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Why is same-sex marriage wrong?

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posted on Jul, 10 2015 @ 11:20 PM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: akushla99

Problem is though correcting androgens is not eugenics.
If one has a chemical imbalance and the levels are corrected that has nothing to do with genetics.

You are making a false accusation based on incorrect analysts.

The whole idea is based on the fact that homosexuality is not genetic. Being born dark skined is much different from being born with jaundice.

For your assertion to be correct you must show that it is genetic.


Splitting hairs much?

Homosexuality (because you say it is not genetic) cannot therefore be passed genetically and does not pose a medical problem that impacts to 'infect, disease or defect' any other DNA strand with the homosexual 'defect'.

In order for a study to determine the 'effectiveness' that supposedly corrects a 'defect' that produces NO medical benefit before, or after birth, rendering homosexuals completely indistinguishable from heterosexuals...is correcting...what, and why exactly?...

The argument to alter anything before birth on the assumtion that a 'defect' be corrected (peer-reviewed whatever) would need to provide a reason to prioritise its use 'medically'...so, if you can think of any reason why 'medically' alt.sex would, from within the womb, or post natal (at least until the issue is resolved within their own mind) care to give that decision over (in absentia) to a 3rd party - short of actual 'defects' that do medically impact on society, or themselves - the argument revolves around whether you, or anyone who has an unborn child to which they would administer the 'correction'...indeed, by that line of argument, altering genes, or hormones, or whatever combination of known or unknown agents to 'cure' plain old stupidity should be being researched on a massive scale...sadly, the focus isn't really on whether/and how stupidity impacts on society...

Å99




posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 05:13 PM
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a reply to: akushla99

What you are saying is that there is not such thing as a congenital disorder and that simply is not true. You are purposely misinterpreting data to fit your ideology and make false assertions.

While congenital disorders can be genetic, homosexuality is shown to be caused by unbalanced androgens in gestation. These androgens cause overexposure or underexposure that makes epi-markers go array thus causing disorders. Various degrees of over or under exposure cause all kinds of disfunctions from homosexuality to ambiguous genitalia.

The reason for treatment being that the leveling out of androgens is healthier for both parent and child.



posted on Jul, 11 2015 @ 06:59 PM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: akushla99

What you are saying is that there is not such thing as a congenital disorder and that simply is not true. You are purposely misinterpreting data to fit your ideology and make false assertions.

While congenital disorders can be genetic, homosexuality is shown to be caused by unbalanced androgens in gestation. These androgens cause overexposure or underexposure that makes epi-markers go array thus causing disorders. Various degrees of over or under exposure cause all kinds of disfunctions from homosexuality to ambiguous genitalia.

The reason for treatment being that the leveling out of androgens is healthier for both parent and child.


You'd do well to not put words in my mouth to suit your purposes.

'Healthier'...'How is a potential homosexual made 'healthier'? Does manipulating androgens render homosexuals immune from any diseases before or after birth? Does manipulating androgens render the parents of an androgen-manipulated child immune from any diseases before or after birth?

What specific medical 'problem' does it address? Does it cure jaundice or 'post-peer-reviewed' Thalidomide effect?

Å99



posted on Jul, 12 2015 @ 10:21 PM
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a reply to: akushla99

Here is a good start to understanding the various disorders the correction of parental androgens can prevent.

m.pediatrics.aappublications.org...

I think you misunderstand the peer review process. Ironically it is what prevented the thalidomide "effect" in europe from happening in the US.

Interestingly enough the thing that will most likely prevent homosexuality will also prevent pedophilia.

Here is a link to a peer reviewed study abouth others effects:
books.google.com... mbVY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FTCjVZ3IGsKu-AHkkIPYCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=androgens%20effects%20on%20parent&f=false

m.cancer.org... .
edit on 12-7-2015 by alphastrike101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 05:38 AM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101

Interestingly enough the thing that will most likely prevent homosexuality will also prevent pedophilia.



Now you are just plain lying.

There is no link between homosexuality and pedophilia.


