Just because it's natural doesn't make it right.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

No he wasn't, it was against the Law.. do you Understand? i'm sorry if you can't understand

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147, Darth_Prime, and windword

Ok, let me splain it to you, Lucy.

In many Christian circles, it is percieved to be a sin to willingly and knowingly aid another person(s) in commiting a sin. In Christianity, gay marriage is also percieved by most to be a sin.

Sure, I can agree to this.

The only thing is, a cake is not going to make or break a wedding legally. Many people have cupcakes in place of wedding cakes, or cookies, or anything else. A sweet does not allow or disallow someone to get married.

There for making a cake for a gay person, because they are gay, is simply a matter of intolerance.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147, Darth_Prime, and windword
Now, if Churches who refuse to marry homosexuals (and many will refuse) are treated the same way, then freedom of religion will be violated on a much larger scale.

Again with the church nonsense? The new law directly states that same-sex marriage is LEGALLY ALLOWED. Which means no church is legally obligated to hold a wedding for a gay couple. It will NEVER occur by force. get over yourself.

a reply to: Ghost147

But what if Cthulhu shows up and wants to get married in the church!

Oh no!

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Not only are you fundamentally wrong on this issue, but wouldn't trust you to stand up for anyone's rights.

Im fine with homosexuals getting married. Like I said, America is not a theocracy, but marriage should not be in the hands of the government, but in the hands of religious instutions. Let them make the choice.

That way, homosexuals can get married and us fundies dont have to bake your cakes.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

In many Christian circles, it is percieved to be a sin to willingly and knowingly aid another person(s) in commiting a sin.

So, does the Christian baker also make sure that couples wanting a wedding cake from them aren't previously married divorcees as well? The baker would be aiding in their living in adulterous sin. After all, sin is sin, right?

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147

Addictions don't occur from birth...

Tell that to the babies who are born addicted to heroine and crack. Maybe there is some event in the womb that does trigger homosexual tendencies, but that is in the flesh, not the soul. Your sexual preference is a choice.

We aren't animals, and if you consider humans to be animals, then you have to excuse murder, rape, and pedophilia to be as legitimate as homosexuality is.

The LGBT movement is defending a double standard and trying to dismiss personal responsibility.

We know that mammalian nature functions in an orderly manor with heterosexuality, and so has society...up until now.

My mother and father who are devout Christians are on ATS in that other thread and they would like to talk with you.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

But i'm not fundamentally wrong, you think your religion is above the law, that is delusional. they broke the law, that is truth because Oregon has a State Law that doesn't allow discrimination pointblank period.com.org.co.uk

Marriage is not controlled by Religion though, I as well as many others have said "Churches can not be forced to Marry a Same-Sex couple" and yet you and others continue to beat the same dead horse. you refuse to see logic and either pretend to not understand, or truly don't understand.. if you truly can't understand that the Bakery broke the law, and that Religion is not above the Law then i'm sorry

a reply to: JadeStar

I don't know who they are or what thread you're talking about, but they are welcome to PM me.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Hello ATS,

I am Brian, father of Jade(star) who you obviously know quite well. I am here with my wife, Tamara and we have read through this thread as well as another which Jade pointed out to us a few weeks ago dealing with administering hormone blocking medical treatments to postpone puberty. Both in that thread and in this one we've seen a great deal of misunderstanding and in some cases, downright hostility towards helping these kids live a better life.

We are both open for any questions you may have about what we went through raising our lovely daughter.

First a few things about our family.

I met Tamara, Jade's mother while in the U.S. Navy where I served as a Seabee (engineer). We married and had three children, two daughters and a son, before Jade was born just over 20 years ago. At the time we thought we had another son. It would not be long before we started being corrected by Jade herself.

As soon as she was walking she had a sort of, i don't know what else to call it, gentleness i guess would be the word, that you associate with girl toddlers. And as she grew and began to talk we soon heard her tell us. She always was going through my older daughter's old dolls and later would play dress up. All of us just thought it was a phase and that as she got older she would begin to prefer more boyish activities.

As Jade has told you, wasn't always easy. It took us a while before we understood fully the pain she felt as we tried our best to raise her as a boy. Accepting that what we did was causing her more distress, depression was very difficult for both of us. But that was just the beginning. Following the recommendation of the psychologists and doctor to allow her to start living as a girl was probably the hardest thing a parent has to do next to burying their child. In a way we did bury something. It was out ideas and dreams of who she would grow up to be. As a dad I very much was looking forward to raising another son. But sometimes nature does not go as intended and in such rare instances, a family has to seek out the professional help necessary for their child to live a happy life.

As I read her retelling of when I took her to have her hair cut, which had grown quite long before she attended school I had to stop and recompose myself because I had no idea how painful that experience was for her. I was very stupid, dare I say ignorant about gender issues. I certainly did NOT think that kids could be transgender then. So I did what a lot of fathers would do. I tried to encourage her to like sports and bought her some of the best cars and trucks around to replace the doll house and dolls which her mother threw out causing Jade to cry. I tried shame her, I also didn't realize how this would affect her. And as she said, I got angry every time she would sit down to urinate. I once got so angry after seeing her wearing one of her sisters old dresses that i took a strap to her. Something that will haunt me for the rest of my life because after that, she hated me. She hated us.

