Originally posted by Gazrok

1. We don't hate "Christians", we dislike (not hate) the religion itself, and what it espouses.

You dislike the religion and what it espouses? The love your neighbor like yourself part, or something else?

2. Any religion that focuses on "converting" others to it's beliefs is suspect. Christianity happens to simply be a prime offender in this category, even to the point of only providing aid to the needy after sitting through a sermon/brainwashing session!

That means Islam is suspect, as well. Along with athiesm, and many unitarians.

3. Any religion that preaches that only IT's followers will be "saved", again has problems. If such a religion is correct, then surely, over half of the world's population would be doomed. What kind of God would allow such a thing? Would such a deity be worthy of worship?

Then almost every religion in the world has "problems". It's only the new, "enlightened" religions that have been coming out this past century (and Hinduism, I think) that have decided that every path to God is the right one. What kind of God would allow someone who decided ritual serial killing pleased God, went and did that until they got shot up by cops in a huge firefight, and is sitting there in Heaven next to Mother Teresa (SP) who sacrificed her entire life to help other people? That's not very just...

4. Christianity has increasingly tried to encroach on the lives of those who want no part of it. For example, adding "under God" in the pledge, the fact that it says "In God We Trust" on the money in my pocket, etc. If you want to believe in such a thing, fine, go ahead, but don't ram it down my throat...keep it to yourself.

Why are you so afraid of hearing "under God" in the pledge and reading "In God We Trust" on your money? If you don't care about something, it's pretty easy to ignore. If you're running from it, afraid, or hate it, then it's a little more difficult to ignore. What is it about God that frightens/angers you so much?

5. Ignorance is often frustrating. Despite overwhelming evidence that the Earth is billions of years old, many Christians still insist that the story of Creation holds true...even to the point of attempted fossil hoaxes to try and show dinos with man, or that giant humans once walked, etc.

Goliath, according to the Tora, was about 8'8" high. Not a HUGE giant, just a giant among men, like Andre. There are many holes in the evolutionary theory, yet it is taught as fact. There are many threads on this website about this, so I won't go into too much detail. I'm still out on this one and am currently reading through On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life so as to get an unbiased idea as to what, exactly, Darwin said evolution is.

6. Christianity has even embarked upon wars against non-believers, despite their mandate (thou shalt not kill), and have tortured and killed those accused of heresy throughout the ages. Of course, they are not alone in this, but again, still guilty of it.

The mandate is thou shalt no murder, and there is a huge difference. However, that doesn't justify the crusades(sp). I can't. They were wrong. Jesus is love, and the Spanish Inquisition was exactly the opposite of that. There is no exscuse.

Perhaps the above are just some of the reasons some of us feel this way towards the religion? (not towards it's followers...whom we mostly consider simply duped, many since they were children and indoctrinated with the faith since birth)

Glad to say I wasn't raised this way, I came to my faith about 5 years ago after being an evangelical athiest for about 8 years. (I've always liked to share my opinion on things )

I'm assuming then, that you haven't been watching the news lately, as we have been actively engaging upon new Crusades, led by none other than Paladin George, who claims to speak to God and is doing his work...
[edit on 30-12-2004 by Gazrok]

...heh

Originally posted by LadyV
Your the one that said you followed the religion and you were not one of those lukewarm Christians......

Following the religion and being a full blown, died in the wool, Christ honoring, born again Christian does not make me perfect. It makes me strive for perfection. I've recently quit smoking, I've cut way back on the bottle to the point where I don't get drunk anymore, just occasionally enjoy a Guiness (mmmm, Guiness....). I want to grow more in my faith, not just have it as something to carry around with me to make me feel better whenever I have need. That's what it means to not be lukewarm.


"Christianity is the only true religion, only though Christ will you survive, blaa, blaa, blaa...."
So if I believe that, I can't say that in a debate because it means I'm preaching?


EDIT: Ain't it fun having me back?