The distinction between a victim's gender and a perpetrator's sexual orientation is important because many child molesters don't really have an adult sexual orientation. They have never developed the capacity for mature sexual relationships with other adults, either men or women. Instead, their sexual attractions focus on children – boys, girls, or children of both sexes.


psychology.ucdavis.edu...

As for your befuddled theory on Androgens and homosexuality, a law change is all that is needed to keep hateful bigots at bay. Homosexuality is not a condition that causes harm to the individual and there could be easily be a case raised on the freedom and rights of the foetus to be born without interference when there is not a harmful disorder with it



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 07:41 AM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: akushla99

Here is a good start to understanding the various disorders the correction of parental androgens can prevent.

m.pediatrics.aappublications.org...


Not really...this is a good start to understanding your misrepresentation of other peoples work to fit in nicely with your "I can fix the gay out of all future babies by addressing the amount of testosterone a fetus is exposed to but I won't acknowledge the eugenic implications of a century ago" program. Your first link isn't quite what you are attempting to paint it as. Dr. Lee works primarily in Endocrinology and in your citation says-

Advances in identification of molecular genetic causes of abnormal sex with heightened awareness of ethical issues and patient advocacy concerns necessitate a reexamination of nomenclature


Genetic causes combined with a heightened awareness of both ethical and patient advocacy concerns necessitate looking at the nomenclature used in describing these conditions. There's nothing there regarding epigenetic causes let alone androgen therapy in utero.


I think you misunderstand the peer review process. Ironically it is what prevented the thalidomide "effect" in europe from happening in the US.

Perhaps you should address that concern into your mirror? What specifically do you think is being misunderstood regarding the Peer Review Process? Just because a paper is published does not mean it has been peer reviewed. Do you understand the distinction? Data can not be peer reviewed unless it has been published. So, just because something has been published, whether an article or full paper, that doesn't mean it has been, nor that you can refer to it as, peer reviewed.

Because the them is irony, it was Frances Oldham Kelsey at the FDA demanding additional data and proper clinical trials prior to clearing Thalidomide for use in the U.S. That's not the same as a dissenting peer review or published article demonstrating the errors in the original work. It's someone properly calling for the appropriate amount of due diligence which was shirked by the drugs manufacturer.

Interestingly enough the thing that will most likely prevent homosexuality will also prevent pedophilia.

And your citation for that bold and saucy statement would be where? Your just pulling stuff out of your @## with this one if you can't cite data supporting the statement minus qualifiers such as "I believe" or "in my personal opinion".

Here is a link to a peer reviewed study abouth others effects:
books.google.com... mbVY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FTCjVZ3IGsKu-AHkkIPYCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=androgens%20effects%20on%20parent&f=false

Again, the citation doesn't actually support the message you're trying to send. In the paragraph regarding CAH, it says quite explicitly that CAH is the result of a

single gene defect in an enzyme that controls cortisol production


It's not going to be affected by your in utero androgen therapy if its a genetic defect now is it?

It further goes on to say( specifically referencing genetic females)

If prenatal androgens affect human sex typed behavior, then females with CAH should be behaviorally more masculine and less feminine than a comparison group of females without CAH. And they are in many but not all ways.


It further goes on to discuss CAIS which is a rare genetic condition in which androgen receptors are defective and incapable of recognizing or responding to testosterone. About this condition they state that-

If human behavior is affected by early androgens, then individuals with CAIS should be female typical because they do not have functioning receptors to respond to the high(normal male) levels present. It is important to note, however, that other influences on behavior are confounded with androgens in CAIS. Effects of genes on the Y chromosome could produce male-typical behavior, and social rearing as a female could produce female-typical behavior.


As I read through, the same theme keep[s reoccurring... that the importance of the home/social environment plays a larger role than developmental androgen exposure. Are you actually reading through your citations and misunderstanding them because you're dead set on curing the world of gayness or are you just googling sources and posting them willy nilly?


m.cancer.org... .


