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The Real reason for the Removal of The Nathan Bedford Forrest Statue and Grave Site.

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posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:17 PM
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The confederate flag debate has made national headlines. With one of it's stories being AC Wardon the mayor of memphis TN, wants to remove the statue and grave site of confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest.


Well there may be more then meets the eye to this particular story. According to police memphis association president and mayoral hopeful Mike Williams, it has nothing to do with racism or history.

Appearently, a few years back there was a law passed in memphis allowing private buisnesses to lease or buy public parks. Well, the only thing stopping this specific park from being privatized is the fact those bodies are there. Because of this there have been multiple attempts to have it removed long befor the South Carolina shooting reignited the "should we glorify the civil war" debate.



I'm personally totally against the confederate flag. Without the racial stuff you still have the fact it is at best the flag of traitors. Considering the south renounced their citizenship and began performing terrorist attacks on the loyal American soldiers. But this is crazy interesting and 100% probubal!!
edit on 4-7-2015 by Entreri06 because: (no reason given)



+24 more 
posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:23 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

That last part about the confederates is wrong, You really don't know your history. Terrorist attacks? WTF Really? Loyal american soldiers? What planet are you even on. Confederates were not deemed traitors but simply americans who fought for what they believed in. Go back to history class.


+7 more 
posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:31 PM
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a reply to: 4N0M4LY

To add to my post:

I don't have a problem with the removal of the confederate flag. What pisses me off is when people are actively trying to erase the Civil War Monuments to History to pretend it never happened. History repeats itself when people forget why and how the civil war happened in the first place. Mark my words.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:39 PM
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originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
a reply to: Entreri06

That last part about the confederates is wrong, You really don't know your history. Terrorist attacks? WTF Really? Loyal american soldiers? What planet are you even on. Confederates were not deemed traitors but simply americans who fought for what they believed in. Go back to history class.

Actually a number of Confederate leaders were indicted for treason but were not tried for their crime because they were given blanket amnesty by President Andrew Johnson when he left office. But what they did was a treasonous act and should have been tried for their crime.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:40 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

I suggest you Read George Orwell's Book " 1984 " . A Fictional Book becoming Reality Today . The Rewriting of History is Nothing More than a Control Mechanism used to Brainwash the Masses into Thinking they have a semblance of Freedom in a Society that to the Contrary has None..........



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:41 PM
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a reply to: 4N0M4LY



History repeats itself when people forget why and how the civil war happened in the first place.

Unless the South wants to use slave labor again then history won't repeat itself.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:43 PM
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originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
a reply to: Entreri06

That last part about the confederates is wrong, You really don't know your history. Terrorist attacks? WTF Really? Loyal american soldiers? What planet are you even on. Confederates were not deemed traitors but simply americans who fought for what they believed in. Go back to history class.




Well said!!!!


I would like to add that while the Civil War was in fact fought over slavery as a main issue . The part that is left out was the southern resistance against federal imposition on their rights .


It falls back to the adoption and ratification of the Constitution. Where the whole matter of nullification of unconstitutional amendments by states was not settle and left solely in the hands of the federal government via the Supreme Court of the United States .
edit on 4-7-2015 by Greathouse because: (no reason given)


+5 more 
posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:46 PM
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originally posted by: Entreri06I'm personally totally against the confederate flag. Without the racial stuff you still have the fact it is at best the flag of traitors. Considering the south renounced their citizenship and began performing terrorist attacks on the loyal American soldiers. But this is crazy interesting and 100% probubal!!


Well, I hope you're totally against the US flag as well, since all the founding fathers were also considered traitors. You know both sides of any civil war look at the other sides as tyrants or traitors.

Cheers - Dave



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:46 PM
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originally posted by: buster2010

originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
a reply to: Entreri06

That last part about the confederates is wrong, You really don't know your history. Terrorist attacks? WTF Really? Loyal american soldiers? What planet are you even on. Confederates were not deemed traitors but simply americans who fought for what they believed in. Go back to history class.

Actually a number of Confederate leaders were indicted for treason but were not tried for their crime because they were given blanket amnesty by President Andrew Johnson when he left office. But what they did was a treasonous act and should have been tried for their crime.



By that statement you are saying you support the current structure of the federal government .



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:50 PM
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a reply to: bobs_uruncle

Great Point Made.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 08:55 PM
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a reply to: buster2010

The south wasn't only just about slavery it was a whole other multitude of grievances that we are somewhat dealing with in todays societies....

Yeah I'd say we are close to repeating history in a certain way if things continue down the road currently. Just my opinion however.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 09:20 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

On the topic of moving the graves: It figures that the real reason would be about money. Just find something to get people riled up and make them want you to do what you want.

On the topic of the Confederacy: It was a revolution, a failed one, but a revolution. Without revolution there would be no America and the holiday that we're celebrating today would not exist. Also, revolting against tyranny is a duty to Americans. The revolt was over unfair taxation and tariffs.

Also, this is from a letter that Lincoln wrote to Horace Greeley:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

And then there's this little tidbit:

"Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860), p. 160.

SOURCE
The issue wasn't about slavery. The issue was over secession.
LINK

You might also find this of interest:

The SLAVE states of Maryland, Missouri, Delaware, Kentucky, as well as the District of Columbia, were SLAVE STATES in the Union that fought for the NORTH.