[edit on 12-30-2004 by junglejake]

Surly you are not so...whatever, (have to be careful here] that you can't understand what was being said in the post you quoted above It's not not so much that "under god" is on the money...that doesn't bother me, it's that it is forced on those that doesn't believe it....though I do believe in a god...just not yours the way he is portrayed.

And surly you know that there are many, the ones I usually know...that preach and preach...but don't practice what they preach at all....hypocrites...do as I say not as I do, crap

And as to the love your neighbor...you have got to be kidding me.....I can't believe you would even bring that up! Do you mean like...bashing gays, burning witches, downing other religions....this list could go on and on and on and on......death, kill and destruction in the name of god!

Originally posted by junglejake

So if I believe that, I can't say that in a debate because it means I'm preaching?

Sure you can! You can say "I" believe that...... but no, in a debate you can not tell someone else..."what I say is right and the only way".....which is what I see and hear all the time...stated as if it is the dead truth.....it's not...it's what you believe and you believing it does not make it true!

Originally posted by junglejake
Why are you so afraid of hearing "under God" in the pledge and reading "In God We Trust" on your money? If you don't care about something, it's pretty easy to ignore. If you're running from it, afraid, or hate it, then it's a little more difficult to ignore. What is it about God that frightens/angers you so much?

I think what many people have a problem with is being TOLD that they need to be saved [from sin]. That presumes that they are immoral and so it is already a personal attack on their moral charactor and integrity.

Originally posted by LadyV
And as to the love your neighbor...you have got to be kidding me.....I can't believe you would even bring that up! Do you mean like...bashing gays, burning witches, downing other religions....this list could go on and on and on and on......death, kill and destruction in the name of god!

Funny how the radical anti-Christian people always want to concentrate on the mistakes of some fallible misguided people and ignore the love and direction that Jesus preached. We don’t worship the mistakes of humanity we worship Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Originally posted by kinglizard


Funny how the radical anti-Christian people always want to concentrate on the mistakes of some fallible misguided people and ignore the love and direction that Jesus preached. We don’t worship the mistakes of humanity we worship Jesus Christ and his teachings.

No Lizard you are dead wrong! For one...I'm not very radical The fact that Jesus preached love and acceptance is exactly my point! Too many Christians...that "I" know....do just the opposite. They use snips and bits of the bible to hate, condemn, act better than, kill....."that's" what many people dislike about the religion.....many Christians do everything their not supposed to do and then throw that "but I'm forgiven crap" at you....for me and many others....it doesn't wash. People, like children, learn by example...

Originally posted by LadyV
Really!? You don't ever get drunk, do you smoke? Ever look at good looking woman and think..."hmmm" Do you flirted while in a committed relationship, ever look at pornography? Lie about anything...maybe a sick day from work, ever been divorced? As to the preaching......no one want to hear it....it's pointless of you. If one is going to change to their religion, it will not be because someone is preaching at them on an internet BB!

So ah, you're saying you could be a better Christian? I'd welcome that.
I agree that this platform is an unlikely place to change someone's religion. You brought up a good point earlier LadyV, about being pushed/forced into hearing about Christianity. When I was young, I was made to go to church and sit through long, dry sermons against my true heart's will and it was a turn-off for many years. It took a grim spiritual war a decade later to even look at it again without bitterness. I'm here to help people who ask for it. Everything else is just me enjoying the education and occasional banter.

A note: Just about every Christian has a story to tell. I don't know of any who was 'just raised' Christian and therefore are Christian. There had to be something to either cause them to believe or confirm the belief. Pull out people specifically and ask, I'm sure they'd be flattered. Granted, it may not change your life because one has to live their own experience, but may be equally educational and facinating.

Note to other Christians: see this as an excellent opportunity to hear the questions you hadn't thought of asking, take criticism of your thoughts, and perceptions of your actions. It's a great growth experience to face challenges, dig into the 'why' questions, and seek answers as well.