How exactly does prostate cancer in adult Males apply to your hypothetical whimsies regarding androgen therapy to save the world from the gay plague? Your eugenics program is suffering from some rather severe confirmation biases based on your citations. This goes back to the very first pair of citations you gave early on in the thread. The first one is an interesting look at comparative MRI and PET scans of brains but has absolutely nothing to do with what you're raving about regarding androgen exposure. Nothing at all. The second one is self contradictory at points as it shows genetic markers and then attempts to portray some of these genetic markers as epigenetic and further compounding the issue by trying to claim that genetics and epigenetics have nothing to do with one another(and that's not even getting into the shaky ground of hypotheticals as epigenetics are concerned but that's an entirely separate thread in and of itself). The paper begins with a simple premise...

From an evolutionary standpoint, homosexuality is a trait that would not be expected to develop and persist in the face of Darwinian natural selection
. I can see from reading through this particular paper, that it is the basis for your entire argument for playing god and screwing with the natural state of people. You see this as a defect to be corrected whereas I see your entire premise as vulgar and bigoted. The entire premise is based solely on a mathematical model with no real world testing because it is entirely unethical to test something like this on humans. Nobody knows what kind of damage could be wrought by attempting the "therapy" you seem to believe is the answer to everyone's hopes, dreams and prayers...a cure for the gay plague rotting the core of the Earth away. If only you could step out of your head and see the words you're spewing through the eyes of the other posters in this thread because whether you want to buy it or not, you are in fact promoting some Mengele level eugenics program that's on par with the forced sterilizations of "undesirables" that was still occurring in America until less than 50 years ago.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 08:47 AM
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posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 08:50 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369

Yeah hit and run threads also....
Doesn't even defend his thoughts nothing more than trying to get more hits on you tube.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 08:52 AM
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a reply to: Prezbo369jeered and mocked? dont allow yourself to be reduced to such lowly behavior. you are better than that.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 10:20 AM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: akushla99

Here is a good start to understanding the various disorders the correction of parental androgens can prevent.

m.pediatrics.aappublications.org...

I think you misunderstand the peer review process. Ironically it is what prevented the thalidomide "effect" in europe from happening in the US.

Interestingly enough the thing that will most likely prevent homosexuality will also prevent pedophilia.

Here is a link to a peer reviewed study abouth others effects:
books.google.com... mbVY&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FTCjVZ3IGsKu-AHkkIPYCg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=androgens%20effects%20on%20parent&f=false

m.cancer.org... .


If you dont understand history (and learn from it) at some point, you're doomed to repeat it...

Å99



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: markosity1973

You missed the whole point.
I am not a all saying that homosexuals are pedophiles or that either is a mental illness.

The point is that pedophilia is its own sexual orientation, just like homosexuality is its own orientation

This should clear up that understanding a bit more.

www.cnn.com...
www.m.webmd.com...
edit on 13-7-2015 by alphastrike101 because: Fix links



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar

The point is that they are not pumping the fetus with any testosterone. The parent is given androgens that simply level out the amounts they currently have.
It is unethical to just inject a fetus chemicals and that is not what anyone is proposing.
Just like taking high doses of folate when pregnant greatly reduces the dysfunction from occurring that causes spina bifida.
This article only highlights the "disorders of sex development."


enzyme that controls cortisol production

Here is proof of concept:
www.researchgate.net... ion_of_Degree_of_Prenatal_Androgen_Excess
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Once more the goals was not to prevent homosexuality. The prevention of homosexuality was a by product of preventing others disorders such as ambiguous genitalia, cancer, ect. Subsequently when preventing unrelated disorders homosexuality was also prevented. the whole point is that when a parent is at healthy levels of androgens homosexuality and others sexual disorders does not occur. The point of the MRI scans is to highlight the facts that there is a disorders occuring. If you want I can provide studies of pedophiles MRI results showing that like homosexuals, pedophiles also have a brain structure that is at a dysfunctional cross purpose. Like homosexuals pedophiles are born that way. If you supported research that will likely prevent pedophilia disorder you by default will prevent others sexual disorders.

