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Where are the aliens?

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posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 05:14 PM
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It's not a case of where is everyone, it's a case of simple math.

We're in the outer edges of the galaxy, on a spiral arm, nowhere near the action of the main cluster of stars.

It's not "where are they", it's "if the galaxy is teaming with life, why would they bother to visit an insignificant planet that's not even gotten out of our own Solar System yet?"

When we look at remote areas of Earth, it's extremely rare that anyone ever bothers to go there to see what's there, even if surveys etc show something interesting.

Now, multiply a few thousand miles to a few million or billion, and decrease the significance of what you'll find by a factor of a few zeroes, and see if you'd travel to some insignificant rock in space to see what's there.

Assuming Aliens would want to check us out is just a result of typical human arrogance and ego.




posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 05:29 PM
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originally posted by: babybunnies
It's not a case of where is everyone, it's a case of simple math.

We're in the outer edges of the galaxy, on a spiral arm, nowhere near the action of the main cluster of stars.


Why does everyone say this, as if the core were some sort of holy paradise where civilizations thrive?

The core is a death zone. Supermassive black hole, elder stars blowing up, x-rays and gamma rays galore, tidal effects of extreme gravity. Going to the core without appropriate precautions is a death sentence. You'll most certainly be killed by something. No life can reliably develop in the core.

Furthermore, we are not on the rim. We are actually positioned to being halfway between the rim and the core. The rim itself is believed to have too few metals for a civilization like ours to arise. They'll be stuck with sticks and stone tools if any life manages to develop there at all, although planet formation is probably unlikely.

The Orion Spur is actually in an ideal place in the galaxy, a so-called "galactic habitable zone." We're in just the right spot. Nevertheless, you are likely correct in speculating that there's nothing special about our civilization; not advanced enough to join the galactic community. We haven't even mastered all of the energy our planet can produce yet and we're still using fossil fuels.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 06:31 PM
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originally posted by: babybunnies
It's not a case of where is everyone, it's a case of simple math.

We're in the outer edges of the galaxy, on a spiral arm, nowhere near the action of the main cluster of stars.

It's not "where are they", it's "if the galaxy is teaming with life, why would they bother to visit an insignificant planet that's not even gotten out of our own Solar System yet?"

When we look at remote areas of Earth, it's extremely rare that anyone ever bothers to go there to see what's there, even if surveys etc show something interesting.

Now, multiply a few thousand miles to a few million or billion, and decrease the significance of what you'll find by a factor of a few zeroes, and see if you'd travel to some insignificant rock in space to see what's there.

Assuming Aliens would want to check us out is just a result of typical human arrogance and ego.

I've held this same position for years.

The Fermi Paradox is to my mind invalid, since it assumes not only the inevitability of extrasolar missions (of aliens,) AND the wherewithal (and desire) of these aliens to do so, but also some kind of impetus that causes them to come within our area of detailed viewing.

Harte



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 06:47 PM
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originally posted by: babybunnies
We're in the outer edges of the galaxy, on a spiral arm, nowhere near the action of the main cluster of stars.

That main cluster of stars at the center of our galaxy is bathed continuously in high-energy radiation. Probably not a lot of life going on there.



posted on Jul, 22 2015 @ 06:56 PM
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originally posted by: Harte
The Fermi Paradox is to my mind invalid, since it assumes not only the inevitability of extrasolar missions (of aliens,) AND the wherewithal (and desire) of these aliens to do so, but also some kind of impetus that causes them to come within our area of detailed viewing.

I always thought of the Fermi Paradox as playing the averages. Yeah, there may be some alien civilizations out there -- maybe even most of them -- that reach a very high level of technological development and then just decide to stay home and raise their equivalent of sheep. But certainly not all of them. Just like with the Prime Directive. Sure, some of them would decide not to mess with developing civilizations. But not all of them. I see it as allowing for a whole range of motivations.

And if you have even a small number of advanced civilizations -- likely driven by massively intelligent machines -- with the desire to move off their planet in search of usable resources (or God, or whatever), then it wouldn't take them long even at sub-light speeds to infect most of the galaxy such that their presence would be obvious. Shapes and warps in the night sky that are obviously artifacts.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 06:07 AM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Harte
The Fermi Paradox is to my mind invalid, since it assumes not only the inevitability of extrasolar missions (of aliens,) AND the wherewithal (and desire) of these aliens to do so, but also some kind of impetus that causes them to come within our area of detailed viewing.

