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The REALITY of Marriage Equality

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posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:50 PM
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a reply to: Lightworth

Umm that didn't make a lot of sense.




posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:53 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

I've answered all those questions multiple times in our conversation, but I'll give you the short version again:

1

Disagreement is having two or more different understandings on the same issue.

Bigotry is unfairly categorizing a whole group of people in negative ways, while holding yourself in a positive light.

2

Nope.

3

Until you repeated the bigoted statements that have been pointed out to you time and time again, I didn't even call you a bigot. I haven't stereotyped you at all. You've made your prejudices against gay people very clear on your own.


edit on 21Sun, 05 Jul 2015 21:53:59 -050015p092015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 09:59 PM
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originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: Lightworth

Umm that didn't make a lot of sense.




How so? Perhaps it's more that you disagree with gay marriage specifically rather than homosexuality in general? Not much difference that I can tell. Otherwise it's plain enough English. It's about truth/proof -- or at least desire for it -- over mere opinion. Why should gays and lesbians (and bisexuals) be considered less than equally human with equal rights, given no verifiably factual reason to consider them otherwise?



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 10:20 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

I see disagreement as a difference of opinion (actual definition). I see bigotry as extreme intolerance (actual definition). Those are two different things to me.

I do not see anything in the definition of bigotry that involves placing ones self above others or holding yourself in a more positive light. That is not attributable to bigotry. Bigotry is extreme intolerance, the inability to accept, a denial of an entire group of people based on a particular characteristic of that group.

The OP lumped me, and everyone else who disagrees to any degree with gay marriage, into the category of bigots. That is what I objected to, not gay marriage. I do not want to prevent or eliminate gay marriage and will take no action that would lead to that end. And I don't want to be lumped in and stereotyped with people who would.

If it is impossible to disagree with a homosexual about gay marriage without being a bigot, then is it also not possible for a homosexual to disagree with a straight person about gay marriage without being a bigot? The two are mirror images of each other. I am sure you find that very unpleasant, but it is the truth. You cant have one without the other.

That is extremism, the very definition of bigotry.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 10:25 PM
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a reply to: Lightworth

I never said they should. All I wanted was to not be lumped in with and stereotyped as a bigot because I disagree with gay marriage. I am not trying to prevent it or eliminate it and I don't want to be lumped in with people who would.

As for demands of proof, that often comes down to who shouts "prove it" first. I don't think there is proof for everything that is true. What if God is real and exists in heaven right now? How would that fit in to your demand for absolute truth?



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 10:43 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

I finally realized something I'd missed to this moment about you: you simply cannot stand to be wrong.

Your comments "actual definition" after your personal definitions (newsflash, the words are more complex in their meanings than the two to three words you're mentioning here) is what gave it away.

You're brittle and inflexible and "always right." Even when you're admitting fallibility, you follow up in the next line with the equivalent of "but I'm right about this."

LOL.

What is the personal quality that would allow a person "to deny an entire group of people based on a particular characteristic of that group?" That's right, there has to be a basic understanding that you (the bigot) are "right" or "better" and whatever group you're judging is "wrong" or "worse." To truly consider yourself equal to a group would NOT let you look down on the other group. Its really not that difficult to understand.

Nope, as I showed you, you didn't come out against marriage equality in your OP; you stated that homosexuals are "wrong." That's a bigoted statement. It doesn't involve agreement, disagreement, or any of the other items you keep wanting to focus on.

There you go again. You keep repeating the same statement, when I myself have corrected you over and over and over again.

You're not a bigot because you don't like same-sex marriage; you're a bigot because you classify a whole group of millions of people as "wrong, sinful, abnormal, unnatural, perverse, warped" and all the other things you've said about homosexuals.

And again I'll tell you: I do not care what you think about marriage equality. It does not matter.

