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At what point should we step in and say "Stop being religious..."

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posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 12:14 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147

Why not just mind your own panel?
Release yourself from judgement.




posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 01:39 AM
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I am an atheist but I have to admit, It's not religions fault,
It's the people fault, I 'll share the Aesops ''God helps them that help themselves story'' or by word ''Pray to God, but also do something about it''
(Σὺν Ἀθηνᾷ καὶ χεῖρα κίνει (Syn Athena kai chira kinie))

THE SHIPWRECKED MAN AND ATHENA
''A wealthy Athenian was making a sea voyage with some companions. A terrible storm blew up and the ship capsized. All the other passengers started to swim, but the Athenian kept praying to Athena, making all kinds of promises if only she would save him. Then one of the other shipwrecked passengers swam past him and said, 'While you pray to Athena, start moving your arms!'



So what they should have done is pray for the cat, but also take her to a vet!
Just praying shows to me that they don't really care about the animal as they would probably care about people.
edit on SunSun, 05 Jul 2015 01:41:46 -05001AMk000000Sundayam by Dr1Akula because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 04:06 AM
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I think claiming that you are an 'atheist' is equally as irrational as any other view that is based on thought/speculation which is *not* empirical.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 04:21 AM
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originally posted by: Ghost147
a reply to: borntowatch

I'm not saying that atheists are any better or worse than any religious people. However, there aren't any Atheist beliefs to really go on in this topic considering it is an absence of belief on a single subject. Anti-abortion is not a christian exclusive population. Nor is the subject of choice only claimed a better option solely by the non-religious.

So again, does it really hold any merit to allow suffering or even murder for the sake of being tolerant to any part of any belief? If I start up a religion that is then recognized as an official religion by my country, and I then state it is part of my religion to assault a virgin every month, you would be perfectly fine with it because we must respect religious belief no matter what?


No thats a strawman

I never said that. I firmly believe that there are some very silly believers and many non believers who call themselves believers.

Atheism is subject to beliefs, beliefs like say, the North Korean leader (then he thinks himself a god).

If someone be in error then they need to be shown, if you cant explain because you dont understand then maybe identify someone who can

Maybe I should pen a thread titled "At what point should we step in and say "Stop being atheist..."

Because there are many silly atheists

Anti animal cruelty is not exclusively an atheist agenda, though you seem to proclaim it is.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 10:19 AM
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originally posted by: Layaly
a reply to: Ghost147

thank u for ur reply

my question was if u can subsidiese in ur mind that redicilous pray for it for they are just hippies or herbalists
would it be less painfully for ur experience with them or not really


It would be easier for me to accept it as "possibly beneficial" as I would with a herbal treatment if I wasn't already aware of studies involving the effectiveness of Prayer. The studies concluded that not only did praying not really help, but there was a statistical value that showed that praying for the sick may actually worsen their condition (Due to psychological reasons, so this wouldn't apply to the cat) Source

As for your questions; we aren't very close to that part of the family, so they never had the chance to push anything on anyone else.


originally posted by: Wildmanimal
a reply to: Ghost147

Why not just mind your own panel?
Release yourself from judgement.


Because it would be irresponsible to simply ignore their actions when the pain, suffering, and lives of others are involved.

If our cousin dropped a chicken egg whilst making breakfast, and tried to pray for it to be better, I'd say "Go ahead! that's your choice". However, no one else is being subjected to anything negative in that action.

Perhaps you're viewing it too much as your own religion, therefore cannot get past the subject. So lets hypothesis that I started my own religion that worshiped alien life, and I claimed they gave me the power to cure people. I accidentally ran you over out in the country side, took you back to my home instead of the hospital, and then said to you "Don't worry, i can heal you, it will just take several hours". You're legs and back are totally broken and you're bleeding to death. Should you respect my beliefs and slowly and painfully die, or should you find a way to get to the hospital?



originally posted by: Dr1Akula
I am an atheist but I have to admit, It's not religions fault,
It's the people fault, I 'll share the Aesops ''God helps them that help themselves story'' or by word ''Pray to God, but also do something about it''


Yes, I understand it is the peoples fault. However, in their mind it is their religious beliefs that are the sole cause for them feeling this is the most appropriate action, no matter how inaccurate those beliefs are to general Christianity. So would it make a difference if it had no relation to Christianity and it was a different religion all together?

