Fast food is an easy job everyone can do...

a reply to: MOMof3

Let me tell you who you blame:

Back in the 90's doctors found that it was very, very easy to defraud medicare. Over inflated pricing, double/fraudulent billing, etc. Hospitals and nursing homes would do the same. So Uncle Sam shut off the easy pork, and put in all manner of new billing regulations and pricing caps. Shortly thereafter, many nursing homes went under. They were all bought up by the corporations that had the breadth of revenue to be able to survive the change in business models.

The nursing home and home health environment we see today is a result of that. The small, family owned nursing homes (yes, there were a bunch, at least in this area) all died off and were bought up. In my community, this ended up costing CNA's about 75 cents an hour in pay, as the job went back to minimum wage. Back in the 90's, $8/hr was a decent pay rate here all things considered.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

I was a CNA in the 90's and early 2000's. I worked for a corporation called Sun Health at the time. Yeah, they whined about the cuts. And we long time CNA's took our .05 cent yearly raises and the hiring of illegal workers. Until we found out management was getting "bonuses" in the thousands of dollars. We tried to unionize but the mexicans would not go on along and they were the majority of workers. I don't blame the mexicans or the CNA's for the greed of doctors and management.

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

correct.
jobs that require more skill pay more. unusually dangerous jobs will usually pay more.

i think a lot of it is the attitude. look at some of the comments in here.

management sees attitudes like that all the time so why would they pay those people prime wages for a job that requires no skill?

people in here bitching about how their manager didnt work or bitching cause they had to clean so they quit after 3 days.
who wants to deal with employees like that?

i remember when i was just entering the job force, there would be signs up saying 'if you have time to lean you have time to clean'.

they always wanted you to be busy. pick up a broom. wipe a table down.

but, the employees bitch and dont want to do it. their job is to flip burgers. if no burgers need flipped they want to go smoke or stand there and talk. you tell them to do something else and they cop an attitude.

you know it happens and i know it happens.

i dont see how someone can justify saying a job should pay 15 an hour when you can literally do that job with no experience and 5 minutes of training.

a reply to: Mugly

I think everyone agrees that a job that requires more skill demands higher pay. That isn't the issue.

I'm sure we have all heard the phrase "I don't even get out of bed for less than...".

Well, even the least skilled worker has an amount that they won't get out of bed for.

Workers demanding more and owners complaining that you can't get blood from a rock is just good old fashion haggling.

originally posted by: Mugly
a reply to: Xtrozero

but did you have to do BS stuff like clean

Not in the factory, but when I was low rank in the military I was a good jet engine mech and I would get done with my task quickly to be rewarded with a mop and bucket, broom or paint brush...I guess someone had to do it....

Things are not going to improve. Like many have already said, if you don't learn skills that have value and separate you from the others than you will receive minimum wage.

It is unfortunate that many middle class jobs have disappeared and now there are more "losers" in this capitalist system. At the end of the day you either accept those facts and try harder knowing what is at stake or you give up.

I have worked over 20 jobs and I am not 30 years old. I will say currently the worst industry in my area is automotive manufacturing. It pays minimum wage on a temporary basis. These jobs are strenuous on the body and torture on the mind. 10 years ago these jobs payed 25+$/hr, full benefits, and full pension.

originally posted by: ADUB77
Things are not going to improve. Like many have already said, if you don't learn skills that have value and separate you from the others than you will receive minimum wage.

It is unfortunate that many middle class jobs have disappeared and now there are more "losers" in this capitalist system. At the end of the day you either accept those facts and try harder knowing what is at stake or you give up.

I have worked over 20 jobs and I am not 30 years old. I will say currently the worst industry in my area is automotive manufacturing. It pays minimum wage on a temporary basis. These jobs are strenuous on the body and torture on the mind. 10 years ago these jobs payed 25+$/hr, full benefits, and full pension.

The facts are that 30% of all adult jobs are near minimum wage. Those jobs don't just disappear. That means that 30% of American situations will be near poverty level, no matter what. The system is designed so that there MUST BE millions of such people. If you end up outside of this 30%, that just puts someone else into the 30%. So 'work harder,' and all such platitudes, are meaningless.

I am still reading the thread, it's quite lengthy so I apologize if this point has already been made.

To me, the inherent problem with low skill jobs is that they are what is available. I know its been pointed out in the thread that these jobs require little training to become functional. Therefore, they don't pay much, and in our economy that is how it works. However, they are available to people who cannot afford the time, money, effort due to life circumstances usually far out of their control. I hardly think a teenage mother should be doomed for her choices. Society needs to recognize its own ills and examine the results of stigmas placed on individuals because of their past circumstance that is largely out of their hands and firmly in the grip of society.