On the topic of pedophilia, it is just another sexual disorders. Like homosexuals pedophiles are born with a pre disposed sexual orientation.

Please supported your mengele claim and show where I or any of my sources is proposing sterilization. The whole point is to prevent disorders form occuring due to parental androgens levels.
edit on 13-7-2015 by alphastrike101 because: Fix links



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 04:27 PM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: markosity1973

You missed the whole point.
I am not a all saying that homosexuals are pedophiles or that either is a mental illness.

The point is that pedophilia is its own sexual orientation, just like homosexuality is its own orientation

This should clear up that understanding a bit more.

www.cnn.com...
www.m.webmd.com...


No, what you are trying to assert the entire way though this thread is that sexuality is determined in the womb as the foetus is formed and that androgens are the cause (still not convinced by any evidence you have posted yet BTW) and therefore sexuality should be 'corrected'.

I disagree. I believe a non harmful condition such as sexuality should be left alone - the foetus is a human. And as humans we have a right to no be experimented on or changed against our will.

Secondly, there is strong evidence with conditions such as pedophilia that it is NOT congenital. The naughty catholic priests of this world are an excellent group to look at in regards to this area of sexuality. Why is it that one group of people is vastly, and I mean ridiculously so over represented with pedophiles? Most of these men became priests because of family tradition i,e, when you have a large family, one son was sent into service for the Lord. The selection process into priesthood was indiscriminate on sexuality (they're supposed to be celibate) and therefore there should be no more and no less pedophiles per % of population than anywhere else. But we all know that is not true.

Therefore one can come to the reasonable assumption that their sexuality is actually situational and based upon ease of access.

I am going to stop typing now, because this argument is severely creeping me out, but you get what I mean I hope.
edit on 13-7-2015 by markosity1973 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 05:01 PM
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So can we finally come to the conclusion that Nothing is wrong with Marriage Equality



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 05:41 PM
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originally posted by: Darth_Prime
So can we finally come to the conclusion that Nothing is wrong with Marriage Equality


Why yes we can...because no-one has been able to supply a credible reason why it is wrong.

Å99



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 10:04 PM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101
a reply to: peter vlar

The point is that they are not pumping the fetus with any testosterone. The parent is given androgens that simply level out the amounts they currently have.
It is unethical to just inject a fetus chemicals and that is not what anyone is proposing.


And that's not what I said nor implied was the case.

Just like taking high doses of folate when pregnant greatly reduces the dysfunction from occurring that causes spina bifida.


So being gay is analogous to being born with your spine improperly developing? wow...

This article only highlights the "disorders of sex development."

There's a huge difference between disorder of sexual development and sexual attraction. They aren't even in the same realm of reality.

Here is proof of concept:
www.researchgate.net... ion_of_Degree_of_Prenatal_Androgen_Excess
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


These are abstracts which do not describe, once again, what you claim they are. Have you read the full papers or just the abstract? In case nobody bothered to let you in on the secret yet, CAH and homosexuality are not the same thing.


Once more the goals was not to prevent homosexuality. The prevention of homosexuality was a by product of preventing others disorders such as ambiguous genitalia, cancer, ect. Subsequently when preventing unrelated disorders homosexuality was also prevented.


Do you read your sources? Homosexuality has NOT been prevented, ever, not one single time. Show me where this has gone anywhere beyond a theoretical model or mathematical model. None of this has ever been attempted on a human or their fetus because it is 100% medically unethical and morally repugnant.


the whole point is that when a parent is at healthy levels of androgens homosexuality and others sexual disorders does not occur.


This is all hypothetical, there has not been a real world application of this hypothesis. Homosexuality is not a disorder, the only thing that I would say is a disorder would be that society at large would prefer to stigmatize people. It is this stigma that causes issues, not the sexual preferences of the individual. It's people like you who contribute to this societal disorder in a fit of unbridled arrogance which becomes even worse when you claim you're trying to "save them" from their life of cross purpose disorders or whatever insanity you rationalize it all away with.