The point is, their beliefs (which are 100% fueled by religious reasons) are the cause of these absurd actions.


originally posted by: nOraKat
I think claiming that you are an 'atheist' is equally as irrational as any other view that is based on thought/speculation which is *not* empirical.


You are more than welcome to believe that. The only thing is, Atheists don't have anything in common other than the one defining trait that makes an atheist an atheist; a lack of belief in a god. This incident in the OP could NEVER happen due to atheism because there is no other beliefs to make poor judgements off of.


originally posted by: borntowatch
I never said that. I firmly believe that there are some very silly believers and many non believers who call themselves believers. Atheism is subject to beliefs, beliefs like say, the North Korean leader (then he thinks himself a god).


Hahaha. do you realize that if he really believes he is a god, then he is not an atheist? Are you aware that the only requirement to being an Atheist is to have a LACK OF BELIEF in gods?

How is that an example of atheism being a subject of beliefs? That's a ridiculous notion. There is absolutely nothing that Atheists are required or subject to require to share in common with any other atheist than the lack of belief in a god.

Sorry, but you simply cannot get around that fact. Atheism is not a belief system, it is not a religion, and there are no books to follow or beliefs to follow. Any atheist can believe or not believe in anything else (so long as it doesn't apply to a god).


originally posted by: borntowatch
If someone be in error then they need to be shown, if you cant explain because you dont understand then maybe identify someone who can


Explain what? Who's in error? The cousins?


originally posted by: borntowatch
Maybe I should pen a thread titled "At what point should we step in and say "Stop being atheist..."

Because there are many silly atheists


You're more than welcome to do so. Make sure to post here saying that you have, I'd greatly like to discuss your misconceptions there.


originally posted by: borntowatch
Anti animal cruelty is not exclusively an atheist agenda, though you seem to proclaim it is.


When did I say that? I simply showed that I was an atheist to show that I accept other people believing what they wish so long as they don't hurt others, and that my relatives here extremely religious and their sole reasoning for their actions is due to their personal theological beliefs.

When did I ever say "This is an example of all religious people committing animal cruelty!" or "Only atheists are pure at heart and mind!"

Your accusations hold no grounds. Feel free to back up your claims with quotes instead of just slandering me.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 11:19 AM
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originally posted by: Ghost147

When did I ever say "This is an example of all religious people committing animal cruelty!" or "Only atheists are pure at heart and mind!"

Your accusations hold no grounds. Feel free to back up your claims with quotes instead of just slandering me.


Just the title

I Have no more to say on this, you seem to have made your point very clear



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 11:25 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147

Oh these type of post show up every other month, lets try and convert people to my beliefs atheism because their are people out their who don't use their brains. Why would God heal their cat when they aren't doing everything they can to make it better. I would tell them slothfulness is a sin take the cat to the vet and quite being lazy.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 04:21 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147

Oh these type of post show up every other month, lets try and convert people to my beliefs atheism because their are people out their who don't use their brains.


I didn't literally mean to say "strip them from all their beliefs", just noting that there are limits in which we should respect another persons religion (for instance, when it causes harm to other things, despite good intentions). In my first sentence in this topic I even state "you can believe what you wish", so clearly I'm not trying to "Convert people to atheism" (not that that is possible anyway, considering Atheism is not a belief system)



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 04:51 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147





I didn't literally mean to say "strip them from all their beliefs", just noting that there are limits in which we should respect another persons religion (for instance, when it causes harm to other things, despite good intentions).


Kinda hard to justify that statement and continue to be intellectually consistent with atheism. In fact I'd say from an atheistic standpoint there are no limits on anything. Atheism lacks any objective basis for moral obligations and as such can choose to be disrespectful or respectful and there would be no difference.




