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OK Supreme Court: Ten Commandments Monument Must Be Removed From Capitol

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posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 09:59 AM
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originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
a reply to: TheSemiSkeptic

Yes, the treaty is a statement of governance, not culture.

The topic of this thread is governance, not culture (a government building, to be precise)

Obviously, you can feel free to discuss culture. I was just wanting to point out that culture was neither part of the topic of the thread, nor the post you were replying to.

My statement of, "America is absolutely not a Christian nation." is accurate, as evidenced by and in context to the Treaty of Tripoli.




If its not or wasn't at the time a christian nation then why did the founders give the church the same protection and status as the press?

This goes well beyond any sort of cultural influence alone.




posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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a reply to: Logarock



The only way one can argue for tossing out christian icons is to toss them all out.....otherwise you look like a bigot


That's my point. Toss them all out and let's find something better to talk about. All this symbolism and idiocy is a waste of our time.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:00 AM
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originally posted by: grandmakdw
Umm, last I checked it is illegal for state sponsored schools to teach religious history.


Then you checked incorrectly, or need to check again. I was taught ALL about Christian history in my European history class in college AND my world history class (which was really also just European history) in high school.


My daughter and sister are elementary school teachers,
not only are they forbidden from teaching religious history -
they are forbidden from putting up an easter or christmas symbols
at all in their classrooms. They are forbidden from singing any
and all traditional Christmas songs that have even the slightest
reference to religion.


Um... teaching religious history is not the same as putting up religious Christmas decorations or singing religious songs.


When I taught in univeristy
I would have been fired for even the slightest mention
of religion or religious tradition or religious history
when I taught marriage, parenting, or human development.


You really should learn the difference between promoting a religion and just teaching its history. You seem to have the two things conflated.


The only allowable place to teach Christian religious history
in public schools/university is
in a class specifically designated as a religous history course.


Negative. Again I was taught religious history in my secular history classes.


All other references subject the teacher/professor to censure or firing.


Yea... No. You really don't know the difference between pushing Christian values and iconography versus just teaching where Christianity came from.


It is illegal to reference, speak of, or have any symbol even slightly related to Christianity in any public school or University that I know of. Even Christmas trees are banned in many if not most public schools in the US.


Yes, because that isn't teaching the history of Christianity.


The elementary schools are allowed to celebrate
Valentines Day (which does have Christian orgins, I admit)
any Muslim holiday or reference to a Muslim holiday


Valentine's Day isn't a religious holiday even if a Saint was involved with it. It's a holiday invented by Hallmark. Muslim children are likely allowed to celebrate their holidays independently. I'm pretty sure the schools aren't putting up Muslim iconography on Muslim holidays though. So try again.


As far as I know even Dradle,Dradle is forbidden in elementary schools
as is all mention of Jewish history, except for the Holocaust.


Go relearn the difference between history and tradition. You can't teach religious DOGMA and TRADITION in schools. You can DAMN well teach the religion's history as you JUST proved by saying you are allowed to talk about the Holocaust. Seriously, learn the difference. You make yourself look uninformed and ignorant when you say things like you are.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: ~Lucidity

The American government rewriting the history of the American people is tedious, disgusting and embarrassing.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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a reply to: TheSemiSkeptic

There is a big difference from having "The Church of England" than having "England of The Church" if you get my meaning. Yes, England recognizes an official church but the country is not of the church...though it is pretty close! and IMO since they don't enforce all religious stuff as law it is really in name only



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock
If its not or wasn't at the time a christian nation then why did the founders give the church the same protection and status as the press?


Where does it say 'Church' in the Constitution? It says 'religion'.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:01 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock
They should dump the 501(c) for churches and churches should want to do it. Then fight on other grounds, which as been done before in court that the church shouldn't have to pay taxes, nor should the press it they are not engaging in commercial enterprise.


Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that churches don't have to pay taxes. It just says that you are free to practice your religion no matter what it is.


The church as been operating under this for so long their constitutional fighting skills have atrophied.


The church appears to still be QUITE good at fighting the Constitution. Why else did it take so long for gay marriage to FINALLY be legalized?


For example you cant shut a press down for not paying taxes when the are not engaged in advertisement or using the right of press to make money.


The press pays taxes though... As well as there are no stipulations in the Constitution saying that the press doesn't have to pay taxes either.


Cant have separation if the state is collecting taxes.


Why not? Collecting taxes is collecting taxes. I wasn't aware that it was part of the Christian religion to not pay taxes.



Its way more complicated than that. Church can argue that giving in church is part of the "free expression". State has no more right to their money and they do free speech or free exercise. The position here is constitutionally guarded.



No, it's pretty simple. There are no provisions in the Constitution saying that churches are exempt from taxes. There are PLENTY of provisions in the Constitution on the types of taxes Congress is allowed to impose though.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:02 AM
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originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
The American government rewriting the history of the American people is tedious, disgusting and embarrassing.


What was rewritten and how could possibly be embarrassed, you do not even live here.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:04 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: TheSemiSkeptic

originally posted by: RedParrotHead
a reply to: theabsolutetruth


The U.S.A. is not a Christian country. If so everyone would have to be Christian and there would be punishable laws against doing non-Christian things. And those barbaric punishments would be straight out of the Christian Bible...right? What should be the sentence for those found guilty of working on a Sunday? A fine, jail time, or death? That sounds pretty close to what ISIS wants/is making. Do you really want to live in that sort of place? I don't.



