the department of defense and also the NSA it's all one giant blur after reading a few hundred pages of bad photocopies...

Yep, that's pretty much happened. As it is, I've read pretty much all of them at one time or another and I never really grasped this memo's importance. The clincher for me was seeing them in date order. I had read the one on the 8th, and noticed it pretty much matched the military story verbatim (i.e. they were likely ordered to get on board, so that all could agree, and the issue could be put to bed). I'm betting the memo on the 10th was never intended to see the light of day, but since it didn't list any locations, incidents, etc. it was deemed "safe" to release.

I searched for each day though, from the 8th to the 10th, to see if there were any other crashes/disc recoveries, even if just stories or hoaxes, etc. There aren't, other than Roswell. This memo describes a disc recovery that involved the Army, at some point prior to the 10th. It's as simple as that.

Well, let's see... Pretty much all my questions were answered then. I have to say, this is pretty convincing evidence. And if the Air Force wasn't around yet, and it wasn't the Army or the Navy...and it sure as heck wasn't the Russians or the Germans... And pretty much everyone else in the world was not even in a position technologically or resource-wise to produce these craft. The memo does specifically state that the "bulk" of the crashes were fakes...which means some were real...

...but for some reason, an alien spacecraft still seems far-fetched. Despite all the other evidence, I still have trouble believing that an alien ship crashed at Roswell... It just doesn't pan out, mathematically for the distance they'd have had to travel.

...unless they didn't travel from star to star, but perhaps between dimensions?

Originally posted by thelibra
Well, let's see... Pretty much all my questions were answered then. I have to say, this is pretty convincing evidence. And if the Air Force wasn't around yet, and it wasn't the Army or the Navy...and it sure as heck wasn't the Russians or the Germans... And pretty much everyone else in the world was not even in a position technologically or resource-wise to produce these craft. The memo does specifically state that the "bulk" of the crashes were fakes...which means some were real...

...but for some reason, an alien spacecraft still seems far-fetched. Despite all the other evidence, I still have trouble believing that an alien ship crashed at Roswell... It just doesn't pan out, mathematically for the distance they'd have had to travel.

...unless they didn't travel from star to star, but perhaps between dimensions?

I used to use the mathematically the distance they had to travel theory to convince myself that it could not be aliens then I realized. The universe is 13 billion yrs of age. Our civilization is not even close to that. Imagine if we can survive say another 150000 years imagine what kind of technology we will have the wormholes we will be able to create. The probes we may be able to send to far off places to self replicate our civilization. Assume nothing.

It just doesn't pan out, mathematically for the distance they'd have had to travel.

...unless they didn't travel from star to star, but perhaps between dimensions?

That's pretty much the idea. You'll see many references in some of the early UFO (or UFOB as they were often called at the time) documents that the craft used some kind of electromagnetic wave propogation to "warp" space/time. This is also cited by Lazar, but despite what you may think of him, there are many other sources stating this. If this is so, then it pretty much answers the distance factor, as well as the other questions that military personell had when viewing the wreckage. Mundane questions such as "where are the sleeping quarters, the bathroom, the food stores, the water tanks, etc."??? If capable of nearly instantaneous travel, then of course, such things wouldn't be needed. Of course, the possibility that they were operating out of an orbiting mothership cannot be discounted as an explanation either.

Good work Gazrok, pretty convincing to say the least. We've got some good evidence here, now what do we do with it? Is there some official channels we can contact to try to get this info out?

As to it still not making sense that an alien craft could traverse the vast distance of space to get here, that's not important nor comprehendible to us at the moment. What's important is that they made it here.

[edit on 28/12/04 by Meteor_of_War]

The memo has been out a while I think, just that I never really saw it by date and made the connection before...

Where can I find the document from the site on the FBI's reading room? what document is it? what number? what page?

This is very convincing...

Here's the link to the reading room...

foia.fbi.gov...

I saw it from another site, and it had all the right credentials and I'd seen it before from FOIA. They (FOIA) don't really have a good index (they don't WANT it to be easy). Instead of each document being a separate link, they have it in sections, with often 100 pages in a section all in .pdf format. If I try to view it at work, it crashes me, hehe.... Best suggestion is to look under "Unusual Phenomena" (under Roswell, you're only going to see the same info as the July 8th memo) or under "Hoover" in the famous persons section (75 pages worth)....

EDIT: Their Search function also sucks, giving me nothing but a short bio for Ladd. But Clyde Tolson shows up, so might be there too...

EDIT: Found it. Go to the link above, then to "Unusual Phenomena", and then "Unidentified Flying Objects". It's in the very first section, page 45. Also, be sure to read page 44, as it reiterates the General's suggestions!

[edit on 28-12-2004 by Gazrok]