In my first sentence in this topic I even state "you can believe what you wish", so clearly I'm not trying to "Convert people to atheism" (not that that is possible anyway, considering Atheism is not a belief system)


It doesn't matter what you said you have anti-religious agenda. Just because atheism doesn't adhere to a religious belief system doesn't mean its not a belief system. Belief systems are the ideas we have about reality. In order to be an atheist you must lack belief in all supernatural deities. That is the idea all atheist share about reality. Its a belief system, that outlook determines how you interpret incoming information of reality.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 05:08 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Kinda hard to justify that statement and continue to be intellectually consistent with atheism. In fact I'd say from an atheistic standpoint there are no limits on anything. Atheism lacks any objective basis for moral obligations and as such can choose to be disrespectful or respectful and there would be no difference.


Darn, you sure got me beat. How ever will I understand right from wrong without a sacred text of some sort?

You do realize that 0.07% of prison inmates in the US are atheists? Kind of goes against your reasoning, doesn't it? www.patheos.com...

So are you saying that if somehow in the future (hypothetically), your religion were to be totally proven false, you would instantly start killing people, sexually assaulting people, stealing, vandalizing, and so on simply because you've "lost your moral guidance"? Doesn't really make you a good person to begin with if the only thing stopping you is your fear of a god or magical words in a book. How is it that I have not done any of those things without the secret key to morality that you possess?


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
It doesn't matter what you said you have anti-religious agenda.


Actually, it does matter what I said when you directly accuse me of saying something I didn't say.



originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Just because atheism doesn't adhere to a religious belief system doesn't mean its not a belief system.


I didn't say it wasn't a "Religious belief system" I said it isn't a belief system in general.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Belief systems are the ideas we have about reality. In order to be an atheist you must lack belief in all supernatural deities. That is the idea all atheist share about reality. Its a belief system, that outlook determines how you interpret incoming information of reality.


Also incorrect. I fully believe in ghosts, some people would even say Aliens are part of the supernatural, and I also believe in those. Other Atheists do not believe in either of those things. Furthermore, other atheists may believe in even more supernatural things.

The ONLY things that is required to be considered an "Atheist" is to lack the belief in a God(s). That is it.

According to your simplistic view of what a belief system is, you might as well claim that "Female" is a belief system, because women work together for certain causes and seek some of the same changes in society. Is 'female' a belief system? Of course not, that's nonsense - and so is the claim that atheism is a belief system.

So again, could you point out this supposed "Agenda" that I have here?
edit on 5/7/15 by Ghost147 because: Link not working

edit on 5/7/15 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 05:30 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

It would be easier for me to accept it as "possibly beneficial" as I would with a herbal treatment if I wasn't already aware of studies involving the effectiveness of Prayer. The studies concluded that not only did praying not really help, but there was a statistical value that showed that praying for the sick may actually worsen their condition (Due to psychological reasons, so this wouldn't apply to the cat) Source

oh god sorry that made laugh so hard



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 05:58 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147





Darn, you sure got me beat. How ever will I understand right from wrong without a sacred text of some sort?



I never said you need a religious text. I don't believe people understand right and wrong because they've read the Bible....I believe people recognize right and wrong because God made all people in his image, and all people regardless of their beliefs recognize when something is not consistent with the character of God.




So are you saying that if somehow in the future (hypothetically), your religion were to be totally proven false, you would instantly start killing people, sexually assaulting people, stealing, vandalizing, and so on simply because you've "lost your moral guidance"?


Well first I don't think you have to be a Christian to get past that little issue. I just think you need some for of consciousness that transcends this material world and is the creator of life. That encompasses the vast majority of religions, but it doesn't encompass atheism.




How is it that I have not done any of those things without the secret key to morality that you possess?


As I said earlier, I don't think you need the book. I think you know right and wrong because it was instilled inside you me and every other human being on the planet. I've never understood why so many Churches spend most their time preaching how people should act. According to the Bible, we all know inside how we ought to act the question is whether you want to do what you ought to do or if you even care what you ought to do.