You keep repeating the same construction over and over and over to make your point, and you're just incorrect. I know you LITERALLY cannot accept it, but you're mistaken.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 11:00 PM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

You couldn't be more wrong about this entire post. Those are not my personal definitions, they are straight from freedictionary.com.

I don't have to be right. I just don't admit being wrong when I am not.

I am sorry you believe anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot. I know I will not change your opinion.

I hope you realize one thing though. When you call everyone a bigot, you take credibility from yourself and trivialize the thoughts and actions of people who truly are bigots. Its like playing the race card but for gay people. If you fall back on the bigot card every time someone disagrees with you, you send a mixed message about yourself and trivialize the real bigots which only helps them in the long run.

Stop calling everyone a bigot just because they feel differently about something than you do. Save that word for the people who really are extremists. Save that word for the people who throw rocks at you, burn your house down, beat you up or worse. Those are bigots. If you don't understand that, then you live in a world full of bigots. That must suck pretty bad. Kind of like a self-imposed prison. My world has some bigots, but most people are pretty decent, even if they don't always agree on everything.

Have a nice life. I hope you learn enough tolerance to parole yourself some day.



posted on Jul, 5 2015 @ 11:34 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

Your first line proves I'm completely correct.

Do you think that freedictionary.com is the only dictionary and the only accepted definitions? Yes, I'm sure you do.

I've told you time after time that I don't believe that "anyone who disagrees with me is a bigot."

I've told you what a bigot is.

I've told you what about your posts is bigoted. You're wrong.

I've quoted your own posts back to you and shown you exactly where your bigoted statements are.

I don't call everyone a bigot; you're wrong.

Your can't stop yourself from making bigoted statements; you're not a bigot because you disagree with me.

I don't live in a world of bigots, thankfully, and less everyday. You, however, keep demonstrating that your position is bigoted.

I'm very tolerant. I don't want anything bad for you. I accept you as you are.


edit on 23Sun, 05 Jul 2015 23:44:21 -050015p112015766 by Gryphon66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 12:27 AM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

I think the Reality of Marriage Equality is that Love Wins.. i hope you would admit that even if your religion tells you that Same-Sex Marriage is wrong, Equality and Love is the right path to go...

i don't think you ever answered me Vroomfondel if you believe that GLBTQ+ should be a federally protected class?



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 05:14 AM
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originally posted by: Vroomfondel
a reply to: Lightworth

I never said they should. All I wanted was to not be lumped in with and stereotyped as a bigot because I disagree with gay marriage. I am not trying to prevent it or eliminate it and I don't want to be lumped in with people who would.

As for demands of proof, that often comes down to who shouts "prove it" first. I don't think there is proof for everything that is true. What if God is real and exists in heaven right now? How would that fit in to your demand for absolute truth?



You "never said they should" (be considered anything less than equally human with equal rights), yet the right to the legal benefits of marriage doesn't register with you as part of EQUAL rights. That's just double-speak, trying to have it both ways. It won't work with me and everyone else -- particularly Gryphon66 -- who has been trying to tell you the same thing. However, I hope you're being honest at least about not wanting to eliminate marriage equality; in that I can see and respect a certain amount of fairness. Thankfully you don't come off as a most hardcore militant.

What if God exists? Well, what if today I will acquire a pink unicorn that poops money? Don't get me wrong; I'm agnostic, not atheist. I just don't consider hypotheticals equal to givens/the proven. In fact, I'm convinced the primary reason why humanity hasn't made it any farther along than it has is because FAR too many people, one, refer to a Supreme Being in the same (or similar enough) way of a factual/proved existence, and two, claim to have "knowledge" of what said Being (if existing) wants and/or how He/She/It operates. If enough people could get past that and, frankly, just GROW UP, there's no telling how amazingly far we could advance.



