Rediscovering my masculinity.

a reply to: halfoldman

I also want to say that gender disposition is irrelevant to who you are as an individual. It shouldn't define you as a person. You are as capable as anyone else to help others.

Male and female are two halves that make a whole, but, to be successful, you must have some qualities of both. To some extent, people are what they do. So, to be more masculine, do some guy stuff: have sex with a woman, go fishing, shoot a gun, work on a car. I'm not sure how masculine you can ever be after doing a bunch of gay sex, but you could be more masculine.
a reply to: halfoldman

a reply to: halfoldman

You Folks really crack me up!
HooHaa!
This has been going on for years,
so don't feel abnormal to be "normal".

Your gonna love this big kielbasa sausage link:

www.youtube.com...

HooHaa!

I mean, I just can't make this stuff up.
I don't need an imagination.
This is just ridiculous!

Ahh, the plot thickens as the details fill in...

So, you are a gay man wanting to be more macho and assuming that you suddenly don't want to start sleeping with women, have you considered leather?

a reply to: halfoldman

My neighbours, married, husband and husband, work on their Harleys all day drinking beer and playing Mötley Crüe. They also dance for Circe de sole, achieving physical feats you and I might only wish for. If you have testosterone you might as well use it.

Just to clarify on some posts - the thread is about masculinity, not changing sexual orientation or sexuality.

There's butch and more effeminate gay men, and straight men.
Even some male-to-female trans people identify as heterosexual (like Caitlyn Jenner).

Sexual relationships to me actually come with a lot of responsibility, and although I've identified more as bisexual recently, I can think about the way I carry myself, what I wear and so forth, but at my age I'm not just going to go out and sleep with people.

Whether the fact that a female was interested in me made a difference I don't know.
I'm more concerned with what the male peer-group thinks of me, and that I generally look and act like them.
Perhaps I'm just conforming.

Maybe because SA can be quite a crime-ridden, violent place I feel I'm responsible for the specifically women I'm with, and the more you put up a "don't mess with me front", the less likely you're going to be a target.
Perhaps after a while you become what you perform, or the gender performance becomes ingrained somehow?

When I mentioned being a radical gender activist I had the stereotype of the radical feminist or very camp person in mind.
But sure, one can be male and masculine, and still think about gender issues, and be a gender activist.
Just the issues are slightly different, and the community is smaller and less visible.
But more men are starting to think about gender issues (beyond straight and gay).
I wouldn't say one gender is better than the other though.

Whether my performance or butch identity actually works I don't know.
I might think I'm very macho, but everybody in the pub might think: "Oh here's that queen again".
My point was just that there's a lot of focus on people wanting to transition to the opposite gender. But being the same gender successfully doesn't always come without effort, even if people don't talk about it.
But hey, at least I'm enjoying the ride.
Perhaps it's also that I now feel free to be masculine, whereas in my youth it was kinda forced, and I saw it very much as associated with negative militaristic politics and small-mindedness.

a reply to: halfoldman

Truly a "change of life" experience, right?

Considering, I guess that is to be expect for some. For decades it has been said (and maybe proved as far as I know) that as a man reaches about 50 he finds his softer side, etc. So something similar in reverse could happen, couldn't it?

a reply to: EKron
Camo's the new leather.
I'm thinking Duck Dynasty minus the yucky Taliban beards.

a reply to: Aliensun
Perhaps so yes.
One of those creeping midlife experiences?
Perhaps from a deep-seated realization that if you're not going to do it now you never will.

a reply to: halfoldman

I think my confusion about this is that you are the one who may be mixing up sexuality with gender. You are an effeminate gay man (or bi, as you've pointed out). There is nothing about that which would make you not a male. If you weren't male, then you'd be straight, wouldn't you?

My point is that you are comparing this with a transgender scenario when it's not similar at all. You are simply a man who desires to be more stereo-typically "manly". There's absolutely nothing wrong with that but it's unrelated to trans issues. If a tomboy suddenly wanted to femme it up, that doesn't make her transgender; it makes her a woman who wants to be more like the average western idea of a woman.

Aside from all that, I say good luck and have fun with it. The spectrum of gender can be beautiful no matter where you stop on it. Just don't put too much thought into how to do it since it should come naturally. Just remember: you aren't changing genders, you are just expressing your gender differently.

a reply to: Cuervo
Thanks for those salient points, and also taking the thread in a more theoretical direction.
I love the humor so far, and I don't think discussions on gender should be all grumpy cat, but it is a serious issue to some people.

I don't want to say that transgender issues are the same as a man moving closer to the social ideal of masculinity (perhaps the "tough guise").
Sure they're both gender issues, but also different in many respects.
Luckily I came with the right package, and I don't need expensive and painful operations.
Just a few protein shakes.
I don't know what trangender people go through, and I try not to judge.
I'm not so sure the current media focus on trangender issues is very helpful as the only gender issue of the day.
It also others them and highlights their exceptionality, although coverage varies.
I just wanted to point out that there are many other gender issues in society.
Just pick up a men's fitness magazine, and look at the bodies and products that are presented as an aspiration.