Also incorrect. I fully believe in ghosts, some people would even say Aliens are part of the supernatural, and I also believe in those.


If you fully believe in ghost then I am curious what are your beliefs about the afterlife and how are they consistent with the idea that life arose purely by natural causes? I don't think one could ever call aliens supernatural, as supernatural means it is something that is above or beyond the natural world, unless of course you think aliens are beings from another dimension rather than another area of this universe. Also I never said atheist couldn't believe in those things. I said atheist could not believe in supernatural deities, I didn't say atheist couldn't believe in something supernatural such as a Ghost or extra-dimensional aliens.





The ONLY things that is required to be considered an "Atheist" is to lack the belief in a God(s). That is it.


This is exactly what I said, and that is your belief system. You interpret the sensory data you receive thru that lens. For example, I believe in the God of the Bible so I believe the reinstatement of Israel in 1948 was a prophetic event being fulfilled. You would not interpret it as such as if you did you would no longer fall under the belief system of atheism.




According to your simplistic view of what a belief system is, you might as well claim that "Female" is a belief system, because women work together for certain causes and seek some of the same changes in society. Is 'female' a belief system?


Female is a gender. I think maybe you meant feminism, and I would consider that more of a political ideology rather than a belief system though with very extreme feminist it does become a belief system.




Of course not, that's nonsense - and so is the claim that atheism is a belief system.


Why do you have such an issue with someone telling you that your belief that a God(s) doesn't exist is a belief system?




So again, could you point out this supposed "Agenda" that I have here?


Sure the whole OP attempts to appeal to emotion(a logical fallacy) in order to try and persuade people that religious people cause harm to people because they pray. You don't present the information free of bias instead its loaded with your personal bias. The vast majority of Christians would have prayed and taken that cat to the vet at the same time, yet you present this as though its something the majority of religious people do.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 06:12 PM
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originally posted by: Ghost147

Doesn't really make you a good person to begin with if the only thing stopping you is your fear of a god or magical words in a book. How is it that I have not done any of those things without the secret key to morality that you possess?



Who said i/we were good persons to begin with

You have an anti religious agenda, your posts ring the same bell every time.

Read the title again and deny you are attacking the religious, less you consider atheists religious as well

"At what point should we step in and say "Stop being atheist..."


and I certainly dont think its a stretch to state atheism has become a religion. A common goal, churches, leaders and evangelists but I understand the counter argument so I will keep my opinion closed
edit on b2015Sun, 05 Jul 2015 18:21:40 -050073120150pm312015-07-05T18:21:40-05:00 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 07:27 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147

OP I'm pretty sure you made this up without realising
you were throwing you're whole gene pool under the bus.

A pusillaminous and ineffectual pretend friend to animals
and an atheist too!

edit on Rpm70515v42201500000031 by randyvs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:08 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I never said you need a religious text. I don't believe people understand right and wrong because they've read the Bible....I believe people recognize right and wrong because God made all people in his image, and all people regardless of their beliefs recognize when something is not consistent with the character of God.


If morals are an intrinsic part of all people, then your prior concept that Atheists are free to do as they wish because they have no moral obligations is false.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
If you fully believe in ghost then I am curious what are your beliefs about the afterlife and how are they consistent with the idea that life arose purely by natural causes? I don't think one could ever call aliens supernatural, as supernatural means it is something that is above or beyond the natural world, unless of course you think aliens are beings from another dimension rather than another area of this universe. Also I never said atheist couldn't believe in those things. I said atheist could not believe in supernatural deities, I didn't say atheist couldn't believe in something supernatural such as a Ghost or extra-dimensional aliens.


My mistake, I didn't see that you wrote "supernatural deities".



originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
This is exactly what I said, and that is your belief system. You interpret the sensory data you receive thru that lens. For example, I believe in the God of the Bible so I believe the reinstatement of Israel in 1948 was a prophetic event being fulfilled. You would not interpret it as such as if you did you would no longer fall under the belief system of atheism.