[edit on 30-12-2004 by saint4God]

Double post? Deleting second. Sorry, I'm not perfect

[edit on 30-12-2004 by saint4God]

LadyV, So it’s not Christianity you hate it’s the people?

[edit on 30-12-2004 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
So it’s not Christianity you hate it’s the people?

I don't "hate" anyone....there isn't a single person from my childhood abusers on, that I can think of that I hate....I do dislike some.....
aaaanyway...no, I don't hate Christians or the religion. I hate being told that have to believe as they do or I'm wrong....In all actuality, as I have said many times before on this board, I believe the bible....but not the way you guys do, I believe there was a Jesus...just not
the way it is portrayed in the bible....I believe in a god, but not the way you do....I think the bible has been added to and taken away from, mistranslated and books left out...and it's impossible to get the real truth that way....my belief. I think in the end, a lot of those that have never been in a church or called themselves "Christian" are going to find they're ok....and a lot of those that sat their butt up in church every time the doors were open...are gonna get a surprise.

You dislike the religion and what it espouses? The love your neighbor like yourself part, or something else?

There is good with the bad. As I mentioned in my following points, I dislike the religion for it's purpose of conversion, the way it's strived to keep the masses ignorant (especially the early church, remember only priests were taught to read), and the belief it holds that non-believers are all doomed.

That means Islam is suspect, as well. Along with athiesm, and many unitarians.

You are correct sir. I never claimed my ire was reserved only for Christianity... I dislike all organized religion, as their basic beliefs, that only THEY will be saved, cannot be correct...and if it IS correct, then I really want no part of such a deity.

Then almost every religion in the world has "problems". It's only the new, "enlightened" religions that have been coming out this past century (and Hinduism, I think) that have decided that every path to God is the right one. What kind of God would allow someone who decided ritual serial killing pleased God, went and did that until they got shot up by cops in a huge firefight, and is sitting there in Heaven next to Mother Teresa (SP) who sacrificed her entire life to help other people? That's not very just...

Yep. Again, most organized religions have this problem. Christianity simply excells in it. According to Christianity, said serial killer CAN be sitting right next to Mother Theresa, as long as the killer repented, accepted Jesus, blah blah blah...yet a little Bhuddist boy in China who steps on a land mine, and has never known God, by most Christian dogmas, would NOT go to Heaven. Is THAT just? Ah...see now?

Why are you so afraid of hearing "under God" in the pledge and reading "In God We Trust" on your money? If you don't care about something, it's pretty easy to ignore. If you're running from it, afraid, or hate it, then it's a little more difficult to ignore. What is it about God that frightens/angers you so much?

It's not fear, or anger. It's disagreement. In order to pledge my allegiance to my country, I am also required to pledge my allegiance to a deity to which I do not believe in. Would YOU be pleased if we changed it say, "under Allah"? No, I didn't think so. Same difference.

Goliath, according to the Tora, was about 8'8" high. Not a HUGE giant, just a giant among men, like Andre. There are many holes in the evolutionary theory, yet it is taught as fact. There are many threads on this website about this, so I won't go into too much detail. I'm still out on this one and am currently reading through On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life so as to get an unbiased idea as to what, exactly, Darwin said evolution is.

I must be lax in my Christian studies, as I thought the Bible, not the Torah, was the basis for the mythology. Goliath isn't the only mention either. Evolution is ALWAYS termed as the THEORY of Evolution. I have never seen it taught as fact. Let me ask you this though. Do you think that fingernails were designed by God as cute little accents? Or do you think that they are the remains of claws from an earlier form? Do you think God designed us with vestigal tails?

The mandate is thou shalt no murder, and there is a huge difference. However, that doesn't justify the crusades(sp). I can't. They were wrong. Jesus is love, and the Spanish Inquisition was exactly the opposite of that. There is no exscuse.