Low-skilled jobs come easily, but require a lot of mental effort to keep. As the OP stated, being treated like a second class citizen is ridiculous, and to consider these jobs "Teenager" jobs is the same. We live in a society where what you do to earn money happens to be of main concern to most folks, and with that comes what you are paid to do what you do. This is a changeable attitude, in my opinion, and only time and effort from those being affected by it will change the way they are treated and viewed. Its a tough road, undoubtedly. Not everyone can be a rocket scientist, and if we could, we would quickly run out of jobs pertaining to rocket science.


As a personal example, from my experience, a lot of people simply do not want to work construction, which is what I do to pay my bills. Its hard, dangerous and the pay is low until you gain the skills that are required to be a tradesman. We do have jobs available. My trade in the area I live specifically is looking for new recruits. However, as I said, the job is hard and dangerous first and foremost, which makes it hard to attract people even if the starting pay were better.

It seems to me that most people would like to earn a living in a safe and comfortable atmosphere, which is entirely my opinion based on what I've encountered. The fact of the matter of higher level employment being difficult to "waltz into" is so many people have gone to college and flooded the job market and created a great deal of competition for these kinds of "middle-management" jobs.

To the defense of these folks who want a "cushy" (comparatively) job as opposed to something like construction: They have been led to believe that construction workers are not worth their pay, uneducated and largely idiots who only know how to pound nails or connect pipe or knock tin. This is the fault of schools (public, private, K-12 and secondary) downplaying the importance of skilled trades / labor and parents wanting to brag about their precious snow-flake landing a sweet job with their $30k communications degree.

STEM degrees are on the rise, but are not rising quickly enough. Again, it almost seems as if a promise of easy employment is given to those who want easy jobs. STEM degrees are difficult to achieve and the careers may pay well (certain fields of engineering in mind) or not. STEM is of major importance to a modern society, yet, those who have the faculties for these jobs are often left behind due to their own fears and the reality that these degrees are difficult to achieve as well as difficult to get if you cannot up root and move across the country or simply do not want to live in the middle of nowhere, away from family and friends, in order to feel better about yourself and earn better pay.

This whole situation is one of the most frustrating subjects I've ever had to try to comprehend, personally. I am from the school of "hard work pays off", but a lot of people could never do what I've done physically or mentally in order to achieve what I have. Where are they to go? I've worked in food service (not fast food) and honestly it was a grueling ordeal that I still say does not pay enough for what is required of the employee. I was lucky enough to take away from it a good work ethic and complete lack of fear for hard work. Some people can't do that, and I refuse to feel that I am above them for this because that is inherently a problem in our society which creates a great deal of misery and problems such as the attitude that the fast-food workers don't deserve a living wage.

In my opinion, a living wage should be required for all jobs no matter the skill required. We already pay for the working poor to eat and I am not upset about the fact that I pay, but that they have full-time jobs and do not live beyond their means - for the most part - and yet we still must subsidize their basic lives in order for corporations to rake more massive profits.


I am proud of what I've done and the hard work I've put into it, but I am not proud that my fellow tradesmen feel this way about our 21st century quagmire of the working poor. I don't know what the true answer is, but I do know that blaming and shaming them is completely backwards, because I and a lot of others realize that the problem lies in society first, and we have to work to change the "profit above all" and "greed is good" attitudes in order to achieve a level field.

originally posted by: Puppylove


The worst jobs were the fast food, your position is precarious, your worth is next to none, you need to react to a constantly changing atmosphere, you need to know multiple drastically different positions, your schedule is all over the place, you're pushed to rush, rush, rush, while trying to work around others, and react to constantly changing orders.

That's because you are expendable. If you can't handle it then they can easily find a high schooler to take your place because it is menial labor that almost anyone can do. McDonalds doesn't need to offer you steady hours with high pay and great benefits because there is somebody who will do your job without being offered those things.

a reply to: onequestion

Class awareness and solidarity is a huge problem right now. We've been turned against ourselves with the notion of "I've got mine, screw you!" as you highlight with your comment. My last post in this thread was very TL;DR and I was a wee buzzed when I typed it out. I feel a need to make a salient point, thanks for lending me the opportunity. I can't star your comments in this thread enough!

I have never worked at a fast food place but I love mcnuggets. I know they bad for me but they good and its awesome when I go and get some every once in a while. Fast food workers make people happy. Just consume fast food responsibly. I am mentally ill so I don't work, but don't take a handout from the government cause my parents pretty much give me a silver spoon for doing minor work on our farm. Life is terrible. To exist is bad. Sleep is good, non existence is heaven. I need to strength to go to sleep forever.

I work construction as well. I had one employer who'd give nearly anyone a chance. But most people are not worth a darn, and quit or were fired after a few months.
The work is out there, most just want a cushy office job where they work 40 hours but do about 10 hours of actual work.