No, this is not how belief systems work. There is nothing else to being an atheist other than a lack of belief in gods. That does not change the perspective of anything, because there is no perspective to begin with. I think you're viewing it like it does change perspective only because you view things as divinely created, thus it would appear that we would have to change all aspects of everything and believe in certain things to answer questions that your religion already has answers for (creation of the universe/planets/life etc).

This concept is asserting there is some form of universal Atheist view of subjects like that. However, there isn't any written or unwritten commonality between one Atheist to another Atheist. Not all Atheists accept science as a useful tool to describe natural phenomenon. Not all atheists are anti-theist or anti-religion. Not all theists believe in ghosts or aliens or big foot. I can go on an on because there is nothing that Atheists are bound by to share common traits with other than the lack of belief in a god.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Female is a gender. I think maybe you meant feminism, and I would consider that more of a political ideology rather than a belief system though with very extreme feminist it does become a belief system.


No, I really did mean female. I don't think you realize the similarity between saying that Atheism is a belief system and Female is a belief system because of a few misconceptions you have of what you find Atheists to be/believe in.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Why do you have such an issue with someone telling you that your belief that a God(s) doesn't exist is a belief system?


It's not as if I'm offended or anything, I'm just showing you how the claim that "Atheism is a belief system" is inaccurate.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Sure the whole OP attempts to appeal to emotion(a logical fallacy) in order to try and persuade people that religious people cause harm to people because they pray.


I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is not even remotely close to my intention within this topic.

I've never stated that "religious people cause harm" (in fact I've clearly shown multiple times I'm not generalizing religious people), what I am stating is that "Religion, in an extreme form, and when used as a first-and-only line of healing or preventative measures, is not only extremely dangerous, but can cause terrible pain and suffering, despite good intentions".


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
You don't present the information free of bias instead its loaded with your personal bias.


Example?

Again, this is about a minority within religious individuals who put extreme religious beliefs above all other things. Even the majority of religious people here are saying how the individuals in the OP are acting irrational because they aren't even following what the bible says, and instead just waiting for god to do all the work. Which is the entire concept of the topic.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
The vast majority of Christians would have prayed and taken that cat to the vet at the same time, yet you present this as though its something the majority of religious people do.


Again, I'd like you to source that presentation of mine. I have never, nor do I now insist this is what most religious people are like.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:20 PM
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originally posted by: borntowatch
Who said i/we were good persons to begin with


It would seem pointless to bring up morals as if it's a sort of "gotcha, you don't have morals "Atheist!" " if the person or people bringing it up aren't good people to begin with.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
You have an anti religious agenda, your posts ring the same bell every time.


I have an anti-stupidity agenda. Religion in general is perfectly fine if it's an internal concept. This particular case is anything but internal. There are people in the OP whom are actively prolonging a beings suffering because strictly due to what they think is the best line of action, when everyone else (including most religious people here) agree isn't.

Want to bring the cat to the vet and pray? Go for it, I have no issues with it. If prayer does or does not have effect in that case it wouldn't matter at all.

If these people were not religious at all, and simply believed in energy-healing (or whatever else), my view on it would be identical.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
and I certainly dont think its a stretch to state atheism has become a religion. A common goal, churches, leaders and evangelists


Never got the memo for a "common goal", never been to an atheist church, never knew there were leaders or evangelists.

I completely agree that to set up a church is not only extremely inappropriate, but confusing and stupid to say the least.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
but I understand the counter argument so I will keep my opinion closed


I'm curious as to why you continue to reply to this topic then? You've already stated you were going to "keep your opinion closed" before.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:22 PM
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originally posted by: randyvs
a reply to: Ghost147

OP I'm pretty sure you made this up without realising
you were throwing you're whole gene pool under the bus.

A pusillaminous and ineffectual pretend friend to animals
and an atheist too!


Believe what you will, there are plenty of cases out there where this exact same thing has occurred to the people's children. Is it really that difficult to believe that there are extremely religious people out there whom would do these exact things?



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:30 PM
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Hard to believe such stupid people exist outside Kevin Bacon Footloose movie. It's animal cruelty, hope they get charged.