The point of the MRI scans is to highlight the facts that there is a disorders occuring.


No, the point of the MRI's and PET scans was to test a hypothesis regarding similarities and differences in the brains of various people of varying gender and sexual orientation. There was no highlighting of any disorder nor were any of the subjects referred to as having a disorder. Homosexuality as a disorder is your bizarro world interpretation of the data.



If you want I can provide studies of pedophiles MRI results showing that like homosexuals, pedophiles also have a brain structure that is at a dysfunctional cross purpose. Like homosexuals pedophiles are born that way.


Show me a peer reviewed study demonstrating these assertions. The whole cross purpose brain structure mumbo jumbo is YOUR interpretation, not the interpretations of any of the authors you have cited. You're so narrow minded and blinded by confirmation bias that you latch on to anything that resembles what you want it to say while ignoring vast swaths of data that contradict everything you purport as reality. You have an entirely black and white POV when looking at the data you present and what I read not only frequently contradicts what you are attempting to say but also shows many varying shades of color and grey that you appear to be purposely ignoring.



If you supported research that will likely prevent pedophilia disorder you by default will prevent others sexual disorders.

Bull S# Homosexuality is NOT a sexual disorder and your continuous equating of pedophilia and homosexuality as similar disorders that can be "cured" by addressing testosterone in the parents is unfounded by any of your cited sources and, quite honestly, nauseating to me. It's mind blowing that you are so drastically misrepresenting the data you cite in order to rationalize your zealous insistence that homosexuality is a disorder and can be cured.

On the topic of pedophilia, it is just another sexual disorders. Like homosexuals pedophiles are born with a pre disposed sexual orientation.


And you're basing this on what research exactly? Do you actually have any evidence in favor of your nature over nurture position?


Please supported your mengele claim and show where I or any of my sources is proposing sterilization. The whole point is to prevent disorders form occuring due to parental androgens levels.


The whole point is that you're wrong, that I stand by the Mengele analogy and that you are misrepresenting research data to justify your personal crusade. I never said that you are calling for sterilization, I simply pointed out flaws in your logic and interpretation of data and gave an analogy regarding sterilization of "undesirables" in the U.S. until the late 60's You are referring to homosexuality as a disorder that can be cured, Mengele was also interested in this and slaughtered 1000's in his sickening scientific quest to figure out how to cure the undesirables and add to the Aryan stock. He, like you, thought he was doing them all a favor to save them from the anguishing life that lay ahead of them. At least Mengele was honest in what he was trying to do while he was trying to do it.



posted on Jul, 13 2015 @ 11:37 PM
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a reply to: peter vlar

Peter thanks for addressing this posters extreme ignorance with reason.I'm so appalled at the BS crap he is spewing I can't even bring myself to write a post(a first!).This is a why ATS is so important even though it is a small corner of the world.The ignorance of some people is so great it needs to be exposed no matter what.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:07 AM
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a reply to: peter vlar

Please show where you get the idea of forced sterilization from correcting erroneous androgens levels. I see once more you have no fact or sets of facts to supports this fallace assertion all you have is ideologues rabblerousing that is logically unconnected.

As far as chemicals in the womb causing spinal bifida, chemicals in the womb cause homosexuality. And the risks of such disorders can be prevented.

www.thehastingscenter.org...

Here is a link to an actually abstract take on one of the others peer revied studies that subsequently prevented homosexuality.

If homosexuality is not a sexual orientational disorders than neither is pedophile, CAH, ect.

When androgens are out of wack and you correctly them, any number of disorders can be prevented. When you try to prevent one such as pedophilia you will subsequently preventing all sexual orientational disorders.

Like when a doctor may not know exactly what infections one has they will issue antibiotics that will arbitrarily prevent most all infections.

I fail to see a single cited facts that disproves any of my peer reviewed data sets.

I also have this link that goes into detail and cites some of the same peer reviewed datsun sets I cited here.

webcache.googleusercontent.com...:www.abovetopsecret.com...
edit on 14-7-2015 by alphastrike101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:21 AM
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a reply to: markosity1973

Please presented any evidence you can that refutes me or the peer reviewed studies I cited with reguard to congenital disorders.

you bringing up priests is not a logically valid argument.