I always thought of the Fermi Paradox as playing the averages. Yeah, there may be some alien civilizations out there -- maybe even most of them -- that reach a very high level of technological development and then just decide to stay home and raise their equivalent of sheep. But certainly not all of them. Just like with the Prime Directive. Sure, some of them would decide not to mess with developing civilizations. But not all of them. I see it as allowing for a whole range of motivations.

And if you have even a small number of advanced civilizations -- likely driven by massively intelligent machines -- with the desire to move off their planet in search of usable resources (or God, or whatever), then it wouldn't take them long even at sub-light speeds to infect most of the galaxy such that their presence would be obvious. Shapes and warps in the night sky that are obviously artifacts.

What "shapes and warps" are you talking about here?

Harte



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 08:46 AM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Harte
The Fermi Paradox is to my mind invalid, since it assumes not only the inevitability of extrasolar missions (of aliens,) AND the wherewithal (and desire) of these aliens to do so, but also some kind of impetus that causes them to come within our area of detailed viewing.

I always thought of the Fermi Paradox as playing the averages. Yeah, there may be some alien civilizations out there -- maybe even most of them -- that reach a very high level of technological development and then just decide to stay home and raise their equivalent of sheep. But certainly not all of them. Just like with the Prime Directive. Sure, some of them would decide not to mess with developing civilizations. But not all of them. I see it as allowing for a whole range of motivations.

And if you have even a small number of advanced civilizations -- likely driven by massively intelligent machines -- with the desire to move off their planet in search of usable resources (or God, or whatever), then it wouldn't take them long even at sub-light speeds to infect most of the galaxy such that their presence would be obvious. Shapes and warps in the night sky that are obviously artifacts.


This link fascinates me:

arstechnica.com...

If time dilation destroys quantum coherence (it apparently does), and IF
say quantum coherence is required for a reasonable FTL type drive,
navigation or other required enabling technology...

then perhaps the reason the galaxy/universe seems unpopulated is that it's
too much of a PITA, even for automated probes or machine intelligence
to do it at all.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 05:25 PM
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a reply to: Harte

He probably means some kind of gravitational lensing, which can be caused by anything with enough mass really. Searching for needles in a haystack, honestly.
edit on 7/23/2015 by Kojiro because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 05:56 PM
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originally posted by: Harte
What "shapes and warps" are you talking about here?

Harte


Shapes and warps like this:

arxiv.org...

I suppose the idea is that if a civilization is advanced enough they might use wormholes for transportation. In which case there is a theorized "signature" for that wormhole that is different from other micro lensing events (unidentifiable background stars).

Micro lensing events do not need to be a "needle in a haystack" kind of search. For instance; my robot will be compiling data on all objects in its field of view, not just "target" stars. with this additional data, "off-line" exoplanet searches can be conducted. The whole point is that data already exists, and more is forthcoming that only needs to be analyzed to find these "signatures", and all of that can be done with computers and little human interaction. The tasks only need to be started.

One might ask that there be a whole lot less crying about it, and much more doing...



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 06:18 PM
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originally posted by: Harte
What "shapes and warps" are you talking about here?

I'm talking about entire swaths of stars repositioned in patterns to maximize energy output and recovery, or flashing in patterns like lighthouses in space, and visual displacements and ripples in the sky as their huge interstellar machines bend and twist spacetime to their own ends. Stuff like that. Engineering on a galactic scale.

But then again, as discussed in the AI topic, maybe once a galactic superintelligence emerges, everything gets rendered into virtuality so all that's left is a kind of "ordered chaos" of artificial imagination that pretends to be reality.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 06:23 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
Searching for needles in a haystack, honestly.

In a couple billion years, maybe all the haystacks start turning into needle stacks.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 06:45 PM
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originally posted by: Blue Shift

originally posted by: Harte
What "shapes and warps" are you talking about here?