You can't tell people to have no religion, but it would be nice if there was none.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 10:32 PM
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a reply to: Ghost147




If morals are an intrinsic part of all people, then your prior concept that Atheists are free to do as they wish because they have no moral obligations is false.


The majority of atheist seem to lack the ability to see the world thru the eyes of people with other beliefs about the world. You see I have a passion for logic and philosophy. The truth cannot be inconsistent. The reason I made that statement is you cannot call yourself an atheist and believe in objective basis for moral obligations while remaining logically consistent. In order to be an atheist and have a logically consistent world view one must admit moral nihilism to be the truth about reality. In order to be a theist and remain logically consistent you must admit that standard of Good is rooted in the character of God and that is the truth about reality. Now seeing as how these views are contradictory they cannot both be true. Think about anytime anyone has done anything bad to you, and think about the moral experience you had. Did you feel like the person ought not have done that or did you feel like it was your opinion that the person ought not have done that? Was your experience objective or subjective? Every moral experience I have had whether I was the one being hurt or the one in the wrong the experience was objective.

I am also still curious if you fully believe in ghost then what are your beliefs about the afterlife and how are they consistent with the idea that life arose purely by natural causes?




No, this is not how belief systems work. There is nothing else to being an atheist other than a lack of belief in gods. That does not change the perspective of anything, because there is no perspective to begin with.


First I think we are in agreement that the only requirement for atheist is to lack belief in a deity, as we have both said it already. The only requirements to be a Christian is to accept your a sinner, and confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is lord and that he died and rose again for the sins of the world you don't have to read the Bible and you don't have to go to Church. Just because you only have one simple requirement for being an atheist doesn't mean it doesn't change your perspective of reality. I already gave you an example of how an atheist and christian would vary on their perspective of a specific event. I'll give you another, you say you believe in aliens, and you believe they are aliens because you believe there is no God and that there is no devil. I would say I believe what you call aliens to be nephilim. Another perspective we differ on solely because of the axioms we use when interpreting data. Don't you see that your lack of belief in a deity would change how you interpret the world around you and that my belief in a deity would leave a different chain of interpretations then the ones you would be open to?

Now lets look at the inconsistencies in the next portion of your reply:





This concept is asserting there is some form of universal Atheist view of subjects like that. However, there isn't any written or unwritten commonality between one Atheist to another Atheist.


You say this, but then right after you define the universal commonality of atheism:




there is nothing that Atheists are bound by to share common traits with other than the lack of belief in a god.


Also if an atheist is not a naturalist its very easy to show their ideologies to be inconsistent and therefore untrue. You see you spend plenty of time examining Christians for consistency but how often do you examine your own beliefs for logical consistency?




No, I really did mean female. I don't think you realize the similarity between saying that Atheism is a belief system and Female is a belief system because of a few misconceptions you have of what you find Atheists to be/believe in.


You said female and then defined feminism. Female is a gender not an ideology shared among people. Just to show you that you defined feminism but said female lets look at what you said, " you might as well claim that 'Female' is a belief system, because women work together for certain causes and seek some of the same changes in society." Lets also look at the definition of feminism and female:

female-(1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that bears young or produces eggs (2) : pistillate
(1) : composed of members of the female sex (2) : characteristic of girls or women
2
: having some quality (as gentleness) associated with the female sex
3
: designed with a hollow or groove into which a corresponding male part fits



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 11:33 PM
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originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
The majority of atheist seem to lack the ability to see the world thru the eyes of people with other beliefs about the world.


I find that very unlikely to be true, considering most atheists were once theists themselves. Link




originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
In order to be an atheist and have a logically consistent world view one must admit moral nihilism to be the truth about reality. In order to be a theist and remain logically consistent you must admit that standard of Good is rooted in the character of God and that is the truth about reality.


I see what you're trying to get out, however, there are specific issues within your attempt to show similarities. On one hand, you have an actual belief system which teaches specific things (such as morality and where it comes from), where as on the other hand, there is no globally accepted view.