It was only once she could start being herself, something which Tamara and I reluctantly allowed, that she began to come out of her shell and open up to talking with us again.

I am going to turn this over to Tamara now.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Hi. I'm Tamara, Jade's mother.

I read what Brian told you and I want to say I think of the two of us he handled things better than I did during what I can only call "the dark years".

You know, we all form dreams. Our dreams for Jade started as soon as I saw the ultrasound and the doctor proclaiming that I would be having another son. That's when we start buying stuff in either pink or blue and start preparing for having either a son or daughter. I had two daughters and a son already and now we'd have the perfect family with two of each.

I was delighted!

But, I guess maybe I should have known better. When I was pregnant with Jade it was different than when I was pregnant with her older brother. You know how they say baby boys kick more? Well Jade was as tranquil as my two daughters were. Maybe that should have been a sign? But anyway I did not know what was to come once she was born.

After I had her I was very happy, we all were. She was born healthy and bright eyed with the cutest smile. She was always very communicative and began walking and talking fairly early compared to my other children and certainly much earlier than her brother. Her sisters and brother took great care of her. She was very playful and we didn't think much of her gravitating towards daughters old toys and clothes. All kids go through phases. But i'll never forget her running into the living room wearing a blanket as a dress and telling us that she was a girl. We nervously laughed and tried to forget that but she would continue insisting that she was not a boy no matter what we did.

As hard as my husband was on her I was probably worse. Brian didn't tell you this but I come from a very religious black family from Louisiana. This just wasn't n our experience so imagine me having to deal with relatives thinking we weren't doing our job as parents. It seemed like every time they or Brian's family would come over Jade would get into something else girly. And this inevitably would lead to accusations on my side of the family that either I or Brian were too soft on her.

So things came to a head around the time she was 4 or 5. I threw out all the girls old toys and took the clothes to Goodwill.

And I prayed to God that things would be ok. After all God doesn't make mistakes, or at least that is what I was taught. Little did I know, little Jade was praying every night for something else. She told me some years later she would prey that she would wake up the next morning as a normal girl like her sisters.

My family seemed to think more church going would be the solution. After all, I moved from NoLa to "Secular Seattle" and despite both Brian and I being conservative, traditional family type people, having come from those roots, somehow my family felt that we needed to get closer to God. So i took Jade and enrolled her in a Sunday school and Bible study.

That wouldn't last long as during the first week Jade questioned the teacher when she asked how God could be perfect and we be made in God's image if God made some girls have to live as boys because that's what everyone said they were. The teacher asked Jade where she got that from and she told her that she was girl but because of how God made her everyone thought she was a boy.

I was sent a note sternly telling me that Jade was no longer welcome there. this caused me to question my own ideas and faith.

So as hard as Brian was on her, I was probably worse.

Her father, before the psychologist even recommended it asked me one night as we laid in bed unable to sleep, if we should just let Jade play with what she wanted, wear what she wanted, and be happy at least at home. It was bad enough that she was being teased in kindergarten. He asked me if I thought we should maybe just accept her and see if maybe by doing that she might grow out of it. I said HELL NO, No SON of mine is going to prance around the house in dresses!! I think Jade might have actually heard me because just as she had stopped talking with her dad, it was hard to talk with her the next day and for weeks following. She truly hated us.

But what was I supposed to do right? I mean it's hard enough being a minority and her being of mixed ethnicity would already give some people a reason to discriminate against her. The idea that she might grow up to be a gay man or transsexual just broke my heart. I wanted to PROTECT her but everything I did which I thought was protecting her was making her more withdrawn, sadder and more depressed.

As she told you, one day when I told her that she was a boy and she just had to learn to like that she was she was about 6 i guess… well she turns to me and angrily said, "If I am a boy then I wish I had never been born! I wish you never had me!"

Not long after this, the psychologist told us that after assessing her and our situation for close to two years, that the best solution was the one i feared the most.

And so, in 2002, just when school let out for the summer, we sat down with Jade, now age 7 and explained what the doctor told us and said that we were sorry we treated her the way we did but that now if she wanted to, she could play with whatever she wanted and dress however she wanted at home. Her face seemed to just brighten up. I mean the normally sad, sullen face we had come to know just transformed. She got a really big smile and her eyes got bright, both things which I had not seen in years.

She then nervously asked if that meant that her dad would never take her to have her hair cut again. I just nodded and then she even more nervously asked if that meant she could have the Barbie stuff she had wanted for Christmas. I had tears and just nodded. And then she asked if that meant that she could dress like the girls at her school. And now I'm crying a lot. And I said, to her that she could and that I and her father and her sisters and brother love her no matter what, and that we just want her to be happy. My other daughters and my son began to treat her as their little sister and one day she asked me, what I would have named her had she been born like her sisters and I told her Jade after the lovely gemstone. She just smiled and said, "i like jade".