I'm talking about entire swaths of stars repositioned in patterns to maximize energy output and recovery, or flashing in patterns like lighthouses in space, and visual displacements and ripples in the sky as their huge interstellar machines bend and twist spacetime to their own ends. Stuff like that. Engineering on a galactic scale.

But then again, as discussed in the AI topic, maybe once a galactic superintelligence emerges, everything gets rendered into virtuality so all that's left is a kind of "ordered chaos" of artificial imagination that pretends to be reality.

You don't need to be able to re-arrange stars just to travel from star to star.

The Fermi Paradox isn't about galactic engineering.

Harte



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:26 PM
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Did we come back to the 40s or something? I mean, I love you guys conjecturing about aliens and how could they be, act, live, and so on. But the aliens are already here, they're being flying around and even abducting humans at least since the 50s and the US government, for instance, is pretty aware of such events.

My advice, take note of what the abductees relate, and listen to the field researchers of such experiences.



posted on Jul, 23 2015 @ 10:39 PM
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a reply to: JackHill

There's no reliable evidence that such events are caused by aliens.



posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 01:12 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JackHill

There's no reliable evidence that such events are caused by aliens.


Uhm, yeah, there are plenty. You're uninformed or just trolling. Their description won't match human physiology. By definition, they're 'alien' in nature.



posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 02:11 PM
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a reply to: JackHill

Actually I've read quite a bit on the subject. An entire section of my personal library is dedicated to alien abductions and UFOs. But I have come to the conclusion that these are ultimately not caused by the actions of extraterrestrials as the "aliens" are not alien enough. I have my own theories of what the phenomenon is and they involve a far more local intelligence.

If you're familiar with any UFO lore at all, you might grasp what alternative theories I'm considering.



posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 02:33 PM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JackHill

Actually I've read quite a bit on the subject. An entire section of my personal library is dedicated to alien abductions and UFOs. But I have come to the conclusion that these are ultimately not caused by the actions of extraterrestrials as the "aliens" are not alien enough. I have my own theories of what the phenomenon is and they involve a far more local intelligence.

If you're familiar with any UFO lore at all, you might grasp what alternative theories I'm considering.


Timeframes are inconsistent with the 'government-CIA-black ops' involvement. There are people that suffered abduction experiences as far as the 50s. Technology available then, and several decades later, isn't sufficient to replicate such events. The description made of the tripulants won't match human physiology. I don't see what other 'theories' could fit.

When I say 'aliens', I mean, that they don't belong to our society, clearly. They could live underground, or come from a distant galaxy, or another 'dimension', or whatever. Their origin is a mistery.



posted on Jul, 24 2015 @ 03:08 PM
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a reply to: JackHill

Time travelers, ultraterrestrials, cryptoterrestrials, some Carl Jungian mass consciousness thing. There's a plethora of alternate ideas to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. You're just not thinking outside of the box.



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 08:44 AM
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Considering all the UFO sightings, the aliens surely are out there and if you choose to believe a few select and credible observers, we are communicating with them also.



posted on Jul, 27 2015 @ 10:29 AM
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originally posted by: Kojiro
a reply to: JackHill

Time travelers, ultraterrestrials, cryptoterrestrials, some Carl Jungian mass consciousness thing. There's a plethora of alternate ideas to the extraterrestrial hypothesis. You're just not thinking outside of the box.


I am, I just told you, there's no way to know from where they're coming from, but ignoring the facts, and specially the patterns, is simply insane. What do we know:

- Aliens are mostly described as short, skinny, withish-grey skin; long, big head; big eyes, usually black.
- Aliens are capable of mind-to-mind communication, can easily immobilize abductees and people around them, erase the conscious memory of the events, perform medical tests on the subject, extract genetic material, impregnate women and months later remove the fetus, time later the abductees are presented with 'hybrid' beings.
- Many of the abductions are clearly physical in nature, marks in the land surrounding the 'landing', skin marks and brushes that later fit a memory of the event, multiple victims, even when driving/walking, missing time that cannot being explained, pretty suspicious miscarriages.
- Spacechips are silent, as big as a house, sometimes just a 'hum' sound generally associated to them, generally presenting round angles/forms, with inexplainable interior illumination (as if the air was illuminated from within).
- Such events had been happening at least since the 1950's.



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