Moral Nihilism is simply a single view on morality. People are free to agree or disagree with it as it is not the only option outside of a god-given morality.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I am also still curious if you fully believe in ghost then what are your beliefs about the afterlife and how are they consistent with the idea that life arose purely by natural causes?


Yes, sorry, I forgot to elaborate when you first asked. On the topic of ghosts, I don't really view it as totally supernatural. From a personal perspective, there isn't enough evidence to really prove anything is this or that when it comes to Ghosts. For all we know it is a natural occurrence, and is simply the product of brain waves materializing to some degree (or any other explanation you can think of).

As I said, there isn't enough proof to go on to really describe or study the phenomenon as closely or scientifically as we would like. The only reason I believe in them is through personal experience, and like you, I too have a passion for logic, and cannot find any other external factors to explain what I have experienced.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
I'll give you another, you say you believe in aliens, and you believe they are aliens because you believe there is no God and that there is no devil. I would say I believe what you call aliens to be nephilim. Another perspective we differ on solely because of the axioms we use when interpreting data. Don't you see that your lack of belief in a deity would change how you interpret the world around you and that my belief in a deity would leave a different chain of interpretations then the ones you would be open to?


Again, I see how you're trying to compare the two, but again, there is still an issue with it. On one end you have a specific view where everything is absolutely given as truth and the only possible way it could have happened (Christianity through scripture). On the Atheist side there is an infinite amount of reasoning and beliefs that could be applied to any subject because Atheism is not a belief system, there is freedom of belief.

As for why you believe I believe in aliens, it is not because i do not believe in god or the devil, those values are non existent because I don't believe they exist at all. It is the same reason I don't attribute fictional stories to reality and base my opinions on reality around that fictional writing. People can write about Aliens all they want, or how they dont exist in a fiction-based setting, but they don't alter my perspective because those writings exist.

The reason I believe extraterrestrial life exists is simply due to probability. There Christians and other religious people who also believe in extraterrestrial life, despite their faith, after all.



originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Now lets look at the inconsistencies in the next portion of your reply:




This concept is asserting there is some form of universal Atheist view of subjects like that. However, there isn't any written or unwritten commonality between one Atheist to another Atheist.


You say this, but then right after you define the universal commonality of atheism



there is nothing that Atheists are bound by to share common traits with other than the lack of belief in a god.




I can't tell if you're being cheeky or not with your first example. I was clearly referring to everything else other than the lack of belief in gods.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
Also if an atheist is not a naturalist its very easy to show their ideologies to be inconsistent and therefore untrue. You see you spend plenty of time examining Christians for consistency but how often do you examine your own beliefs for logical consistency?


Not sure how many times I need to explain that there is no set beliefs in atheism? There for there is no inconsistencies.

If there is inconsistencies in an individuals logic, and that person happens to be an atheist, then it is a logical inconsistency with that individual alone, not atheism in general, because atheism doesn't have set rules, does not have a world view, and is not a belief system, heck, it's not even an ISM to begin with.


originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
You said female and then defined feminism. Female is a gender not an ideology shared among people. Just to show you that you defined feminism but said female lets look at what you said, " you might as well claim that 'Female' is a belief system, because women work together for certain causes and seek some of the same changes in society." Lets also look at the definition of feminism and female:


Clearly you did not understand the analogy I posted. I completely realize female is a gender. Can we please move on? you simply do not get it because you cannot fathom that Atheism is not a belief system.



originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
How exactly have you done that? All you have done is make a claim. You haven't explained why that claim is correct, and I have given you plenty of examples to explain to you why it is a belief system.


It's not that I haven't explained it, it's that you haven't accepted the explanation, or apparently even read them.



originally posted by: ServantOfTheLamb
a reply to: Ghost147
And do the actions of these select few individuals have any weight on the validity of the claims of their religions?


That depends on if their faith-healing worked. it didn't so that should answer your question. I've posted a link earlier about a number of studies that focused on prayer as a form of healing, the conclusion is that it does not work and is in fact harmful at times. Does that then make there religion false? No, of course not.

.........(continued in next post)


edit on 5/7/15 by Ghost147 because: (no reason given)



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