I was raised as a Baptist, was always taught it was "kill" and that's the translations I saw as well. You are obviously forgetting some of the OLD testament though, as before Jesus, God was about FEAR and OBEDIENCE, not love.

Glad to say I wasn't raised this way, I came to my faith about 5 years ago after being an evangelical athiest for about 8 years. (I've always liked to share my opinion on things )

I'm glad you found and defined your own beliefs. I respect your right to believe differently. Unfortunately, many Christians (not all) do not respect my right to do the same.

I think the bible has been added to and taken away from, mistranslated and books left out...and it's impossible to get the real truth that way....my belief

More than a belief....that's a FACT...and one the Church has often admitted to....albeit reluctantly.

[edit on 30-12-2004 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by LadyV
I don't hate Christians or the religion. I hate being told that have to believe as they do or I'm wrong....In all actuality, as I have said many times before on this board, I believe the bible....but not the way you guys do, I believe there was a Jesus...just not
the way it is portrayed in the bible....I believe in a god, but not the way you do....

I guess I was confused because of you post:

Originally posted by LadyV
And as to the love your neighbor...you have got to be kidding me.....I can't believe you would even bring that up! Do you mean like...bashing gays, burning witches, downing other religions....this list could go on and on and on and on......death, kill and destruction in the name of god!

You were defending your anti-Christian beliefs with the misguided actions of a few people, as you know this is far from fair. Jesus taught peace and love not “death, kill and destruction in the name of god!”. It’s not God’s fault that some perverted his word. I realize bringing up the crusades and the like is an easy way to defend your beliefs but it’s not what Christianity is all about. Don’t condemn Christians or the Bible because a handful of people burned witches in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Originally posted by Gazrok
I must be lax in my Christian studies, as I thought the Bible, not the Torah, was the basis for the mythology. Goliath isn't the only mention either. Evolution is ALWAYS termed as the THEORY of Evolution. I have never seen it taught as fact. Let me ask you this though. Do you think that fingernails were designed by God as cute little accents? Or do you think that they are the remains of claws from an earlier form? Do you think God designed us with vestigal tails?

I'm just going to address this one since I'm at work and getting nasty looks from my boss who noticed I was coming back to ATS again. I work for an Orthodox Jewish company, and whenever this subject comes up, I refer to the Old Testament as the Tora -- they're one in the same. You can call something a theory and still teach and act as though it is fact. Again, I'm still out on what I believe as far as evolution goes, and the more I learn the more confused I'm becoming. It's going to take a lot more research on my part to come to a conclusion. However, how on earth would our eye evolve? Without every part of it functioning correctly, it would be non-functional. So while fingernails may be similar to claws losing their use, the mamilian eye would have to go from one stage of development immediatelly to the next without evolving or it wouldn't work. Just like I won't be working shortly if I don't get back to it

Originally posted by kinglizard




You were defending your anti-Christian beliefs with the misguided actions of a few people, as you know this is far from fair. Jesus taught peace and love not “death, kill and destruction in the name of god!”. It’s not God’s fault that some perverted his word.

why would that make you think I hate anyone!? Aaaaanway, I don't really have to "defend" my beliefs....it's what I believe....as to the love thy neighbor stuff and Christians being loving, wonderful people....I'm sure there are those out there that are just that way! I have never met any personally...there seems to be a couple here on this board. The Christians I know are always telling me how wrong I am, voting against gay marriage because it offends god think they can do what they want cause they are forgiven....to be totally up front and honest with you...those that actually follow Christian teachings the most that I know....aren't Christians!

in the UK in the 60s, on average there were around 65% who believed in christianity. that number has now dropped down to 45%. it is the younger generation that is no longer turning to christ in the time of need. religion plays no part in most of the younger generations lives today as it would have done many years ago. for instance 40 years ago the family would sit at the table on the holy sunday and say thankyou to god for everything. now we are in the 21st century it becomes apparent to me that less and less people feel the need to cling on to so much hope and faith from one god. in another 50 years i predict the number of christians will drop to around 25%. in 100 years the minority will be so small it will be known as a cult. soon enough i believe the religion will fade, the teachings will be lost...the only thing surviving will be a manuscript (the bible) that has no place in the lives of people living in 100 years time.