I am not saying that homosexuals are pedophiles but that theay are each a form of preventable sexual orientational disorders.

If you could prevent pedophiles why would not look into ways to do so?
Of course the most likely way to do that is level out androgens levels of all at risk of sexual orientational disorder fetuses subsequently preventing homosexuality and others as a by product.



posted on Jul, 14 2015 @ 01:49 AM
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originally posted by: alphastrike101

Please show where you get the idea of forced sterilization from correcting erroneous androgens levels. I see once more you have no fact or sets of facts to supports this fallace assertion all you have is ideologues rabblerousing that is logically unconnected.


I see once more that you need to get hooked on phonics because I was quite clear that I am not saying anything about forced sterilization. You're reading my replies as well as you are your source material. I don't need to provide citations or sets of facts to dispute the fact that you are wrong and aren't reading or at least not comprehending, the source material you cite. I am using your own citations for Christ's sake.


As far as chemicals in the womb causing spinal bifida, chemicals in the womb cause homosexuality. And the risks of such disorders can be prevented.


You continue to demonstrate that you are NOT reading the source material you are citing. There is not a definitive link to androgen levels and homosexuality, yet you continue to insist this is a proven fact. It's absolutely ludicrous. The studies by Maria New are all involving females with CAH yet you are making broad, sweeping generalizations about all homosexuals across the globe. The studies she has done are all very small and the best results she is obtaining is akin to grasping at straws.



Here is a link to an actually abstract take on one of the others peer revied studies that subsequently prevented homosexuality.


That is NOT what the article states. The article was written in 2010 regarding a paper published in 2008. How many 2 year old lesbians do you know? How do you reach this conclusion when Maria New isn't even using such concrete and conclusive language as you are?


"Most women were heterosexual, but the rates of bisexual and homosexual orientation were increased above controls . . . and correlated with the degree of prenatal androgenization.”


They go on to suggest that the work might offer some insight into the influence of prenatal hormones on the development of sexual orientation in general. “That this may apply also to sexual orientation in at least a subgroup of women is suggested by the fact that earlier research has repeatedly shown that about one-third of homosexual women have (modestly) increased levels of androgens.”

About one third... let that sink in... about 1/3 of women have MODESTLY increased levels of androgens. Read that 10 times before moving on please. There is nothing even remotely conclusive about that. At all.



If homosexuality is not a sexual orientational disorders than neither is pedophile, CAH, ect.


Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, not a disorder. Pedophilia is a reprehensible act against all of society. The fact that you continue to tie these two topics together makes me think you're woefully and willfully ignorant or a bridge dwelling Troll. Either way it's vile. And CAH... not a sexual orientation. I just don't know how you come to these conclusions.


When androgens are out of wack and you correctly them, any number of disorders can be prevented. When you try to prevent one such as pedophilia you will subsequently preventing all sexual orientational disorders.

Again, you are making sweeping generalized assumptions that are not demonstrated in your citations. Cite a specific passage that states this please.


Like when a doctor may not know exactly what infections one has they will issue antibiotics that will arbitrarily prevent most all infections.


Being gay is not an infection, you're F#( disgusting with this line of rhetoric.


I fail to see a single cited facts that disproves any of my peer reviewed data sets.


I fail to see anything in your citations that supports what you're trying to sell to the masses. I don't need to provide anything to refute your scientific illiteracy and shameful, ignorant bigotry. You're not providing peer reviewed data sets, you're providing published articles about select papers and an occasional abstract. Publishing a paper doesn't make it peer reviewed. You need to understand this.

I also have this link that goes into detail and cites some of the same peer reviewed datsun sets I cited here.



webcache.googleusercontent.com...:www.abovetopsecret.com...


One link is dead/404 and the other brings you to the ATS front page
edit on 14-7-2015 by peter vlar because: (no reason given)




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