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 08:08 AM
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a reply to: Lightworth

Its not double-speak. Please try to understand this. I disagree with gay marriage. However, I will not try to eliminate it, stop it, interfere with it, prevent it, or deny it. I simply disagree with it. I disagree with base jumping too. I am not a base jumping bigot. I do not believe I am better than base jumpers. I do not believe base jumpers are less than human. I have told a base jumper to his face that I thought what he did was crazy and there was a reason it was not legal in most places. He said, "Oh well". He didn't call me names or insist I see it his way and abandon my opinion, let alone my religious beliefs. He did not automatically lump me in with anyone else, cowards, control freaks, whatever group he could have chosen. We were BOTH tolerant of each others opinion without agreeing.

Its not because I think gay people are beneath me, or should not be equal. That is other people asserting a false perception onto me. I believe the holy vow of matrimony is something very special and very important. Can it be called something else without automatically being called wrong? How about legally wed? That can have all the same legal advantages of marriage but does not involve holy vows, which it seems most LGBT do not believe in anyway. Common-law marriage has legal advantages over people who are just dating or living together. Take that farther and make it the same as married but without the holy vows. Would that be acceptable?

Oh, I think you missed the point about the question what if God exists. The point was, what if God exists and is in heaven right now. How would you prove it? If he exists than that is the truth, yet it cant be proven. At least not in this lifetime. The hard line demand for absolute proof is a difficult position to maintain. Consider Schroodingers cat. In proving one thing, you are forever uncertain about something else - that was also true at that moment.


edit on 6-7-2015 by Vroomfondel because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 08:18 AM
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a reply to: Darth_Prime

Honestly, I thought it already was. I don't have a problem with that. People shouldn't be discriminated against for any reason. Making it law, a legal right, is fine but you have to make it fair and equally enforceable for everyone. What about employers who discriminate against overweight people? Some of them have medical conditions that cause obesity. Is it fair for employers to not hire them or pay them less? (that has been proven in the workplace) How do you tell them they don't deserve protection but gay people do?



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 08:37 AM
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a reply to: Gryphon66

Ok...its official. You are in denial.



Do you think that freedictionary.com is the only dictionary and the only accepted definitions? Yes, I'm sure you do.

First they were 'my definitions' and that wasn't good enough. Then they were from freedictionary.com, but that is only 'one' dictionary and that's not good enough. It will never be good enough until it agrees with you. Bigot.



I've told you time after time that I don't believe that "anyone who disagrees with me is a bigot."

Liar. You also said "No one can disagree with a homosexual about gay marriage and not be a bigot".



I've told you what a bigot is.

Liar. No. You told me what you 'think' a bigot is. Even when shown the definition of a bigot that proves you are wrong you then deny the accuracy of the dictionary. I use freedictionary.com because it shows ALL the definitions, not just the preferred. And guess what? They are all correct. That's right. Even the ones you refuse to acknowledge.



I'm very tolerant. I don't want anything bad for you. I accept you as you are.

You are wrong. You are one of the mist intolerant people I have ever encountered.

You are in a self-imposed prison. And I believe you will stay there until there is no one left to cry for you. Only then will you move on to your next soap box prison and start being the victim again.

Bob Marley said it best: "Emancipate yourselves from anti-slavery." It is not slavery that keeps people down today. It is the inability to let it go.

You put yourself in prison because, dare I say it, you want to martyr yourself. That is why you are so vocal about it. You need people to see you fighting what, in your eyes, is the good fight. You need the affirmation of people knowing you are fighting 'for them'. You are nothing more than a bigoted intolerant publicity whore.

Have a nice life. I am sure you wont though. Your life is one long battle with anyone who does not give you the absolute 100% conformation you seek. You cant win that battle, but you will fight it until the day you die believing you can.



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 10:13 AM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

Because we are people like straight people..

Lets say at a Job, you can't get fired just for being Straight, but i could just for being Gay

at a store, you can't get denied service just because you're straight, but i could just because i'm Gay

Property, you can't get denied housing or property just because you're straight, i could just because i'm Gay

any other reason doesn't matter right now, just based on pure sexuality, lets say a Job doesn't allow workers to smoke

Straight Person who smokes "You can't smoke" Gay person who smokes "You're Gay"

see the problem?