I'd agree with social constructionist theorists (like Judith Butler) that gender is performed.
That's very obvious with groups like drag queens, some transgender people, camp and ironically butch gay men.
But few other people think about it, and the anxiety about gender performances like drag-shows partly seems to stem from a subtle realization that all masculinity and femininity are also performed.
It can be an unsettling sensation to some.
Of course, social constructionists aren't medical experts, and can't say what the root of a gender performance is, especially since it happens to most people unconsciously.
Is there some authentic self that's governed by genes and hormones, or is it partly cues we pick up from socialization (gender norms that may change in meaning over time, or different social settings)?
It certainly seems to vary in a lifetime in some individuals.
Perhaps some nerves are switched on and off.

Strangely it's hard for me to judge how successful my "performance" is.
I've heard from family that my entire posture and demeanor has been gradually changing.
It's not something that happened over-night.
Dr. Frankenfurter didn't make me a "man" in just seven days.
Although on the other hand, many people can still tell I'm gay (although I identify as bi, but that's a technicality).
It's not a horrible experience, just sometimes strange and confusing.

a reply to: halfoldman

I totally agree that transgender folks are not the entirety of gender issues. In fact, I don't even consider most instances of transgender cases being gender issues but, more accurately, medical issues. This is why I get annoyed when people try to explain away gender dysphoria as a product of social gender constructionism getting the better of people. It's absolutely not the same thing.

Males and females have plenty of issues to contend with, even withing their own gender. The expectations of fitting certain molds (which have never been static) is crushing in western culture and it's difficult to express yourself even as your own gender. So I am definitely not minimizing your experience in the slightest. I'm always impressed when people put any thought into what it means to be a "man" or a "woman".

Just keep in mind that there is no wrong way to be a man or a woman. I know that growing my breasts and getting a vagina isn't going to make me more into a woman because I already am that woman but I need to see it and be able to be seen as one in order to be comfortable. Just like you are already the man you are but you want to see yourself and be seen as that man that is inside of you.

Thanks for the thread, it's thought-provoking, for sure.

Here are a few quotes from ask men.com. I found them to be accurate from my point of view.

“A man does what he must -- in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers, and pressures -- and that is the basis of all human morality.”
“Between men and women there is no friendship possible. There is passion, enmity, worship, love, but no friendship.”
“A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do.”
“Men are like steel. When they lose their temper, they lose their worth.”
“After a certain age every man is responsible for his face” Chicks dig scars.
“Big jobs usually go to the men who prove their ability to outgrow small ones.”
“Few men have virtue to withstand the highest bidder.”
“It is not titles that make men illustrious, but men who make titles illustrious.”
"Criticism comes from all directions in life -- your spouse, your children, your colleagues. But in the end, it’s better to dismiss the ill will and maintain your own convictions. Plato is a perfect example."
“There is one kind of robber whom the law does not strike at, and who steals what is most precious to men: time.”

a reply to: Nickn3
Thanks for that.
Some tall and a bit scary orders to be a man!

Here's a poem I wrote recently for my mainly straight comrades.
I was a bit angry at the time, and perhaps a bit tired of the whole "privileged male" arguments, when I know being a man can mean tough times.
It's not all sunshine and glory below the surface.

"Man Song":
We were pushed in little norms,
march and shout and uniforms.
A shorter life just say your graces
build your muscles take up spaces.
Make the money, pray to God
while you're treated like a dog.
Don't move your lips, have no opinion,
fight for some dead queen's dominion.
Don't complain, there is no exit
after all you are a sexist.
You were born a useless male
you're more endangered than the whale.
Inferior you're not a leader
they even call your shirt wife-beater.
Don't pose too much that's just a guise,
don't think too much, you're never wise.
Born attached a male defect
just laugh it off; it won't infect.
You drink too much, the experts find
but that is just the male-child mind.
Feel the pressure to make wealth
and take the powders in Men's Health.
Lie awake as you can't sleep
without the shepherd no more sheep.
Violent, nasty, vain and cruel
but men can take it - it is cool.

You're mental, tired, hard and worn.
It must be all that bloody porn.

a reply to: Cuervo
Yeah, absolutely right, and social constructionists can just point out that visibly gender non-conformist groups challenge what many people see as an essential and unquestionable part of themselves.
I guess it's ultimately helpful in that we ask how one can reduce negative performances of gender, for example, gang cultures, rape or bigorexia in men.
That worries me too, because I was almost in a bar-fight recently, although that seems to have impressed some people.
But, temper and violence never end well.
I had to have a good think about myself.

But yeah the focus on tansgender people at the moment as being the only people with gender issues is rather hypocritical.
So many men and women are having surgeries or taking various powders and pills to look like a cultural gender ideal.
Yet this does not cause the same stigma, although it's also changing the body in ways that are not the natural birth body.
Steroid use in sport is almost an acceptable expectation, yet it can alter the male body.
It does sometimes make the news, but because it's enhancing the body for a widely recognized masculine performance, it's quickly forgiven and forgotten.

a reply to: ItsJoey

Flip this is a good clip!
Every male should watch this on their 18th birthday at least.