No one forced these people to apply at the fat food place, plus many will get .gov assistance for such a low wage.
. fast food keeps going up in price while restaurants seem to be staying the same. I now can get the same meal for the same price at a sit down, and it is actual food. There is no way they will be able to compete at 15 per hour.

Lastly when one goes to the store look at a good portion of the food and textiles, some poor farmer and poor laborer made those at a wage not even comparable to min wage.

originally posted by: jellyrev
I work construction as well. I had one employer who'd give nearly anyone a chance. But most people are not worth a darn, and quit or were fired after a few months.
The work is out there, most just want a cushy office job where they work 40 hours but do about 10 hours of actual work.

I completely agree with you here. However, as I said above, not all people can do construction, and many who could have been dissuaded by dis-information so others can profit, namely colleges.

No one forced these people to apply at the fat food place, plus many will get .gov assistance for such a low wage.

This attitude is a major the problem we face today in our society. The idea that people aren't relegated to this being their pinnacle is completely incorrect. There are people who are so locked into a cycle of violence and poverty in this country that flipping burgers, to them, is better than dying in the street selling drugs, even if that means they'll have more money than the person that works an honest job.
As to the second part, workers should not receive government assistance for working a full time job and profiting a major corporation, even if it is a franchise, which is a ponzi scheme at worst and a "get rich quick at the expense of others" at best. The fact that the government, via taxes on the upper working and middle classes, helps support workers of any class/level is supremely backwards.

fast food keeps going up in price while restaurants seem to be staying the same. I now can get the same meal for the same price at a sit down, and it is actual food. There is no way they will be able to compete at 15 per hour.

Then they should not compete if they can't pay their employees a living wage and profit the company. Good riddance, I say.

Lastly when one goes to the store look at a good portion of the food and textiles, some poor farmer and poor laborer made those at a wage not even comparable to min wage.

A good point, but not as positive as it sounds. The demand for cheap goods is what drives horrid conditions in over seas or neighboring countries. We create that world as much as the corporations by our demand for it. The middle, working and poor classes of America need to band together in a force of solidarity to show the world that we do not want anyone who benefits our lives suffering because of it.

I think these fastfood companies pay so low simply because they can get away with it.
I always view the labour market as in : "supply and demand".
eg.If there are not enough doctors and they are in high demand then they can usually haggle more pay from their employer whereas if you work in mcd's then you are really no loss to them as there is a large supply of labour ready and waiting to step into your shoes if you move on.
Unfortunately the way the Economy works is in favour of the Capitalist which has lead to what I call the
RACE TO THE BOTTOM.
If we had no minimum wage I believe companies would be paying much,much less because any corporation is only interested in making a profit regardless of the costs to society or the environment.
I entirely blame Government for the situation in the western world today because they should have kept the big businesses and corporations on a very tight leash,as it is now... corporations pretty much get away with anything and have probably bought the Government.
The argument about skilled labour vs unskilled is not as black and white as people think either imo.
like I say it's about profit,supply and demand.
Not very many businesses care about their employees welfare etc.
They exist to make profit pure and simple.
But I do obviously believe that the more skills you can obtain the more chance you will have of getting a job.

a reply to: defcon25

Bravo! The "Race to the Bottom" notion is very accurate to describe our current state of affairs. The profit motive is also an extremely destructive force in general, with only rare examples, like diamonds, shining among the muck of the conditions of the poor throughout the world.

I'd add that the idea of money being power, instead of a simple and fair means to an end (trade) is completely misguided and fueled by greed. This is what has led to our government being bought off; money is of such a huge importance to human societies that it needs to be leashed, much like you suggest that the corporations must be leashed or else corruption runs rampant. The old "Golden Rule" as in "The one with the gold makes the rule" is archaic and backwards. Government needs to be civil service, and in order for it to just be that, the nexus of media, business and government needs to be shattered. Among other things, which others will, no doubt, point out.

That's because you are expendable. If you can't handle it then they can easily find a high schooler to take your place because it is menial labor that almost anyone can do. McDonalds doesn't need to offer you steady hours with high pay and great benefits because there is somebody who will do your job without being offered those things.

This is correct and the market determines that as it should. The problem with people who want a "Living Wage" is that their living wage will effect the entire economy and their 15.00 wont cut it anymore and they will demand 20.00 an hour. It will be a never-ending process of raising wages and goods all at once. These jobs aren't meant to be careers, they are meant for teenagers to gain work experience and they provide that perfectly fine. If you think your job should be paying you a livable wage, maybe it isn't the employer that is the problem, maybe its that you aren't doing what you could be in life.

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

Why are jobs meant for someone? How does the economy determine that people of a certain age group should fill these jobs with the intent to learn something and be paid next to nothing for it? How is this so?