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 02:10 PM
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a reply to: Darth_Prime

Those things shouldn't happen.

I have to admit though, I find myself wondering how all of those people know you are gay. Where I work I never discuss my sexuality. Only one person there ever met me wife. My personal life and my professional life are separate and I keep it that way intentionally. For all they know, I could be gay. I don't talk about it and they don't ask.

When my wife and I go out shopping we aren't constantly touching each other. We aren't always kissing. Not that there is never a public display of affection, but we don't make it a point to demonstrate it every time we walk out the door. The people walking by us at any given moment in the store don't know if we are married, siblings, friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. They don't ask and we don't tell them. Its none of their business. How does everyone know you are gay?

I understand that where company benefits like insurance are concerned there is an issue with having to tell the people where you work. I get that. It shouldn't be used against you. With obamacare now even that should not be much of an issue though. I know things are always more complicated than any conversation here could ever capture but part of me thinks there is some degree of solution in just keeping personal lives personal.

There will always be people who think something someone else is doing should not be allowed. I knew a woman who actually told me once that ugly people should not be allowed to get married or have children because the world would be a prettier place without them. I asked her who gets to decide what is ugly and what isn't. She answered me with a straight face, "The pretty people." (note: she wasn't one of them...)

I was just thinking about this in regards to my place of business. If I found out the guy next to me was gay it really wouldn't matter to me. On the other hand, if he started displaying the stereotypical television style over the top flamboyant finger snapping behavior and affectations (no idea if there is a name for that or not) I would find it very disturbing. As it stand now, he could be gay and I don't know it. That possibility never occurs to me and I don't need to think about it. His life is his business, not mine.

Without experiencing it, I don't think I will ever fully understand what it is like or how many ways it can happen, only that it is wrong. I am handicapped however and I have had my share of issues with that. But that is openly visible. I don't have to tell anyone and they don't have to wonder. Disclosure is not an option. I have had employers routinely compare me to non-handicapped people and complain that I am not more like them. Sorry. If I could be I would be, but that isn't an option for me. I just do the best I can and hope its good enough.



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 02:40 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

I agree those things shouldn't happen, but they do because we have no protections against it..


On the other hand, if he started displaying the stereotypical television style over the top flamboyant finger snapping behavior and affectations (no idea if there is a name for that or not) I would find it very disturbing.


Why would you find it disturbing? i mean depending on where you work and the professionalism required, but why Disturbing?



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 03:54 PM
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a reply to: Darth_Prime

I tried to picture him doing that and it just seemed so out of place. I don't know, but I know it would bother me. Of course, I wouldn't tell him what he can or cant do. But I would be uncomfortable with it.



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 08:35 PM
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There will always be people who think something someone else is doing should not be allowed. I knew a woman who actually told me once that ugly people should not be allowed to get married or have children because the world would be a prettier place without them.


If you believe gay people or "ugly" people or short people or old people or whoever should not get married, that is ok. There is freedom to have your own beliefs. The real problem happens when people try to turn their personal beliefs into Law to force their beliefs on others, like trying to ban pork or gay marriage.
edit on 6-7-2015 by arpgme because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 09:12 PM
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a reply to: arpgme

I did not agree with her, that was only an example of the kind of things she said. And what you said about when the belief starts to become law or forced on others I agree with entirely. That is kind of what I have ben saying here all along with great opposition. I may disagree with something, but I in way shape or form would ever try to stop it or prevent it or eliminate it. I can have my personal belief, whether it matches anyone else or not, and not feel I have to force anyone else to feel the same or do what I say.



posted on Jul, 6 2015 @ 09:43 PM
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a reply to: Vroomfondel

Hmmm... so you are Uncomfortable round Gay Men.. or at least 'Flamboyant' Gay men?




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