Well, it's getting late here but that's how it was before and up to when we made the decision to allow her to be herself.

And look how she's turned out! She's beautiful and so smart, with the world wide open for her, we're all so proud of her. I plan to write more tomorrow about the years from 7-12 which while better, were still a huge challenge for us as we had to not only educate ourselves but other family members, other people, school administrators, other parents. It was sometimes exhausting, though Jade was becoming progressively happier and better adjusted which made it all worth it.

If you want we are happy to answer any questions which you might have. Leave them here and we will answer them tomorrow. I gotta get up early tomorrow.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

Im fine with homosexuals getting married. Like I said, America is not a theocracy, but marriage should not be in the hands of the government, but in the hands of religious instutions. Let them make the choice.

That way, homosexuals can get married and us fundies dont have to bake your cakes.

How does marriage equate to denying goods and services?

And one more thing, where, just WHERE in the bible does it say Though shalt not bake cakes or give goods or services to homosexuals?

It Doesn't.

In fact here is what Mr JC himself says to do. If you do not listen to his words and heed his advice to treat even your enemies well, then you are not following Christ.

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 ]b]Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

39 He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Enough said.

www.biblegateway.com...

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest

Im fine with homosexuals getting married. Like I said, America is not a theocracy, but marriage should not be in the hands of the government, but in the hands of religious instutions. Let them make the choice.

That way, homosexuals can get married and us fundies dont have to bake your cakes.

How does marriage equate to denying goods and services?

And one more thing, where, just WHERE in the bible does it say Though shalt not bake cakes or give and goods or services to homosexuals?

It Doesn't.

In fact here is what Mr JC himself says to do. If you do not listen to his words and heed his advice to treat even y our enemies well, then you are not following Christ.

27 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 ]b]Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

Judging Others
37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

39 He also told them this parable: “Can the blind lead the blind? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.

41 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 42 How can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when you yourself fail to see the plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

Enough said.

www.biblegateway.com...

Well said.

...and the fundies might wanna remember this beautiful one...one of my favorites...

John 13:34-35

I'm out too...some people have some serious introspection to do regarding what they actually believe...

Å99

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Is a grocery store required to have to provide foods that may be part of a Homosexual wedding too, if the store owner, or manager is Christian? What about a party thrown by a homosexual couple?

Is an ambulance allowed to reject Homosexual couples who may be injured on the way to their wedding, if the ambulance driver is a Christian?

a reply to: Ghost147

A grocery store manager reserves the right to refuse service. If his right is challenged, it should be up held in the court based on the Bill of Rights.

Refusing medical services in a life or death situation is potentially man slaughter. That is a different situation altogether. The individual is free to discriminate under the Bill of Rights as long as it does not result in physical harm, slander or libel. Any form of legislation that attempts alienate these rights are illegitimate.

Discrimination (however immoral as it may be) is protected under freedom of speech, and no individual is entitled to goods or services from the private sector.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: Ghost147

A grocery store manager reserves the right to refuse service. If his right is challenged, it should be up held in the court based on the Bill of Rights.

Refusing medical services in a life or death situation is potentially man slaughter. That is a different situation altogether. The individual is free to discriminate under the Bill of Rights as long as it does not result in physical harm, slander or libel. Any form of legislation that attempts alienate these rights are illegitimate.

Discrimination (however immoral as it may be) is protected under freedom of speech, and no individual is entitled to goods or services from the private sector.

And if those same individuals where to stop service to anyone who is Black, that is also acceptable?

a reply to: Ghost147

Morally no, but there's no legitimate legal action that can be done to prevent it.

Probably already been said.
But I sure didn't see any examples of Mutual consent amongst the cannibalistic lions, and the rapist seals, etc...

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Discrimination is not protected, i don't know how you don't understand that.

Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity are the only non Federally Protected classes, but some States have Anti-Discrimination Laws in place that include Sexual Orientation and Some that have Gender Identity

www.legalzoom.com...

So, no matter where you live, you cannot deny service to someone because of his or her race, color, religion, national origin or disability. In some states and cities, you also cannot discriminate against people because of their sexual orientation. If there is no state, federal or local law prohibiting discrimination in public accommodations against a particular group of people, then you can legally refuse to serve that group of people.

Others:

www.aclu.org...

www.insidetucsonbusiness.com... l

a reply to: Darth_Prime

Look, you can either have a legal codex based on morality or liberty. They cannot coexist as one codex. In America, the Bill of Rights guarantees equal liberties to all citizens. That includes discrimination. Any laws passed to protect against discrimination are unconstitutional and therefore illegal. The baker was within his rights.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

No he wasn't.. you don't understand and that is Ok, you are letting blind ignorance get in your way of not only Logic but truth, he broke the State Law, Discrimination is Illegal and Religion does not Protect people to Discriminate, you can follow your Gods Law all you want, but that is not above the Law and that doesn't control other people.

again, i'm sorry you can't understand theses things, but it's Ok