There are other little known facts there.
Link
Something else that might be of interest:
In defence of the Confederate flag
edit on 4-7-2015 by Skid Mark because: Edit



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 09:31 PM
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originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
a reply to: Entreri06

That last part about the confederates is wrong, You really don't know your history. Terrorist attacks? WTF Really? Loyal american soldiers? What planet are you even on. Confederates were not deemed traitors but simply americans who fought for what they believed in. Go back to history class.



I grew up in Vicksburg MS, "the key to the war". I've been force fed civil war history my whole life.

I know the civil war was fought over taxes, not slavery. Slavery was a military tactic to cause chaos behind enemy lines.

None of that changes the fact that the constitution and the fact we live in a democracy means there is a way to change government if you don't like it. One that involves VOTING!! Not killing American soldiers.


The civil war wasn't the north vs. The south. It was the south vs. America!
edit on 4-7-2015 by Entreri06 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 09:57 PM
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originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
a reply to: 4N0M4LY

To add to my post:

I don't have a problem with the removal of the confederate flag. What pisses me off is when people are actively trying to erase the Civil War Monuments to History to pretend it never happened. History repeats itself when people forget why and how the civil war happened in the first place. Mark my words.
I don't think people are erasing history. I just think they are tired of people glorifying traitors. If the placard read "renounced his citizen ship and fought in a failed rebellion that cost thousands of American lives". But that's not what they say. They make them out to be Heros not traitors.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:10 PM
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originally posted by: bobs_uruncle

originally posted by: Entreri06I'm personally totally against the confederate flag. Without the racial stuff you still have the fact it is at best the flag of traitors. Considering the south renounced their citizenship and began performing terrorist attacks on the loyal American soldiers. But this is crazy interesting and 100% probubal!!


Well, I hope you're totally against the US flag as well, since all the founding fathers were also considered traitors. You know both sides of any civil war look at the other sides as tyrants or traitors.

Cheers - Dave


Except the founding fathers were traitors to great Britain... We don't live in great Britan. The south were traitors to America! Which we still live in......

Obviously...



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:14 PM
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originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
a reply to: buster2010

The south wasn't only just about slavery it was a whole other multitude of grievances that we are somewhat dealing with in todays societies....

Yeah I'd say we are close to repeating history in a certain way if things continue down the road currently. Just my opinion however.


Yes and if mississippi gets mad over gay marriage and a bunch of us attack the army base at Camp Shelby in Hattiesburg, it's treason. They could vote back then to....at lest if you were white. But that was good enough. They chose to kill loyal Americans!



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:28 PM
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originally posted by: Skid Mark
a reply to: Entreri06

On the topic of moving the graves: It figures that the real reason would be about money. Just find something to get people riled up and make them want you to do what you want.

On the topic of the Confederacy: It was a revolution, a failed one, but a revolution. Without revolution there would be no America and the holiday that we're celebrating today would not exist. Also, revolting against tyranny is a duty to Americans. The revolt was over unfair taxation and tariffs.

Also, this is from a letter that Lincoln wrote to Horace Greeley:

"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

And then there's this little tidbit:

"Do the people of the South really entertain fears that a Republican administration would, directly, or indirectly, interfere with their slaves, or with them, about their slaves? If they do, I wish to assure you, as once a friend, and still, I hope, not an enemy, that there is no cause for such fears." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Letter to Alexander H. Stephens" (December 22, 1860), p. 160.

SOURCE
The issue wasn't about slavery. The issue was over secession.
LINK

You might also find this of interest:

The SLAVE states of Maryland, Missouri, Delaware, Kentucky, as well as the District of Columbia, were SLAVE STATES in the Union that fought for the NORTH.

There are other little known facts there.
Link
Something else that might be of interest:
In defence of the Confederate flag


It's because I know the history that I didn't say it should be removed for racial reasons. The case is there to be made because the confederate flag came back into "pop culture" due to being adopted by the anti-civil rights movement. It was barely used in the civil war. However, that's the way revolutions always go. Win and you get to rule your new kingdom. Lose and your traitors. The south lost.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:43 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

Both sides has heroes. People glorifying traitors is your opinion not fact, the fact that people are proud to have relatives who fought against the union in the civil war. Everyone was an american and loyal to their own duties on both sides of the line. The south had seen it as no alternative but to fight. History at least is recorded as such. Neither of us were "actually" there. So you and I know nothing about what choices they actually had. Politics wasn't a first thought back then either.



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:46 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06



What you said reminds me of this:
“Every man should endeavor to understand the meaning of subjugation before it is too late… It means the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern schoolteachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the war; will be impressed by the influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, and our maimed veterans as fit objects for derision… It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government, and to deprive us of our rights and liberties.”


Maj. General Patrick R. Cleburne, CSA, January 1864

Sounds like they took a page out of a George Orwell novel.
In other words:
“He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”
― George Orwell, 1984
Or: “The most effective way to destroy people is to deny and obliterate their own understanding of their history.”
― George Orwell



posted on Jul, 4 2015 @ 10:50 PM
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a reply to: Entreri06

Wrong again. It wasn't a simple choice to kill "loyal" americans as you put it. If it was they would've done it earlier. You assume going to war and killing people is a simple choice. It is by far the most difficult choice. Just to throw in another historical fact the black soldiers were treated worse and were more racist in the union than the black soldiers who served under the confederacy and were given higher leadership roles.

You assume the union was the hero of that time when both sides had their good and bad outlooks as a whole. Loyal americans as you call it is all in your imaginative perspective.




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