Not so. England IS an Angelican nation. Yet there is no punishment or fines for being Jewish or muslim or atheist.


Um... England is JUST as secular as the United States. In fact, I think they are more secular... That was a pretty terrible comparison you made.



England estabkished a national religion. The Church of England and the monarch is the head of the church (hence the title Defender of the Faith). So it is an Angelican nation.


Yes, established. Past tense. That isn't the case anymore. What do you still live in the 1600's or something?


To my knowledge the Church of England and the monarch being the head of that church has not been recinded.
By your logic I have no idea what country I live in because the United States of America was established in 1791 (the year the Constitution was ratified). So does that mean we are living in 1791?



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:04 AM
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If its not or wasn't at the time a christian nation then why did the founders give the church the same protection and status as the press?


All religion, all people. None were singled out. Part of freedom was allowing people to have some faith in whatever.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:05 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

The Christian right has behaved like this for awhile now. Can't have a Republican President? No legislation can be passed whatsoever.



Well heck the liberal left has been clear.....that until we get Christianity out of everywhere we cant truly have a government or a culture.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:05 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

The only religious icons that are sitting independent of other religious icons are Christian ones. All the others are grouped among a plethora of other religions' symbols. So your argument here falls flat.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: ScientificRailgun

The Christian right has behaved like this for awhile now. Can't have a Republican President? No legislation can be passed whatsoever.



Well heck the liberal left has been clear.....that until we get Christianity out of everywhere we cant truly have a government or a culture.


Is there something wrong with having a truly secular government or something?



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:06 AM
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originally posted by: Logarock
a reply to: Krazysh0t

There are some that want PC to go right into the church sanctuary. Get certain off the radio that talk about certain issues from a christian perspective.



www.breitbart.com...


ACLU: ‘WE CAN NO LONGER SUPPORT FEDERAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM LAW’



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: TheSemiSkeptic

Apparently I was wrong as was shown by Boymonkey, so I rescind that statement.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:07 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

Many concessions were made along the way. That is why its called "politics".

But the people who actually thought about our nation, crafted it, wrote its founding documents....they have been clear. Jefferson and Madison in particular.

America is not a Christian nation, despite the desire of its populace to enact mob rule and make it so.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:09 AM
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originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Logarock
They should dump the 501(c) for churches and churches should want to do it. Then fight on other grounds, which as been done before in court that the church shouldn't have to pay taxes, nor should the press it they are not engaging in commercial enterprise.


Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that churches don't have to pay taxes. It just says that you are free to practice your religion no matter what it is.


The church as been operating under this for so long their constitutional fighting skills have atrophied.


The church appears to still be QUITE good at fighting the Constitution. Why else did it take so long for gay marriage to FINALLY be legalized?


For example you cant shut a press down for not paying taxes when the are not engaged in advertisement or using the right of press to make money.


The press pays taxes though... As well as there are no stipulations in the Constitution saying that the press doesn't have to pay taxes either.


Cant have separation if the state is collecting taxes.


Why not? Collecting taxes is collecting taxes. I wasn't aware that it was part of the Christian religion to not pay taxes.



Its way more complicated than that. Church can argue that giving in church is part of the "free expression". State has no more right to their money and they do free speech or free exercise. The position here is constitutionally guarded.



No, it's pretty simple. There are no provisions in the Constitution saying that churches are exempt from taxes. There are PLENTY of provisions in the Constitution on the types of taxes Congress is allowed to impose though.



It is in the constitution and has been successfully argued that church money is part of the free exercise, protected under the 1st amendment.

Whats wrong is it become clear to some of you just what sort of position the 1st amendment gives the church? We are not talking about going to the pizza shop and paying sales tax on your order.

"whose going down with me to burn down Memories Pizza?"
edit on 1-7-2015 by Logarock because: n



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:09 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

The US government agreed to the Christian suggestion of putting IN GOD WE TRUST on US currency, as a means of showing it is a Christian nation and not heathen.

Now the US is attempting blacking out bits of it's history like it's in denial. From 'yes we will have Christianity on our currency' to 'omg a ten commandment statue, burn it'. Obviously that statue was okay when it first appeared and had been okay ever since but now it apparently is ''offensive''. It is just there like all the other religious symbols everywhere you look in the US.

It isn't embarrassing to me, it is to the US government though and perhaps to some it's citizens and it certainly isn't doing it any favours in standing up for itself to religious threats or in the eyes of the rest of the world that are protective of their culture and history.

It was also a REPLY, read things in context.
edit on 1-7-2015 by theabsolutetruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:11 AM
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originally posted by: theabsolutetruth
a reply to: ~Lucidity

The American government rewriting the history of the American people is tedious, disgusting and embarrassing.
If by "rewriting history" you mean the "amendment process"; that was written into the very fabric of American History.

You see, the founding fathers knew that societies change and evolve over time. And rather than forcing America to steadfastly hold onto what in the future could be considered archaic beliefs, they allowed for the laws of America to evolve in stride with society.



posted on Jul, 1 2015 @ 10:11 AM
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a reply to: Logarock

What's clear is that politics are supposed to stay out of the church as ordered by 501(c)3 status. That is 100% clear in regards to the stipulations granted them by tax exempt status. It is also clear that there are no provisions saying that churches don't have to pay taxes.

Y'all have just gotten so used to the privilege that you believe it is a right.



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