To me, it seems like it is an implanted idea for businesses to profit greatly off of people. I am not saying that a business shouldn't profit, but when it profits from outright exploitation of a certain groups circumstance, isn't that, well, bad business? Why should someone grow fat off of anyone else? How is this in any way fair?

And before the obvious retort that life isn't fair, think about this: If we base our entire existence in a society on this idea, then we will always be in the world of haves and have-nots, and it will inevitably fall into an aristocratic nightmare where people will always view themselves above others, when in the cold hard reality of the universe, we are all equally worthless. We create the misery as a society, the individual rarely creates their own misery.

How can we ever hope to grow as a specie of individuals who operate the best as a society when there will always be the down-trodden, and those who step upon them? Is this necessary? I don't believe so, and the simple fact of human greed and want to be above the next is the problem.

We are all being slowly digested in an amoral universe; what makes others so much more special that to decrease their own misery, they increase the misery of others? We will all die, and those riches do not carry with us, as much as many would hope that they do.

I believe humans are simply clever apes, yet we can envision ourselves as better than that. Law of the jungle is fine when we're in the jungle, but we're not unless we bring those laws into our current situation. These attitudes delude us and harm us and happen to be the existential threat of our times.

originally posted by: OrdoAdChao
a reply to: AbstractDreamz

Why are jobs meant for someone?
Because the market determined it so.

How does the economy determine that people of a certain age group should fill these jobs with the intent to learn something and be paid next to nothing for it? How is this so?
Again, market forces. If the job had any high level of skill, it wouldnt have the turnover rate or the low wages.

To me, it seems like it is an implanted idea for businesses to profit greatly off of people. I am not saying that a business shouldn't profit, but when it profits from outright exploitation of a certain groups circumstance, isn't that, well, bad business? Why should someone grow fat off of anyone else? How is this in any way fair?
You do realize these fast food joints are franchisees correct, these aren't corporate owned? These guys don't make what you think they do and they surely couldn't hire the same amount of employees at the perceived 15.00 living wage.

And before the obvious retort that life isn't fair, think about this: If we base our entire existence in a society on this idea, then we will always be in the world of haves and have-nots, and it will inevitably fall into an aristocratic nightmare where people will always view themselves above others, when in the cold hard reality of the universe, we are all equally worthless. We create the misery as a society, the individual rarely creates their own misery.
I disagree with you here, the individual often creates their own misery. Only to pass off blame onto others for their own terrible choices. The cold hard reality of life is that the world is full of haves and have-nots, not everyone would be successful, but they may be successful in their family which is a far greater accomplishment than monetary value.

How can we ever hope to grow as a specie of individuals who operate the best as a society when there will always be the down-trodden, and those who step upon them? Is this necessary? I don't believe so, and the simple fact of human greed and want to be above the next is the problem.
Necessary, no...Inevitable, yes.

We are all being slowly digested in an amoral universe; what makes others so much more special that to decrease their own misery, they increase the misery of others? We will all die, and those riches do not carry with us, as much as many would hope that they do. Misery is a mindset, Ive known rich who have died unhappy and poor who have died happy.

I believe humans are simply clever apes, yet we can envision ourselves as better than that. Law of the jungle is fine when we're in the jungle, but we're not unless we bring those laws into our current situation. These attitudes delude us and harm us and happen to be the existential threat of our times.
The existential threat of our time is that we have far to many people who want to believe in some Utopian culture and human decency that will never exist, period. Not trying to be cruel, but it just won't happen.

So the market dictates human fate? A human construct which is imposed on all who dare to be born in a certain locale is what determines the life and conditions of the humans in it. The human society which upholds and creates the market has no power of it. The notion of a 'free-market' has truly become a religion.

Why is a business, or the owner of a business, more important than those who work for it? I am sure it has something to do with the free-market religion.

The only cold hard reality is that humans create potential for misery for themselves as a group. There is no 'misery' in the universe, it is a human experience created by humans as a whole. How else could it exist?

I promise you that there is no cosmic rule outside of human society, which is an abstract concept in the universe, that dictates that it is inevitable that humans will tromp over one another like rats on a sinking ship. It is a human behavior that can change.

So the poor should just deal with the abnormal amount of misery they face because a small amount of the rich may be miserable as well? I doubt the misery is equivocal.

Mmmmm utopia, what a concept. People treating each other with respect and recognizing that we're all equally doomed in a universe which really doesn't care about us. We can only care about us, and we can only help us - if that is an unachievable Utopian ideal the unachievable is better than what is currently being achieved: Where the few prosper at the expense of the many.

a reply to: AbstractDreamz

So reading this, I have determined that there is no room in the minds of businessman regarding human dignity and respect. No room in the heart of the market for "do unto others as you would want to be treated". I don't think I want that system to continue. Or send that mentality over to the Middle East countries, that is what they are all about. Socialism is starting to sound better and better.