Originally posted by shaunybaby
it is the younger generation that is no longer turning to christ in the time of need. religion plays no part in most of the younger generations lives today as it would have done many years ago.

I disagree.....I think the younger generation still searches for spirituality....but they are not as prone to just "do as I say" As I stated above, people learn by example. I personally think that many Christians make the religion look bad and it chases younger people off

EDITED to add.....I owe, I owe...so off to work I go.......I'll have to pick this up later

[edit on 12/30/2004 by LadyV]

Jesus taught peace and love not “death, kill and destruction in the name of god!”

Maybe so, but you should read the Old Testament, as his father was ALL about that, hehe...

The mammalian eye would have to go from one stage of development immediately to the next without evolving or it wouldn't work.

There are plenty of organisms with only partially developed "eyes". Out of curiousity, are the other various hominids found simply "prototypes" designed by God? No doubt there are some problems with Evolution, but there is also a great difficulty in obtaining fossils as well. Such things decay as a rule. Fossils are the exception, NOT the rule, and depend on circumstances in order to preserve examples. For a complete fossil record to exist, one such example from every single adaptation would have had to either been sealed in amber, frozen in the ground, sealed in rock, etc. etc. etc. Such is likely not ever going to be the case. There will always be gaps. Still, for these faults, it certainly has a LOT more going for it than the rather ludicrous idea of pure Creationism. If anything, even most Christians believe in a blend of Creationism and Evolution (and this will likely be your conclusion given your beliefs). That a sentient Creator created all of these things, and that they then adapted slow and minor changes to their form, to adapt to their environment. It's kind of a happy medium.

I believe there is some kind of Intelligent Design at work...but not that it can be pinned down to any established religion. I believe the basic idea behind most religions is essentially correct, unfortunately, they've gotten so swept up in establishing their own rules, dogma, and comparing themselves to others, that they've completely missed the point.

I've said it before I'll say it again.
THE REASON PEOPLE DON'T LIKE CHRISTAINS IS BECASUES OF THE UN-EDUCATED AND IGNORANT PEOPLE WHO MAKE UP A LARGE PORTON OF THE CHURCH.

If you were to ever stumble upon a true christain you would know it. There is a large and I mean LARGE portion of catholics that are stuck up snobs. As a catholic myself I see it all the time. I have asked my highschool relgion teachers stuff that has made me doubt if I should be a catholic. Simply becasue the stuff they would do was so contradctory and made no sense and followed none of the teachens. BUT you defy them and your going to hell. There are many people in the congeraton that have: No clue what the teachings are, No clue as to the basic rules of action as a christain, and do not follow the gospel on a daily basis.

I want to comment on the "Spreading the Gospel" thing. Yes, we do try to spread the godpel because we believe that through it you have the greatest chance of being saved. BUT trying to spread the Gospel over the internet is the most absured thing. Jesus taught that the greatest way to spread the gospel was through your own actions of kindless and love to your fellow man.

Yet again I am anything but saying I hate christians. I am one and I am descerning a catholic vocation.

The reason why this always happens is because people go out and make total arse's of themselves. Ever been in an argument with someone and lost your temmper? How smart does that meke you look? not verry. Same thing. THere are abunch of uneducated christans that think they speak the word of God and 50% of the time they are wrong.

We are destroying ourselves.

[edit on 30-12-2004 by Mizar]

Originally posted by Gazrok

Jesus taught peace and love not “death, kill and destruction in the name of god!”

Maybe so, but you should read the Old Testament, as his father was ALL about that, hehe...

We have a new covenant with God with the birth, death and resurrection of Christ.